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Grumbling about an old "issue"


Phantom, SASS #54973

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Squaw- grippers; age- based; mouse-phart; Wrangler-wearing; pump-shootin'; cross-draw holster; straw-hat goobers, should all go in a new category. The one true, time- tested, no frills, full cowboy; for only those who are WILLIN' to shoot real loads; hammered or levered S/G's; '73 rifles against any and all what shows up.

 

CLASSIC COWBOY! :D

 

Oh, what was the question? ;)

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Squaw- grippers; age- based; mouse-phart; Wrangler-wearing; pump-shootin'; cross-draw holster; straw-hat goobers, should all go in a new category. The one true, time- tested, no frills, full cowboy; for only those who are WILLIN' to shoot real loads; hammered or levered S/G's; '73 rifles against any and all what shows up.

 

CLASSIC COWBOY! :D

 

Oh, what was the question? ;)

 

The biggest falacy in what you say is the lack of a meaningful power factor. Ramp it up to WB numbers and lets go around again. ;)

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Granny, a cherry picker is someone who picks their category based on the competition being weak enough that they can place high in the category. In effect 'I would probably be 7th in 49er, but I know I can beat those three fellers in Wrangler, so I'm going to shoot Wrangler this match.'

 

A good explanation.

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I had no idea that I have been humiliating Cobra Cat all these years by shooting Cowboy and taking his awards. I will have to apologize to him when next we meet.

 

I beat Cobra Cat once, and only once.

 

I beat Evil Roy & Holly Terror once and only once, in a Top Gun Shoot off.

 

Be mindful,,,, I said once... :) But hay, it's something and no one else cares.

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Guest Tascosa Kid #90830

I shoot for fun only. I sign up as a senior duelist just to be in a category. Any one who has shot with me and has read my times know that at 67 yrs. I hear and see well and run like the wind! LOL It is fun to just shoot and to watch and support those who ARE fast and accurate. Not a matter of life or death game for me. Mostly any day above ground is a good one! Tascosa kid

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I shoot for fun only.

...and the rest of us don't? That's right, I'll take my zinc and bronzed medals down to the pawn shop and see what I'll get. :lol:

 

 

 

Fillmore

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Squaw- grippers; age- based; mouse-phart; Wrangler-wearing; pump-shootin'; cross-draw holster; straw-hat goobers, should all go in a new category. The one true, time- tested, no frills, full cowboy; for only those who are WILLIN' to shoot real loads; hammered or levered S/G's; '73 rifles against any and all what shows up.



CLASSIC COWBOY! :D



Oh, what was the question? ;)



If you also had to shoot BP I'd be there. Never did figure out where they got their Classic Smokeless from in the old days.


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You could keep the categories we have and just do under 40 over 40.

Buckaroo

Junior

Cowboy up to 40

Wrangler over 40

Duelist

Senior Duelist

Gun Fighter

Senior Gun Fighter

B Western

Silver Screen

Classic Cowboy

SEnior Classic Cowboy

Frontier Cartridge

Senior Frontier Cartridge

Frontier Cartridge Duelist

Senior Frontier Cartridge Duelist

Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter

Senior Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter

Frontiers man

Senior Frontiers man

 

Same for ladies

 

DC

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This is all actually pretty funny. I don't know where ya'll shoot but here in Florida, it doesn't matter what category you shoot in.....there are folks that will whip your butt in every category. Young, old, male or female.....doesn't matter. The glut of categories that we have now is due to the "feel good about yourself because you won a trinket" attitude that seems to be the prevalent trend these days.

 

Have you ever seen the bumper stickers that proclaim "My child was the student of the month at (blah blah) school? Big deal, anyone who was at the school that day got the same bumper sticker. IMO, that's the way that the categories stack up today.

 

If someone wants to move to another category, so what. Just because one may think that their move is nefarious doesn't mean it is.

 

CS

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You fellers could always do what I do. Shoot, have a great time, try to beat my own previous scores and not care what anyone else is doing. Not caring about where your score places in the "match" but seeing it as a winning proposition to see friend, spend a day shooting and getting out of the house. I'm a winner at every shoot. Way I look at the world, I win every match I enter.

 

Guitar Slinger

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Squaw- grippers; age- based; mouse-phart; Wrangler-wearing; pump-shootin'; cross-draw holster; straw-hat goobers, should all go in a new category. The one true, time- tested, no frills, full cowboy; for only those who are WILLIN' to shoot real loads; hammered or levered S/G's; '73 rifles against any and all what shows up.

 

CLASSIC COWBOY! :D

 

Oh, what was the question? ;)

sounds good.

