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Grumbling about an old "issue"


Phantom, SASS #54973

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I guess some of you Pards will either have to forgive me or just consider me a worm.

 

2011 at age 60, I shot and won top GF at the TN State.

2012 at age 61, I shot and won top Senior GF at the TN State, and actually finished higher than all other GFer's. (Rank scoring)

2013: didn't shoot TN State

 

2014 at age 63: This year, I could tell my game had improved alittle. I didn't really look over WHO was coming although I had seen some TOP names on the GF and SGF list. I signed up for GF and stuck with my decision.

Before it was over, there were 16 GF and 10 or more SGF who shot the TN State this past weekend.

 

I expected a good close match and it was a real 'Katie Bar The Doors' competition with:

Sgt. ELI, Lets Go, Hikes Point Hank, Koda Joe, Cassalong Hopidy, Kid Ziggy, Wes Outlaw, Badlands Bob, BLUFF, Slippery Stew, Bo Dacious, Birdshop Pete, Brada Tat Tat, Bushy Cap AND....one of my heros, Judge'm ALL Duncan. and quite a few others.

 

I finished well among some of these great shooters and actually my conscience is clear for 'stepping down' to shoot with the GFer's.

 

I had fun and it was competitive, as it should be. I surely hope my good GF Pards had fun also.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

So, if you are a SGF and shoot GF, who is the real SGF champion, who is the real GF champion? Widder, if you won GF at that match and shot against younger less experienced shooters, you took away an award that should have been theirs. There are fewer high end shooters in the younger categories, therefore it's easy to step down and take away someone's plaque, or buckle. Just look at the number of seniors and 49rs at EOT and WR, Phantom started this post just to stir the pot, have not seen a response from him..

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Widder is a great gunfighter and if I was as good I would shoot GF,not age based,just gunfighter.I don't understand what all of these post are about.I could move all over the place and shoot a lot of different Cats.I would not have anyone care if I move to their cat. because I would not keep anyone from winning.This game is to much fun and means to much to me for it to bother me about age.I am 71 and started way to late to be competitive.I just want to shoot GUNFIGHTER for as long as I can.Put me in kiddie gunfighter,teen gunfighter,gunfighter or paw paw gunfighter.Just let me play.I will never win a buckle or a car or even a hot wheel.I found out how I like to shoot put me where ever I can shoot GUNFIGHTER.

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So, if you are a SGF and shoot GF, who is the real SGF champion, who is the real GF champion? Widder, if you won GF at that match and shot against younger less experienced shooters, you took away an award that should have been there's theirs. There are fewer high end shooters in the younger categories, therefore it's easy to step down and take away someone's plaque, or buckle. Just look at the number of seniors and 49rs at EOT and WR, Phantom started this post just to stir the pot, have not seen a response from him..

 

Widder's situation re: GF vs SGF is different in that he did NOT drop down to a lower AGE-based category...he just chose to shoot in a shooting STYLE category with no age differential.

 

NO one is forced to shoot in an AGE-based category just because they qualify to do so by date of birth.

This includes Buckaroos, Young Guns and Juniors...with the correct firearms, the are ALLOWED to shoot in any NON AGE-based category if they so choose.

 

The issue being discussed, cussed and proposed is to change the regs for AGE-based categories (from Wrangler on up) to prevent them from moving DOWN into a lesser younger bracket ... for whatever reason.

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So, if you are a SGF and shoot GF, who is the real SGF champion, who is the real GF champion? Widder, if you won GF at that match and shot against younger less experienced shooters, you took away an award that should have been there's. There are fewer high end shooters in the younger categories, therefore it's easy to step down and take away someone's plaque, or buckle. Just look at the number of seniors and 49rs at EOT and WR, Phantom started this post just to stir the pot, have not seen a response from him..

Widder is a Gunfighter who chose not to ease into the age based offering with the same shooting style. Come to BP and quit fretting over it, we don't care how old you are and won't hold it against you if you happen to be older than the other entrants :P The buckles shines the same no matter your age, even if you need someone to lead you to the starting point :D

 

CR

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Oh my goodness...

 

Younger does not necessarily mean less experienced. Most folks I have seen come in to this game qualify for 49er or at the least Wrangler.

 

So by the line of thinking that younger is less experienced, Matt Black could move up to Cowboy if he wanted to, and while I qualify for 49er I can step down to Cowboy and by doing so I am some how disrespecting Matt Black and taking his awards? Don't want to think about Matt Black moving up? Put in the name Cobra Cat instead. Poor guy is so young and so inexperienced that he's only the current Colorado, US National, and World overall champion. Edit, I think I forgot regional overall champ, sorry Cobra.

 

Can I get an OY!

