TG Agenda - Dropped Round Retrieval

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

Sorry you feel insulted. We have an older group of shooters, many are first time to any shooting sport, we don't pick up magazines, and our holsters are not double retention rigs. By not allowing shooters to pick up ammo off the ground I feel we would save them the embarassment of aquiring a 170 penalty or dropped pistol penalty. I've been shooting along time, and enjoy helping new shooters, I don't like penalizing shooters. Picking up dropped ammo off a table or prop is one thing, grabbing a round off the ground is another.

 

 

 

Continuing with the same insulting comments does not advance your cause. I, as an adult, am capable of admitting to my errors and accepting the consequences. I don't need your protection, thank you. If someone is so upset over receiving an appropriate penalty that they need protecting, I would argue that they are so mentally unstable that they shouldn't be handling loaded guns in the first place.

Wow!

 

Although I do not agree with Assassin or keeping the rule, I do not find his post insulting. Def. Insult: "to treat or speak to insolently or with contemptuous rudeness; affront."

 

However, I have heard horror stories about older, experienced shooters, who are new to CAS, and their breaking the 170. I've witnessed a few. It never involved picking up a dropped round. I've mostly found that inexperienced shooters are the most cautious.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Bones Z]

 

 

Well, that's curious; I thought you'd want to discuss this. This is a forum; you seem to think specious is a dirty or insulting term and it is not. You said above, that you don't wish to discuss this, yet you've continued elaborating on your earlier comments. Anyway, you made the call. We'll just wait and see what happens in January..

 

You should not use words you don't understand. From the on-line Webster's dictionary, pay special attention to the synonyms:

 

spe·cious

adjective \ˈspē-shəs\

: falsely appearing to be fair, just, or right : appearing to be true but actually false

Full Definition of SPECIOUS

1 obsolete : showy

2 having deceptive attraction or allure

3 having a false look of truth or genuineness : sophistic <specious reasoning>

 

Synonyms

beguiling, deceitful, deceiving, deluding, delusive, delusory, fallacious, false, misleading, deceptive

Basically you accused the man of attempting to deceive the rest of us with his comments, and purposefully lying to us for nefarious purposes. Not in the man's character IMO. When are you going to apologize for insulting him in public?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I agree with Bones Z this time.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I agree with Bones Z this time.

+ a bazillion quadtrillion

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I've been holding that little box that goes beep for a long time. During that time, I don't recall an incident of someone attempting to pick up a round from the ground. It's possible that it has happened and I don't remember because I would have instinctively told them to retrieve a round from their belt...because that's what makes sense. Had they gone to the ground and it looked as if they were going to break the 170, I would have stopped them from doing so. After all, a TO is supposed to be within an arm's length of the shooter. IMO, if a TO a can't prevent someone from breaking the 170 in that situation, they need to hand the timer to someone else.

 

Have I seen someone retrieve a dropped round from a table? Many, many times. Have I ever seen unsafe gun handling while it is being done? Never. When it happens, it happens quick and the peanut gallery's reaction, " You can't pick it up!", normally confuses the shooter and makes them, more likely to do something that is unsafe. In the meantime, they've already picked it up, thus earning the penalty under the current rule. What is accomplished? Nothing.

 

If this rule is done away with (and I hope it is), it will not change the way I "safely assist the shooter through the course of fire" in the sense that I'll still encourage them to go to their belt if it goes to the ground just as I'd advise a new shooter to think about transitions and not wrapping their thumb on the rifle. If their belt is empty and they must go to the ground, I'll be doing my job...just like I do now when the stage is completed and they can by the current rules bend to the ground with gun(s) in hand, and retrieve those very shells without penalty that we just a moment ago freaked out over.

 

Here's a thought: Why would someone retrieve a dropped round the first place? Because their gun is EMPTY. If the TO fails to do their job and allows them to break the 170, the result would be a SDQ which is much more memorable than a minor safety. Raise your hand if you don't remember every SDQ you've ever had.