 

But CC needs to make smoke to be a true shooting experience and a true-true, time-test...... :D

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What they need to do is group all 2 handed, smokeless shooters, 18-60, in one category. It's ridiculous to try and protect anyone in that age range.

 

Then split that group into 2 groups, little bullets and big bullets. There you have it.

 

Fillmore

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What they need to do is group all 2 handed, smokeless shooters, 18-60, in one category. It's ridiculous to try and protect anyone in that age range.

 

Then split that group into 2 groups, little bullets and big bullets. There you have it.

 

Fillmore

You are on the correct path.

 

A person shooting a 160g out of a 45CS case with a pinch of powder @500fps is about equivalent to a 38caliber with a 90g boolit @675fps and the little 32S&Wlong with a 78g bullet but lighter frame gun is about the same... So, throw them all together I say.

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You could keep the categories we have and just do under 40 over 40.

Buckaroo

Junior

Cowboy up to 40

Wrangler over 40

Duelist

Senior Duelist

Gun Fighter

Senior Gun Fighter

B Western

Silver Screen

Classic Cowboy

SEnior Classic Cowboy

Frontier Cartridge

Senior Frontier Cartridge

Frontier Cartridge Duelist

Senior Frontier Cartridge Duelist

Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter

Senior Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter

Frontiers man

Senior Frontiers man

 

Same for ladies

 

DC

Let us NOT get this started again.....there are enough categories now, shoot faster and straighter, and you don't have to worry about other folks and what category they shoot......

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I've thought for a while now that if we are going to have so many categories, the consequence has to be having only the primary category and the senior variant of it. That's it. And when you consider that automatically means there is a lady and lady senior version of all of them, that's still a trainload of categories.

 

I don't begrudge some kind of age division, but if we have duelist and senior duelist then next we are going to have Wrangler Duelist and SS Duelist and... and... and...

 

Same goes for senior gunfighter...

 

The reason we are seeing these categories pop up at monthly shoots is because to many shooters they make sense.

 

So if everyone is liking the "shooting style with a senior option" lets just apply that everywhere and be done with it. It's easy and everyone can understand it.

 

Cowboy and Senior Hand

Duelist and Senior Duelist

Gunfighter and Senior Gunfighter

CC and Senior CC

FC and Senior FC

FCGF and Senior FCGF (if it becomes official)

CB and Senior CB

Frontiersman and Senior Frontiersman

 

Etc...

 

Just apply it to every major category. It rids us of the excessive age category list and makes more room for a few specific categories many want like FCGF. It actually would put more emphasis on the shooting style and costume categories than we have now.

 

Keep the kids categories as they are. Buckaroo and Junior work perfectly.

 

Like everything else, this is a fun mental exercise but I can't see it passing a vote easily. And I certainly am not worked up over it enough to fight for the change.

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I've shot Cowboy, Duelist, Double Duelist, but mostly GF / FCGF - never age based. With the things I do at the shoot, cat I shoot in, health, etc I don't expect to win and am happy to just be there with friends for a few hours doing something we like. Worrying about who picked what category for what reason at a match IMHO would tell me that I have too much time on my hands. If I were that concerned about winning I guess I would have to spend more time at the range. Time wise this is not an option with work, nor is it financially feasible at present.

 

Brought it up to our members and they were opposed to changing it from what it is with the Young Guns & Wranglers being the most vocal about not changing it.

 

Charlie

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Squaw- grippers; age- based; mouse-phart; Wrangler-wearing; pump-shootin'; cross-draw holster; straw-hat goobers, should all go in a new category. The one true, time- tested, no frills, full cowboy; for only those who are WILLIN' to shoot real loads; hammered or levered S/G's; '73 rifles against any and all what shows up.

 

CLASSIC COWBOY! :D

 

Oh, what was the question? ;)

No more coffee for you-- :lol:

LG

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This is all actually pretty funny. I don't know where ya'll shoot but here in Florida, it doesn't matter what category you shoot in.....there are folks that will whip your butt in every category. Young, old, male or female.....doesn't matter. The glut of categories that we have now is due to the "feel good about yourself because you won a trinket" attitude that seems to be the prevalent trend these days.

 

Have you ever seen the bumper stickers that proclaim "My child was the student of the month at (blah blah) school? Big deal, anyone who was at the school that day got the same bumper sticker. IMO, that's the way that the categories stack up today.

 

If someone wants to move to another category, so what. Just because one may think that their move is nefarious doesn't mean it is.

 

CS

 

Why, it can be dad-gum DEPRESSING at times!!!