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So, if you are a SGF and shoot GF, who is the real SGF champion, who is the real GF champion? Widder, if you won GF at that match and shot against younger less experienced shooters, you took away an award that should have been there's. There are fewer high end shooters in the younger categories, therefore it's easy to step down and take away someone's plaque, or buckle. Just look at the number of seniors and 49rs at EOT and WR, Phantom started this post just to stir the pot, have not seen a response from him..

 

Younger:.....yes, to some extent.

 

less experience: I don't think so. Among some of those notorious GFer's were a few State Champs from their home states plus the 2013 TN State Champ.

 

Also among them was a World Champ FCGF.

 

GF is GF.....period. I've shot only 3 big matches as a SGF. Two of those was because one of my good friends was also shooting SGF, who is also a 2 time World Champ. At home and normally elsewhere, I shoot GF. Thats what I am.....and thats what SASS has allowed me to shoot.

 

..........Widder

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I'm 66 and refuse to shoot in aged based categories, of course I shoot FCD and there isn't an aged based category for that…..yet…. :P

Right on, RM. 68 last Aug. FCD all the way!

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Cherry picking is a form of bullying.

 

ARE YOU SERIOUS, wow

guess we can agree to disagree

 

forget the cherry picking iffen ya don't like it, simply look at the over all scores and see how your cherry picker placed overall if you even take the time

 

the wire goes from categories for all,

belt buckles for top ten of all categories no matter if anyone signed up

then switches gears to wanting to enforce age groups,,,,,,,wow, wow, wow

I can see protecting minor aged categories for crying out loud they cant even vote or go off to war yet

after that freedoms should be allowed as they already are in CAS

 

 

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Widder's situation re: GF vs SGF is different in that he did NOT drop down to a lower AGE-based category...he just chose to shoot in a shooting STYLE category with no age differential.

 

NO one is forced to shoot in an AGE-based category just because they qualify to do so by date of birth.

This includes Buckaroos, Young Guns and Juniors...with the correct firearms, the are ALLOWED to shoot in any NON AGE-based category if they so choose.

 

The issue being discussed, cussed and proposed is to change the regs for AGE-based categories (from Wrangler on up) to prevent them from moving DOWN into a lesser bracket ... for whatever reason.

PWB, if one is not over 60 one can't shoot in the SGF category, does that not make it an age based category? I know the rules as they are written. However, we can all agree there are problems with shooters that "cherry pick" a category in order to make a trip to the podium. Many just shoot within their own age based category or a style. I really don't care about myself, it's the up and coming shooters that get beat up on by a much better shooter that chooses to just move down for the sole purpose of getting another trinket. We discussed this particular question at our after shoot meeting on Saturday. One person said they would quit shooting if they had to shoot in a certain age bracket. Others, mostly older shooters did not like the possibility of forced age categories. Then the majority of the newer shooters 6-7 years liked the concept of having to shoot within age based cats. We all want SASS to grow and prosper, it just appears to me that by allowing older shooters to move down is doing a disservice to newer shooters and protecting older ones.

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I too am confused. We have GF & SGF and there is no age base? At least for GF. Then a 30 something person that shoots Gunfighter style can sign up for SGF? If that is the case then do away with one or the other and lump all GF into ,,,,,,GF catagory.

 

Or we could just semi break down each category into sub categories with about 13 shooters per category posse. As in, 49-wave1(first 13 that signed up),, then 49-wave2 (next 13 that signed up), then 49-wave3,,,, and so on. Then we could have 1,2,3 or++ 49catagory champion at that shooting event.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 21, 2014 - insult no more
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 21, 2014 - insult no more

 

 

So, if you are a SGF and shoot GF, who is the real SGF champion, who is the real GF champion? Widder, if you won GF at that match and shot against younger less experienced shooters, you took away an award that should have been theirs. There are fewer high end shooters in the younger categories, therefore it's easy to step down and take away someone's plaque, or buckle. Just look at the number of seniors and 49rs at EOT and WR, Phantom started this post just to stir the pot, have not seen a response from him..

Boulder Dash!! :wacko::blink:

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Oh my goodness...

 

Younger does not necessarily mean less experienced. Most folks I have seen come in to this game qualify for 49er or at the least Wrangler.

 

So by the line of thinking that younger is less experienced, Matt Black could move up to Cowboy if he wanted to, and while I qualify for 49er I can step down to Cowboy and by doing so I am some how disrespecting Matt Black and taking his awards? Don't want to think about Matt Black moving up? Put in the name Cobra Cat instead. Poor guy is so young and so inexperienced that he's only the current Colorado, US National, and World overall champion. Edit, I think I forgot regional overall champ, sorry Cobra.

 

Can I get an OY!

We are not worried about cherry picking (bullying) Matt or Cobra,,,, we are talking about bullying young grizzes that are 20 something.