 

The sky is not falling.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

PWB,

You've made these same arguments before, lobbying for this rule change. I believe your overall argument for this change is specious...that is, superficially it appears to make sense, but the logic is flawed and the argument wrong. You deserve a good rebuttal. I'll deliver that when I can get to a good Internet connection with my computer rather than using this phone.

Cat Brules

Cat-You step'd deep into 'it' here

You'd do good to reword your post.

To call a long standing member(PWB)actions "specious" is an unforgivable insult of the lowest nature.

Think it over------

 

OLG

[Marauder SASS #13056]

SASS worked just fine for many years before this rule (in the early 2000's).

 

And it will work fine once again, without it. Even a little better without it.

[Shootin Straight]

I would like to see the rule changed to allow dropped ammo to be picked up and used -

[Captain Bill Burt]

I've been holding that little box that goes beep for a long time. During that time, I don't recall an incident of someone attempting to pick up a round from the ground. It's possible that it has happened and I don't remember because I would have instinctively told them to retrieve a round from their belt...because that's what makes sense. Had they gone to the ground and it looked as if they were going to break the 170, I would have stopped them from doing so. After all, a TO is supposed to be within an arm's length of the shooter. IMO, if a TO a can't prevent someone from breaking the 170 in that situation, they need to hand the timer to someone else.

 

Have I seen someone retrieve a dropped round from a table? Many, many times. Have I ever seen unsafe gun handling while it is being done? Never. When it happens, it happens quick and the peanut gallery's reaction, " You can't pick it up!", normally confuses the shooter and makes them, more likely to do something that is unsafe. In the meantime, they've already picked it up, thus earning the penalty under the current rule. What is accomplished? Nothing.

 

If this rule is done away with (and I hope it is), it will not change the way I "safely assist the shooter through the course of fire" in the sense that I'll still encourage them to go to their belt if it goes to the ground just as I'd advise a new shooter to think about transitions and not wrapping their thumb on the rifle. If their belt is empty and they must go to the ground, I'll be doing my job...just like I do now when the stage is completed and they can by the current rules bend to the ground with gun(s) in hand, and retrieve those very shells without penalty that we just a moment ago freaked out over.

 

Here's a thought: Why would someone retrieve a dropped round the first place? Because their gun is EMPTY. If the TO fails to do their job and allows them to break the 170, the result would be a SDQ which is much more memorable than a minor safety. Raise your hand if you don't remember every SDQ you've ever had.

 

The sky is not falling.

+1

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I've been holding that little box that goes beep for a long time. During that time, I don't recall an incident of someone attempting to pick up a round from the ground. It's possible that it has happened and I don't remember because I would have instinctively told them to retrieve a round from their belt...because that's what makes sense. Had they gone to the ground and it looked as if they were going to break the 170, I would have stopped them from doing so. After all, a TO is supposed to be within an arm's length of the shooter. IMO, if a TO a can't prevent someone from breaking the 170 in that situation, they need to hand the timer to someone else.

 

Have I seen someone retrieve a dropped round from a table? Many, many times. Have I ever seen unsafe gun handling while it is being done? Never. When it happens, it happens quick and the peanut gallery's reaction, " You can't pick it up!", normally confuses the shooter and makes them, more likely to do something that is unsafe. In the meantime, they've already picked it up, thus earning the penalty under the current rule. What is accomplished? Nothing.

 

If this rule is done away with (and I hope it is), it will not change the way I "safely assist the shooter through the course of fire" in the sense that I'll still encourage them to go to their belt if it goes to the ground just as I'd advise a new shooter to think about transitions and not wrapping their thumb on the rifle. If their belt is empty and they must go to the ground, I'll be doing my job...just like I do now when the stage is completed and they can by the current rules bend to the ground with gun(s) in hand, and retrieve those very shells without penalty that we just a moment ago freaked out over.

 

Here's a thought: Why would someone retrieve a dropped round the first place? Because their gun is EMPTY. If the TO fails to do their job and allows them to break the 170, the result would be a SDQ which is much more memorable than a minor safety. Raise your hand if you don't remember every SDQ you've ever had.

 

The sky is not falling.

