TG Agenda - Dropped Round Retrieval

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

Let me set the record straight on what the TGs did and did not do last year.

 

According to straw polls it would not pass as written and would pass if something was added that the dropped round could not be picked up off the ground. The ROC was charged to come up with appropriate wording. The next day, they said they could not do decide on how to define the ground. For example, would a two x four on the ground be the ground or not. Therefore, the wording was not changed and the item did not pass.

 

Maybe we should forget the "ground" and change the verbiage that the shooter may pick up dropped rounds as long as he/she does not need to bend over to do so. I don't know what would be the best wording for a change that would be acceptable to the clubs that voted no.

 

That said, my club wanted me to vote for the rule as it was written, I agreed, and would have done so. However, the straw poll indicated that a 2/3 majority would not approve it as written, which was borne out by the vote. I do not know that anything new has been offered to change their minds. PaleWolf wasn't there to explain things and will be there this year (I hope). He may be more convincing about the validity of the change this year.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS It gets tiresome to hear the TGs are the problem when things do not go the way some Wire posters want. TGs are charged with voting their club's wishes. Blame the clubs if you must blame anyone.

[Cat Brules]

 

Since you consider my reasoning "specious", I have no intention of debating the issue with you on the Wire.

 

How do you plan to "rebut" the fact that a related sport (WBAS) allows retrieval of dropped ammo (including loaded magazines) with NO PENALTY...and there have been no reports of a rash of "safety violations" as a result?

 

WBAS Handbook p.24

 

 

Well, that's curious; I thought you'd want to discuss this. This is a forum; you seem to think specious is a dirty or insulting term and it is not. You said above, that you don't wish to discuss this, yet you've continued elaborating on your earlier comments. Anyway, you made the call. We'll just wait and see what happens in January..

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

I like it. It makes it less confusing for staged ammo stages. Muzzle control is King. That rule tops everything else.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

 

 

Well, that's curious; I thought you'd want to discuss this. This is a forum; you seem to think specious is a dirty or insulting term and it is not. You said above, that you don't wish to discuss this, yet you've continued elaborating on your earlier comments. Anyway, you made the call. We'll just wait and see what happens in January

Palewolf can stand up for himself, but your claim that calling the view of your opposing side "specious" is to dismiss their argument as without merit. You know, like a slap in the face. Very dismissive and rude.

 

CR

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Palewolf can stand up for himself, but your claim that calling the view of your opposing side "specious" is to dismiss their argument as without merit. You know, like a slap in the face. Very dismissive and rude.

 

CR

+1000,,,, I had to look that word up,,,, yup, what CR and PWB sed!!!!!

 

comment was rude and without merit!!!!

 

I know, that comment from CB was specious!!!

[Knarley Bob]

As long as it STAYS AWAY, and don't come back!!!!!!!!!!

More harm will be done if one has to figger out if today the rule has been re-peeled, or today is when it's not.

 

Knarley

[Rye Miles #13621]

CAT and others who want this rule to remain: Have you ever seen someone break the 170 while retrieving a dropped round?????

YES!!! It was at a Wed. shoot and I forget who it was but it was a new shooter and he was all confused but I have seen it happen!

[Most Wanted]

I've seen people break the 170 by moving with a gun , drawing a pistol , holstering a pistol , picking up a long gun , restageing a long gun , leaving the loading table , leaving the stage and probably some other circumstances I can't remember. But what I haven't seen is someone breaking the 170 retrieving a dropped round and Yes I have seen many retrieved even though it's against the rules. Sooo Yeah this rule should Gooo.

[Key Hay]

At a wild bunch match I jacked out a shotgun round. It rolled off the table and onto the ground. I reached down, pick it up and used it because I didn't have a spare on my body. Now my Pistol was sitting on a bail with the slide locked back so I wasn't worried about my pistol falling out of my holster.

 

As far as Cowboy, if the rule is changed I still will not use a dropped round. I spend enough time learning specific retrieves. I'm not gonna start practicing grabbing a discarded round cause there's too many possibilities.