 

:lol:

 

Ya just gotta laugh.

 

 

Waimea

 

:FlagAm:

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Squaw- grippers; age- based; mouse-phart; Wrangler-wearing; pump-shootin'; cross-draw holster; straw-hat goobers, should all go in a new category. The one true, time- tested, no frills, full cowboy; for only those who are WILLIN' to shoot real loads; hammered or levered S/G's; '73 rifles against any and all what shows up.

 

CLASSIC COWBOY! :D

 

Oh, what was the question? ;)

You left out the ivory stocks requirement.

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I know, lets' do:

 

Traditional

Modern

Duelist

Gunfighter

Elder Statemen

Black Powder

Cap & Ball

Ladies categories

Yah, in five year age brackets like huntsman senior games (must show current photo ID at sign up)

Wow, it's the voices in my head

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Been away from Cowboy Action for a good while, guess I fit in the Cowboy or 49er groups. There were so many different groups when I started looking at CAS online I was having a hard time figuring out where to put myself! Looked at the shooters handbook and still was scratching my head, finally googled SASS categories and briggsdalecountyshootists.com layed it out well enough I could finally make sense of it. Way I look at it, it doesn't make much difference to me, the whole point is to get out and spend time shooting with some good folks.

 

I can tell you from personal experience that after a while trophys don't mean much. I use to race sailboats and have a few trophys from back in the day, but my Dad kept at it for many years and when my parents passed, well, my brother and I ended up donating several dozen glass bottom tankards to Goodwill and threw out even more plaques. Useful stuff makes better trophys in the long run especally for anything other than 1st place for a major event.

 

That is my 2 cents for whatever you figure my opinion to be worth.

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cherry picker

In sports, someone who prefers to take only easy shots. Mildly disparaging.

A common example comes from basketball, in which a "cherry picker" is a person who favors short shots, but especially a person who sits in the back court by the basket waiting for an outlet pass on a change of possession, enabling them to score easily before any defenders can reach them.

The origins of this term may come from the notion of "cherry picking" as attempting, or picking, only those things that are easily obtained, or only what suits your taste best, as a cherry might.

That punk can't ball for nothin'. He just sits back and cherry picks all day.

 

Wow, you just gotta love life and times in CAS

We grow the categories list till it's busting at the seams, including minimum age splits

Now some see the need to force shooters into their age split

I never wood thunk it

Oh well

Next poster, yer up LOL

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I took a quick scan of the Handbook & categories.

 

Everyone except Gunfighter could shoot in the 'Cowboy' category, using the hardware and costuming they presently are using and be within the current SASS rules.

 

Not sure, but Buckaroos could too, except they would have to shoot 32caliber or larger.

 

Don't worry, it will never happen.. But food for thought. :D

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The biggest falacy in what you say is the lack of a meaningful power factor. Ramp it up to WB numbers and lets go around again. ;)

I couldn't agree more. There are some low-down varmints in CC that shoot them short-azz 45's... a couple that I only beat if they lose.... each to his own. Change the rules?

 

 

Squaw- grippers; age- based; mouse-phart; Wrangler-wearing; pump-shootin'; cross-draw holster; straw-hat goobers, should all go in a new category. The one true, time- tested, no frills, full cowboy; for only those who are WILLIN' to shoot real loads; hammered or levered S/G's; '73 rifles against any and all what shows up.

CLASSIC COWBOY! :D

Oh, what was the question? ;)

If you also had to shoot BP I'd be there. Never did figure out where they got their Classic Smokeless from in the old days.

 

MN's own VEGA BOND shot CC black at the Gunsmoke Mid-West Regionals... he's a heck of a competitor, and as fun a cowboy that you'd ever share a trail with anytime. Nothin' keepin' you from it... goated!

 

sounds good.

 

But CC needs to make smoke to be a true shooting experience and a true-true, time-test...... :D

 

See above... and whenever you're feeling the spirit there Master Blaster.

You left out the ivory stocks requirement.

Mine are locked up in a safe with the paperwork showing that I kilt that elephant myownself in 1897 on safari with Ernest Hemingway. Anyone that says otherwise is out to get me.

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So more feel good awards can be given out? And to protect the fossils.

 

Don't worry all, nothing will change.

But I think it should change...........just not like you want it to........because now you want to protect the younger folks by not letting the fossils move down.........which makes no sense.