+ a bazillion!!!!!

 

BAZINGA!!!!

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

I've been holding that little box that goes beep for a long time. During that time, I don't recall an incident of someone attempting to pick up a round from the ground. It's possible that it has happened and I don't remember because I would have instinctively told them to retrieve a round from their belt...because that's what makes sense. Had they gone to the ground and it looked as if they were going to break the 170, I would have stopped them from doing so. After all, a TO is supposed to be within an arm's length of the shooter. IMO, if a TO a can't prevent someone from breaking the 170 in that situation, they need to hand the timer to someone else.

 

Have I seen someone retrieve a dropped round from a table? Many, many times. Have I ever seen unsafe gun handling while it is being done? Never. When it happens, it happens quick and the peanut gallery's reaction, " You can't pick it up!", normally confuses the shooter and makes them, more likely to do something that is unsafe. In the meantime, they've already picked it up, thus earning the penalty under the current rule. What is accomplished? Nothing.

 

If this rule is done away with (and I hope it is), it will not change the way I "safely assist the shooter through the course of fire" in the sense that I'll still encourage them to go to their belt if it goes to the ground just as I'd advise a new shooter to think about transitions and not wrapping their thumb on the rifle. If their belt is empty and they must go to the ground, I'll be doing my job...just like I do now when the stage is completed and they can by the current rules bend to the ground with gun(s) in hand, and retrieve those very shells without penalty that we just a moment ago freaked out over.

 

Here's a thought: Why would someone retrieve a dropped round the first place? Because their gun is EMPTY. If the TO fails to do their job and allows them to break the 170, the result would be a SDQ which is much more memorable than a minor safety. Raise your hand if you don't remember every SDQ you've ever had.

 

The sky is not falling.

After 4 pages, probable the best sensible post on this topic. Great post Buck. MT

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I've been holding that little box that goes beep for a long time. During that time, I don't recall an incident of someone attempting to pick up a round from the ground. It's possible that it has happened and I don't remember because I would have instinctively told them to retrieve a round from their belt...because that's what makes sense. Had they gone to the ground and it looked as if they were going to break the 170, I would have stopped them from doing so. After all, a TO is supposed to be within an arm's length of the shooter. IMO, if a TO a can't prevent someone from breaking the 170 in that situation, they need to hand the timer to someone else.

 

Have I seen someone retrieve a dropped round from a table? Many, many times. Have I ever seen unsafe gun handling while it is being done? Never. When it happens, it happens quick and the peanut gallery's reaction, " You can't pick it up!", normally confuses the shooter and makes them, more likely to do something that is unsafe. In the meantime, they've already picked it up, thus earning the penalty under the current rule. What is accomplished? Nothing.

 

If this rule is done away with (and I hope it is), it will not change the way I "safely assist the shooter through the course of fire" in the sense that I'll still encourage them to go to their belt if it goes to the ground just as I'd advise a new shooter to think about transitions and not wrapping their thumb on the rifle. If their belt is empty and they must go to the ground, I'll be doing my job...just like I do now when the stage is completed and they can by the current rules bend to the ground with gun(s) in hand, and retrieve those very shells without penalty that we just a moment ago freaked out over.

 

Here's a thought: Why would someone retrieve a dropped round the first place? Because their gun is EMPTY. If the TO fails to do their job and allows them to break the 170, the result would be a SDQ which is much more memorable than a minor safety. Raise your hand if you don't remember every SDQ you've ever had.

 

The sky is not falling.

I can think of multiple occasions where a loaded gun would be in hand while attempting to load additional ammo (97 shooter who loads 2, rifle or pistol reload on the clock), but the sky still won't fall. The rule could go away with no harm done.

 

CR

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

Hello,

 

Let me set the record straight on what the TGs did and did not do last year.

 

According to straw polls it would not pass as written and would pass if something was added that the dropped round could not be picked up off the ground. The ROC was charged to come up with appropriate wording. The next day, they said they could not do decide on how to define the ground. For example, would a two x four on the ground be the ground or not. Therefore, the wording was not changed and the item did not pass.