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

Why should the rule change just because it's allowed in WB. If we make all the rules the same it opens up more opportunities for another discipline to come in and pilfer our members in ala Western 3gun!

The rule has worked since inception just like the 2nd Amendment, and none of us are looking to change that are we!

Let's leave it be.

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

and by the way... I'll pay anyones way to EOT who can make a spent round left in a long gun fire again.. without reloading it.

 

Snakebite

I once visited a universe where that could happen, but it was long ago and I can't find it anymore.

As I see it the only problem would be not everyone making the same call. One persons "not safe " could be anothers "no call." As the rule stands there is no ambiguity. Having said that, I'm in favor of the change, fumble fingers that I am.

[Sawed-Off]

 

 

Well, that's curious; I thought you'd want to discuss this. This is a forum; you seem to think specious is a dirty or insulting term and it is not. You said above, that you don't wish to discuss this, yet you've continued elaborating on your earlier comments. Anyway, you made the call. We'll just wait and see what happens in January..

 

Cat, I for one would be interested in your views, as you seem to have some specific points to make.

[Gawd Awful]

There are many more CAS shooters than WBAS shooters, most WBAS shooters are seasoned shooters. Therefore, they make fewer mistakes ; breaking the 170. Comparing CAS to WBAS probably not the best example.

Ok fine how about USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challange, NSSF rim fire Challange (formally Ruger rim fire Challange) 3 gun nation (and almost all independent 3 gun matches) for examples???? All of the above allow retrieval of dropped ammunition, and all of the above have new shooters entering all the time

 

It's insulting to assume that CAS shooters are incapable of basic range safety and common sense with firearms.

[Gawd Awful]

Why should the rule change just because it's allowed in WB. If we make all the rules the same it opens up more opportunities for another discipline to come in and pilfer our members in ala Western 3gun!

The rule has worked since inception just like the 2nd Amendment, and none of us are looking to change that are we!

Let's leave it be.

Most people I know who shoot W3G shoot SASS as well.

 

Perhaps you should try looking at it this way, if we set our rules in line with MOST OTHER SHOOTING DISCIPLINES it will be easier and more natural for other shooters to be able to migrate to SASS and learn how much fun we have??

[Assassin]

Ok fine how about USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challange, NSSF rim fire Challange (formally Ruger rim fire Challange) 3 gun nation (and almost all independent 3 gun matches) for examples???? All of the above allow retrieval of dropped ammunition, and all of the above have new shooters entering all the time

 

It's insulting to assume that CAS shooters are incapable of basic range safety and common sense with firearms.

 

Sorry you feel insulted. We have an older group of shooters, many are first time to any shooting sport, we don't pick up magazines, and our holsters are not double retention rigs. By not allowing shooters to pick up ammo off the ground I feel we would save them the embarassment of aquiring a 170 penalty or dropped pistol penalty. I've been shooting along time, and enjoy helping new shooters, I don't like penalizing shooters. Picking up dropped ammo off a table or prop is one thing, grabbing a round off the ground is another.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

This discussion really surprises me (not). Just because something is legal does not mean it will become a commonplace practice. I don't understand the reluctance by some to do away with this redundant and unnecessary rule. Just because I CAN pick up a dropped round off the ground and use it with out penalty does NOT mean I will do so. Most of our shooters CAN'T bend over and pick up rounds off the ground. The ones who can bend over probably know it is much faster to pull a replacement round off the belt or pocket.

 

Nor do I understand the argument about not being able to adequately define a safe act should the dropped round rule go away. Come on, really? A safe act is one in which the 170 rule is not broken. Period. It don't get much more simple than that, boys and girls.

 

This rule is redundant. It makes no sense. I can pick up a dropped round off a table, hay bale or other surface IF said ammo was staged there first. However, if I pull ammo off my belt and drop it on said prop, then I am penalized should I retrieve it.

 

DO AWAY WITH THE DROPPED AMMO RULE. Please!!!