 

I suppose you wouldn't mine if you were 20 something with your experience and about ten people from silver senior, senior, 49er came on down and pushed you to about 15th place.

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Only way to protect those new to the game and inexperienced is to have a category just for them, call it greenhorn or whatever you want. Anyone in the game longer than say 4 years is not allowed. But you'll still have a disparity in skills, some may have never picked up a gun before finding CAS, others may have been shooting 3 gun for years.

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However, we can all agree there are problems with shooters that "cherry pick" a category in order to make a trip to the podium.

 

 

oops

count me out, as I humbly disagree,

where is the problem,

what is the problem,

why is it a problem?

the award was probably already mandated by someone anyways

you sign up, pay your fees, and shoot accordingly using current rules and published materials

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We are not worried about cherry picking (bullying) Matt or Cobra,,,, we are talking about bullying young grizzes that are 20 something.

 

I suppose you wouldn't mine if you were 20 something with your experience and about ten people from silver senior, senior, 49er came on down and pushed you to about 15th place.

 

No different than it's been the last 6 years I've been in the game if I had been forced to be in 49er.

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Only way to protect those new to the game and inexperienced is

protect them from what

the reality that when you start you might not be the fastest?

with if I am 60 when I start?

or 49?

this just keeps getting more and more confusing for me to understand

but after all, I am still working with a commador 64 mother board

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No different than it's been the last 6 years I've been in the game if I had been forced to be in 49er.

that's my point, how do you feel about being forced?????

 

I like freedom of choice my ownself

 

the overall scores should tell folks what they want, no category breaks or age breaks at all

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GF is NOT age-based.

SGF IS.

That is my point...moving from a VOLUNTARY/OPTIONAL age-based category to a standard NON-age-based one is NOT what we're discussing...unless y'all insist on misreading what I posted (like THAT never happens here)

 

FWIW - As a 61 year-old GF shooter, I have the following options:

GF

SGF

FCGF (where offered)

BW (if I choose to dress for the occasion)

 

I can use either BP or smokeless (except in FCGF)... .38s, .44s or 45s...and an assortment of revolver/rifle/shotgun types.

 

Am I "cherry picking" if I make my choices based on who else is shooting the match?

Or am I exercising my right to "choose my category wisely"??

 

...and, if it doesn't affect YOU, why do YOU care?

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We are not worried about cherry picking (bullying) Matt or Cobra,,,, we are talking about bullying young grizzes that are 20 something.

 

I suppose you wouldn't mine if you were 20 something with your experience and about ten people from silver senior, senior, 49er came on down and pushed you to about 15th place.

 

No I wouldn't mind. Hell, I'd love to be 20 again.....with no experience. Experience doesn't happen by staying in the yard. Do you, maybe, think there is a reason that they call it the school of hard knocks?

 

Gotta grow up sometime, might as well grow up learning from the best.....even if it is the hard way.

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It will never pass

 

That's what I said about Obamacare. :huh:

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No I wouldn't mind. Hell, I'd love to be 20 again..

And go through all that crap again? Not me. :D

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protect them from what

the reality that when you start you might not be the fastest?

with if I am 60 when I start?

or 49?

this just keeps getting more and more confusing for me to understand

but after all, I am still working with a commador 64 mother board

 

From what I am reading, some feel like the newer younger shooters need to be protected from us old farts.

 

that's my point, how do you feel about being forced?????

 

I like freedom of choice my ownself

 

the overall scores should tell folks what they want, no category breaks or age breaks at all

 

Pretty much was my point, I dislike even hate being told what I must do, even when I fit into a mold, I hate being put in it.

 

As I have said before, pick a category and shoot. What annoys me is folks that change categories at the very last minute based on who shows up. But again, if that's what has to be allowed to allow choice, then so be it.

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Al dem congress, house and pres, and you were surprised, ?

I may have underestimated their stupidity. ;)

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From what I am reading, some feel like the newer younger shooters need to be protected from us old farts

 

That is what I can not understand, buckaroos and jr's are protected from anyone older ,,,,, already

 

So let us stay with the protection idea for a second

 

New shooter starts CAS at age 48, do they really need protection from shooters older than 49?

Others say it's Bullying? If a shooter drops down in age, shoots the same match under the same rules, only difference was age,

I am totally lost on that one but we are all welcome to our opinions

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So, if you are a SGF and shoot GF, who is the real SGF champion, who is the real GF champion? Widder, if you won GF at that match and shot against younger less experienced shooters, you took away an award that should have been theirs. There are fewer high end shooters in the younger categories, therefore it's easy to step down and take away someone's plaque, or buckle. Just look at the number of seniors and 49rs at EOT and WR, Phantom started this post just to stir the pot, have not seen a response from him..

 

And this has gone 4 pages already......................Seems he used one heck of a stir stick.... :P:lol::lol:

 

The Phantom strikes again. :lol:

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Ok, but just so I understand

Are you telling me that there were years when overall scores were never posted for shooters to look at?