 

Maybe we should forget the "ground" and change the verbiage that the shooter may pick up dropped rounds as long as he/she does not need to bend over to do so. I don't know what would be the best wording for a change that would be acceptable to the clubs that voted no.

 

That said, my club wanted me to vote for the rule as it was written, I agreed, and would have done so. However, the straw poll indicated that a 2/3 majority would not approve it as written, which was borne out by the vote. I do not know that anything new has been offered to change their minds. PaleWolf wasn't there to explain things and will be there this year (I hope). He may be more convincing about the validity of the change this year.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS It gets tiresome to hear the TGs are the problem when things do not go the way some Wire posters want. TGs are charged with voting their club's wishes. Blame the clubs if you must blame anyone.

+1 on the TG's getting the bad rap for doing what their club members want them to do. If you have strong feelings about the rule talk to your TG and have your club members do the same. Then the TG should vote appropriately.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I would ask TGs to get two opinions from their clubs on this,,,

 

1. being able to pick up a round from anywhere....

 

and if they don't like that,

 

2. from anywhere except the ground...

 

that way you could be prepared to vote either way,,,,,

[Grizzly Dave]

CC, that kinda goes back to what happened last time with then not being able to quickly define 'ground'

 

Lets say Shooter may retrieve dropped round from anywhere knee level and above. And before anyone asks, knee level is defined as the shooters knees when standing full upright.

[Most Wanted]

I would ask TGs to get two opinions from their clubs on this,,,

 

1. being able to pick up a round from anywhere....

 

and if they don't like that,

 

2. from anywhere except the ground...

 

that way you could be prepared to vote either way,,,,,

From what I understand that's exactly what happened last time and ground was hard to define. The only reason I could see somebody going all the way to the ground would be because they have none left on their belt. As I said earlier pass it as written. Or like you said and is better just drop the rule from the book altogether.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I would ask TGs to get two opinions from their clubs on this,,,

 

1. being able to pick up a round from anywhere....

 

and if they don't like that,

 

2. from anywhere except the ground...

 

that way you could be prepared to vote either way,,,,,

Cheyenne,

 

That would be great, except we'd run into the inevitable discussion about where the ground is and who decides. The subjectivness of a rule written that way could put us in the same mess as the closed lever rule. I think it either has to go away or stay as is. No in between with a "gray" area.

 

CR

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

ANYWHERE BUT the dirt wud be ok!! the ground is the stuff we walk on,,,,, ie, dirt, gravel, boardwalk,,,,,

 

either that or all or nothing,,,, if that wud pass great, but if not, then why not have an out???

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

"as long as you don't bend over".... define bend over to someone who starts in a low wrestling stance

"as long as it's not on the ground"....define ground if one part is on the edge of the boardwalk and the other is in the gravel

"as long as it's on a prop"....define 'on' when the round is stuck on end in the corner of a rack/table or against a leg.

 

The sky may not be falling, but this issue will cause extreme exegenic heating conditions and promote climate change as it will be a cold day in hell before you get 2/3's of the TG's to vote for anything as simple as "SAFE TO RETRIEVE- break the 170 and it's a SDQ."

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

(can be retieved as long as it is not touching the GROUND) only asked for a plan b ...... in case "all" doesn't pass

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

how about don't break 170 and your good to go,break 170 and you just bought a SDQ

 

Hope it passes AO

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

(can be retieved as long as it is not touching the GROUND) only asked for a plan b ...... in case "all" doesn't pass

Why say anything about retrieving rounds at all? Remove ALL wording about retrieving rounds. If the shooter breaks any other rules, then ding them for that.

 

Fillmore

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I only throw that out as Plan B,,,,, in case the original won't fly!

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

Why say anything about retrieving rounds at all? Remove ALL wording about retrieving rounds. If the shooter breaks any other rules, then ding them for that.

 

Fillmore

+1 Then there is no verbiage to argue/ interpret

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Why say anything about retrieving rounds at all? Remove ALL wording about retrieving rounds. If the shooter breaks any other rules, then ding them for that.