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Many of the SASS rules are written to protect us from ourselves through an over abundance of caution. As a longtime SASS participant and LEO rangemaster, I find the argument about new or older shooters making more errors mostly without merit. Most newer shooters listen and follow given safety protocol better while many of the highly experienced shooters may have developed bad habits over a period of time.

 

Convoluting the rule book with unnecessary rules is counter productive when a given practice has been shown to be safe in other disciplines. Picking up dropped ammo is not a unsafe practice with rules to address any otherwise unsafe act.

 

I am in favor of removing the old rule and allowing retrieval of dropped rounds.

[Chance Ramsay]

Seams that last year we spent a lot of time trying to find out where the ground was to pick the round up from. I will not be there in Jan. so I hope you have better luck. I am still for it

[Oklahomabound]

...I have w***ked through the pro's and con's of the TG item and although technically I want to support it, I can not. I visualize too many muzzle control issues coming out of this and just don't think this particular sport needs to do away with the dropped round being dead.

 

...lots of good discussion and I can defend either position...

 

...NO is my vote...

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

...I have w***ked through the pro's and con's of the TG item and although technically I want to support it, I can not. I visualize too many muzzle control issues coming out of this and just don't think this particular sport needs to do away with the dropped round being dead.

 

...lots of good discussion and I can defend either position...

 

...NO is my vote...

 

But what say the club you represent?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

...I have w***ked through the pro's and con's of the TG item and although technically I want to support it, I can not. I visualize too many muzzle control issues coming out of this and just don't think this particular sport needs to do away with the dropped round being dead.

 

...lots of good discussion and I can defend either position...

 

...NO is my vote...

How many times have you had to penalize a shooter for retrieving a dropped round?

 

How many times have you've seen the 170 broken at the same time?

 

My answers......too many......never

 

Stan

[McCandless]

We have rules against unsafe gun handling. We have rules against breaking the 170. That's enough! Adding a penalty to prevent a penalty, or a rule to cover something that's covered by another rule; is just like the anti-gun people piling on more laws, making it illegal to act in a way that was illegal already.

 

Enforce the rules we absolutely need, get rid of the dross.

Enforce the laws (rules) we already have, don't add more.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

 

Sorry you feel insulted. We have an older group of shooters, many are first time to any shooting sport, we don't pick up magazines, and our holsters are not double retention rigs. By not allowing shooters to pick up ammo off the ground I feel we would save them the embarassment of aquiring a 170 penalty or dropped pistol penalty. I've been shooting along time, and enjoy helping new shooters, I don't like penalizing shooters. Picking up dropped ammo off a table or prop is one thing, grabbing a round off the ground is another.

Around here we also shoot WB, most of use well over 60, have not had a single problem picking up dropped rounds or magazines. If we must save ourselves the embarassment of a penalty then we need a new rule to stop writing stages moving latreal with a long gun . The most corrective action I've had to take of the 170 is moving left or right with a shotgun. A simple "Muzzle!! Muzzle!!" usually takes care of it

 

...I have w***ked through the pro's and con's of the TG item and although technically I want to support it, I can not. I visualize too many muzzle control issues coming out of this and just don't think this particular sport needs to do away with the dropped round being dead.

 

...lots of good discussion and I can defend either position...

 

...NO is my vote...

See note above "Muzzle!! Muzzle!!"

 

We have rules against unsafe gun handling. We have rules against breaking the 170. That's enough! Adding a penalty to prevent a penalty, or a rule to cover something that's covered by another rule; is just like the anti-gun people piling on more laws, making it illegal to act in a way that was illegal already.

 

Enforce the rules we absolutely need, get rid of the dross.

Enforce the laws (rules) we already have, don't add more.

What Doc the Duck said.........Ta Daaaa!!

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

But what say the club you represent?

He moved to another area and is no longer a TG.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Basically I'd rather not see a change ( as I mentioned) however in supporting my pards locally if that's what they want I hope it goes through. Those who invest much in this sport are better suited than me to remark on the issue anyway.... Good luck.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Basically I'd rather not see a change ( as I mentioned) however in supporting my pards locally if that's what they want I hope it goes through. Those who invest much in this sport are better suited than me to remark on the issue anyway.... Good luck.