Regardless of shooting styles / types that were available at those matches, just plain overall placings

Mike,

When this list was made, I was researching an article for the Chronicle, the gentleman helping me was going from memory, had looked and HQ didn't have "printed" records of the earliest years. Just who won the Men's and Ladies' overall... From '85 -'91 it was a "community" effort among several regulars as to who won what. From then to the present official records were consulted.

 

Yes, AFAIK, overall scores have been posted for each EOT. In fact, for at least those '85 - '91 years the raw times were posted at the end of day one, so those so inclined could pour over them and try to glean where they stood... in relation to their closest competitors... I seem to recall some wives had to physical DRAG their husbands away to squire them to the evenings festivities... mentioning no names, of course... what happens at EOT, doesn't stay at EOT, but spreads around like wildfire regardless of all attempts to keep it so!

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 21, 2014 - insult, nothing more
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 21, 2014 - insult, nothing more

PWB, if one is not over 60 one can't shoot in the SGF category, does that not make it an age based category? I know the rules as they are written. However, we can all agree there are problems with shooters that "cherry pick" a category in order to make a trip to the podium. Many just shoot within their own age based category or a style. I really don't care about myself, it's the up and coming shooters that get beat up on by a much better shooter that chooses to just move down for the sole purpose of getting another trinket. We discussed this particular question at our after shoot meeting on Saturday. One person said they would quit shooting if they had to shoot in a certain age bracket. Others, mostly older shooters did not like the possibility of forced age categories. Then the majority of the newer shooters 6-7 years liked the concept of having to shoot within age based cats. We all want SASS to grow and prosper, it just appears to me that by allowing older shooters to move down is doing a disservice to newer shooters and protecting older ones.

balderdash!!!!!! I dare you to complain to Hipshot about this silliness!!!

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Assn,

So you're not worried about a new shooter in the cowboy category that has to shoot with Cobra Cat or the new Senior that has to shoot against Hella Comin or the new 49r going against Phantom?

 

Age is irrelevant. Skills make the difference.

 

I see more new shooters showing up in 49r and older.

 

How does locking shooters into an age bracket really address the issue?

 

Stan

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So, who all on this threat is in favor of eliminated all age base categories?

 

It would solve the problem. Anyone could shoot in any category.

 

For that matter, lets cross gender categories since CAS isn't a strength base sport. Ladies have already proven they can shoot as good as the Men.

 

I am.

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So, who all on this threat is in favor of eliminated all age base categories?

 

It would solve the problem. Anyone could shoot in any category.

 

For that matter, lets cross gender categories since CAS isn't a strength base sport. Ladies have already proven they can shoot as good as the Men.

 

I am.

We all ready have total time scoring that does just what you are asking to solve in your above statement

Just look at TT overall scores, no category or gender sorting

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I think this is more about new shooters than anything. As I mentioned earlier there were only two shooting Cowboy at our monthly. I did notice that at our last monthly there were two new shooters in the Cowboy category. Knowing this, I can move up or out. I choose to move out and start practicing GF.

 

This to me let's the new shooters build confidence in themselves. Of course they may place at the very bottom of the list, but they will get a 2nd or 3rd place ribbon. At our next monthly, they will be the only two in the category since one CB will be going to regional and I will be in GF.

 

I think helping the new shooters build confidence in themselves instead of bullying them is best for this sport. A lot of our fastest shooters have stepped out of their categories and shoot Outrider together. This gives others a chance to do well and lets the faster shooters hone their skills against each other.

 

I don't think you want to shoot against some of the young shooters in Tennessee anyways. When I was there last month, they were blazing fast and one in particular was very polite.

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We all ready have total time scoring that does just what you are asking to solve in your above statement

Just look at TT overall scores, no category or gender sorting

Oh MM, TT is not complete.

 

Just imagine no age base categories.

 

Take the top 30 each male/female shooters and they can choose whatever category they wish.

 

Then think they get together on Facebook and all pick and choose and decide their categories (free grazing categories) , with the minimum amount in any one category at the match. Their goal is to win a Category Buckle and then of course, they actually have to compete against each other for Top Overall.

 

Then think they do the same routing the next match, but they just change categories. You know, musical chairs. After a few years, who every has the most big match category wins, is the super shooter.

 

Why Not? A lofty goal, how many different Category Buckles can you win at EOT/WR/CAC?

 

The Cowboy, Wrangler, 49er, Senior, SS, ES, Wrangler, CC, or any other two handed Category would be a snap. The GF and Duelist shooting style would be a bit more challenging, but doable since their foot speed/rifle/shotgun shooting could makeup for their slowerness in the handgun portion of the stage.

 

Would be interesting.

 

No problem.

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