 

Fillmore

 

Same reason that the "if the closing was caused by the shooter " is being added to the "Action Open" rewrite

...if it's NOT written into the rules regarding "dropped or ejected" ammo, SOMEONE will "get confused" as to what the call is when that happens.

BTW - The rule also specifies that the round may be "SAFELY" recovered OR replaced...

"If the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot."

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"SAFELY" has already been explained...that is, without breaking ANY existing SAFETY regs (e.g. violating the 170º rule).

Those who are insisting that is "too subjective" are missing the point entirely.

[Pick]

At the risk of making a specious argument, I agree with PWB, "safely" seems to be the key word here. If you can't do it safely, don't. If you don't do it safely, suffer the penalty. Seems pretty clear.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

The point I'm trying to make is this...Pretend for a moment that we are inventing CAS today. Let's further pretend we don't care if shooters pick up dropped or ejected rounds so long as the don't break any REAL safety related rules, like breaking the 170. Why put any wordings pertaining to dropped or ejected rounds in the rules at all. If it's not mentioned as a violation of any rules than it must be allowed, sorta like the Constitution.

Here's a ridiculous example. There's nothing in the rules pertaining to safely moving from one shooting position to another. It doesn't say you have to walk, it doesn't say you can't run, and it doesn't say you can't walk backwards. So, is it legal to walk backwards? Yes. But what if you are walking backwards from one position to another and you trip, fall, and your pistols pop out of your holsters to the ground. Well, there's a rule covering that. We don't have any words in the Handbook pertaining to safely walking backwards, it's not necessary. It's a given that everything we do while shooting should be done safely.

Let's make the Handbook smaller when we can, not bigger.

 

Fillmore

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The agenda item "as written" was approved by the Wild Bunch.

Attempting to amend the agenda item at this point is counterproductive...IMO.

The proposed revision WILL make the SHB (and RO1) "smaller" when compared to the current versions.

 

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” from any firearm is considered “dead” and may not be SAFELY recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be or replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot.

Staged ammunition dropped back where it was staged is not considered “dead.”

 

 

For example, if a round of shotgun ammo is dropped while loading, the round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or counted as a miss. No attempt may be made by the shooter, or any other person, to pick up the dropped round for use on that stage. Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss of muzzle direction control. Once the dropped round leaves the shooter’s hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round. Stop the shooter if he tries to recover the dead round. It is a 10-second Minor Safety Violation if the shooter retrieves the round during the stage.

Staged rounds that are dropped back where they were staged are NOT considered “dead.” For example, if a round is staged in a box on a table and it is dropped back into the box, it may be picked up. If it falls onto the table, it may not be picked up. Rounds safely “placed” onto a prop from their original loading area are not considered “dropped” rounds as long as recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control

 

Minor Safety Penalties

• Not leaving a long gun action open at the end of the shooting string or before the next firearm is fired.

• Leaving empty or live rounds in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

• Not returning revolvers to leather unless otherwise specified.

• Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break 170° safety rule or sweep anyone.

• Retrieving a dropped “dead” round.

• Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange.

 

 

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

 

The agenda item "as written" was approved by the Wild Bunch.

Attempting to amend the agenda item at this point is counterproductive...IMO.

The proposed revision WILL make the SHB (and RO1) "smaller" when compared to the current versions.

 

 

 

Point made.

 

Fillmore

[Pick]

Next shooter......

[Curly Red Ryder]

"SAFELY" has already been explained...that is, without breaking ANY existing SAFETY regs (e.g. violating the 170º rule).

Those who are insisting that is "too subjective" are missing the point entirely.

 

Add this word and explanation to the RO1 handbook Glossary of terms and it'll be understood by all shooters!!

 

Post#133 sounds clear and easy to understand and follow.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

My vote is still YES! Needless, redundant rule.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

To be clear - I am for it as written. Thanks for the explanation.

 

CR

[PECOS PETE, SASS#16437]

Every game has a set of rules. Left your hand or ejected round is gone - move on, is as simple as it gets. 4 pages and not the first reason why this a problem.