 

 

I am kind of like you.

 

Don't mind it the way it is. As I see no reason to have to reach down and pick one up when I got more

in my belt.

 

But if others feel that strong on it. I don't care much either way.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

How many times have you had to penalize a shooter for retrieving a dropped round? Not many, most of the time shooter was told after retrieving dropped rd to drop it and not use it penalty usually not properly enforced

 

How many times have you've seen the 170 broken at the same time? never, not even close

 

My answers......too many......never

 

Stan

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

Following are two examples involving this rule or lack there of.

 

One

 

I just remembered something that happened at a Plainsman side match. The shooter somehow knocked all of his rifle ammo on the ground. We shoot single shot rifles, so you carry the ammo with you.

 

He did not have any guns in hand and could have bent over and scooped up the ammo safely, if not for the existing rule.

 

Someone, yelled to get more ammo from his cart. Unfortunately, he had his loaded pistols in his holsters. He got a SDQ.

 

Two

 

Yesterday at WBAS, I dropped a SG shell on one stage and a magazine on another.

 

As I had plenty of spare SG shells, I didn't pick it up, although I could have done so safely by placing my empty SG on the prop.

 

The magazine fell on a prop that was about waist level and, I needed it to complete the stage. So, I picked it up. The same could go for someone who dropped a SG shell. If they could retrieve it fast enough or were going for a clean match, they might wish to do so.

 

My Conclusion

 

I think removing a penalty that doesn't address the real problem, muzzle control, in this case and giving the shooter responsibility for their actions is the fair thing to do and does not compromise safety.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS The club I represent voted, last year, to get rid of the penalty for picking up dropped ammo.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Basically I'd rather not see a change ( as I mentioned) however in supporting my pards locally if that's what they want I hope it goes through. Those who invest much in this sport are better suited than me to remark on the issue anyway.... Good luck.

Well, Phooey,,,,, no use for thit wore out rope I got!!!!!

 

Luv ya Gunner!!!

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

We have rules against unsafe gun handling. We have rules against breaking the 170. That's enough! Adding a penalty to prevent a penalty, or a rule to cover something that's covered by another rule; is just like the anti-gun people piling on more laws, making it illegal to act in a way that was illegal already.

 

Enforce the rules we absolutely need, get rid of the dross.

Enforce the laws (rules) we already have, don't add more.

Well said. The 170 rule already covers this.

 

I've already emailed my TG with my wishes on this: drop this rule!

 

Laz

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

I'm for the change AND against the change. If the rule can be changed to allow the retrieval of rounds without the ambiguity of the term "Safely", them I am for it.

 

However, the ambiguity of the definition of "Safely" will prove to be problematic strictly in the terms of this rule.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

safely=without breaking the 170....

 

but if the rule is dun away with, why wud there be any wording????

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

I have presented this to one club so far and they said vote Yes.

 

KK

[Bones Z]

Personally, I believe the rule should go away. However, if shooters start picking up rounds off the ground and are charged with breaking the 170 and it becomes a frequent penalty, then I see it as a problem.

 

If they break the 170, they should be charged the appropriate penalty no matter what they were doing. Why is this only a problem if it happens while retrieving a dropped round?

[Bones Z]

 

Sorry you feel insulted. We have an older group of shooters, many are first time to any shooting sport, we don't pick up magazines, and our holsters are not double retention rigs. By not allowing shooters to pick up ammo off the ground I feel we would save them the embarassment of aquiring a 170 penalty or dropped pistol penalty. I've been shooting along time, and enjoy helping new shooters, I don't like penalizing shooters. Picking up dropped ammo off a table or prop is one thing, grabbing a round off the ground is another.

 

Continuing with the same insulting comments does not advance your cause. I, as an adult, am capable of admitting to my errors and accepting the consequences. I don't need your protection, thank you. If someone is so upset over receiving an appropriate penalty that they need protecting, I would argue that they are so mentally unstable that they shouldn't be handling loaded guns in the first place.