 

Isn't the real issue the fact that our current system is not SKILL based yet the results of our competitions are directly related to skill level and not age. The scenario of the older shooter dropping down to beat the younger shooter is not about age.....age just brings the spotlight on it because the premise of our system is that older shooters need protection which is a fallacy. What is really happening when cherry picking occurs is that a more skilled shooter is selecting a category that is populated by less skilled shooters. Their ages are irrelevant. The Cherry Picker is looking at skill sets and because of their age have the flexibility to move down if they find a ripe category.

 

Take a look at the results from EOT. The largest disparity between 1st and 2nd is Junior Girl.....90 seconds between first and second. The second place finisher would still have placed in the top 5 of any of the Ladies only categories. I shoot with the 2nd place finisher quite often and that young lady is NO slouch but her skill set is just not close to the 1st place finisher who is a spectacular shooter. The Ladies Silver Senior champ would have finished 1st in Ladies Senior, 49r and Wrangler......skill set not age.

 

If you want true parity then a skill based system is the only thing that will get you CLOSER.....people will still game that system as well. I see new shooters show up and the majority of them are in the Senior and above categories. How fair is it that they are immediately thrown into competition with guys their same age but with years of experience? The new guys are expected to feel ok because the guys whipping them by 100 plus seconds are the same age as them?

 

Come up with a skill based system and a way to implement it and I'm all for changing what we have......because what we have is BS......BUT trying to fix an illogical system by adding more rules that are just as illogical......is not the answer.

 

Stan - who thinks it won't change either because no one will want to administer the skill based system.

 

PS......there is a point where age is a factor. I'm not sure where that is

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This is a skill based activity (not a sport). Athletic ability is essentially not required. That being the case age should have nothing to do with it. Demonstrated ability should dictate who your competition is. There should be three classes: greenhorn (novice), cowboy (intermediate), marshall (expert). You shoot in the greenhorn class until you start to place regularly then you move up to the cowboy class. Once you start to place regularly against other cowboys you move up to the marshall class. After a while it will become apparent what class you should be shooting in and sandbagging will be frowned upon.

 

You can still keep all the other categories. So, for example, if you are a brand new shooter that wants to shoot BP you would compete in the greenhorn BP competition against other greenhorn BP shooters. Whatever skill level (class) you are stays with you until you progress to the next level (greenhorn, cowboy, marshall). You can change your category any time you want. If you are a cowboy class (skill level) shooter and decide to give BP a try you would compete against other cowboy class BP shooters. Your class (skill level) stays with you. Your category (BP, gunfighter, BP gunfighter) can change all the time. Shoot what/how you want but compete against similarly classed shooters.

 

I'd also make it gender nuetral. Skill is skill. A greenhorn is a greenhorn.

 

Stan, I agree that at some point age might matter. An aging cowboy level shooter may deteriorate back to being a greenhorn level shooter at some point.

 

Just thinking out loud.......

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But I think it should change...........just not like you want it to........because now you want to protect the younger folks by not letting the fossils move down.........which makes no sense.

 

Isn't the real issue the fact that our current system is not SKILL based yet the results of our competitions are directly related to skill level and not age. The scenario of the older shooter dropping down to beat the younger shooter is not about age.....age just brings the spotlight on it because the premise of our system is that older shooters need protection which is a fallacy. What is really happening when cherry picking occurs is that a more skilled shooter is selecting a category that is populated by less skilled shooters. Their ages are irrelevant. The Cherry Picker is looking at skill sets and because of their age have the flexibility to move down if they find a ripe category.

 

Take a look at the results from EOT. The largest disparity between 1st and 2nd is Junior Girl.....90 seconds between first and second. The second place finisher would still have placed in the top 5 of any of the Ladies only categories. I shoot with the 2nd place finisher quite often and that young lady is NO slouch but her skill set is just not close to the 1st place finisher who is a spectacular shooter. The Ladies Silver Senior champ would have finished 1st in Ladies Senior, 49r and Wrangler......skill set not age.

 

If you want true parity then a skill based system is the only thing that will get you CLOSER.....people will still game that system as well. I see new shooters show up and the majority of them are in the Senior and above categories. How fair is it that they are immediately thrown into competition with guys their same age but with years of experience? The new guys are expected to feel ok because the guys whipping them by 100 plus seconds are the same age as them?

 

Come up with a skill based system and a way to implement it and I'm all for changing what we have......because what we have is BS......BUT trying to fix an illogical system by adding more rules that are just as illogical......is not the answer.

 

Stan - who thinks it won't change either because no one will want to administer the skill based system.

 

PS......there is a point where age is a factor. I'm not sure where that is

Stan,

 

Good post & good points. It is about a higher skill level person looking for easier prey to pounce on. The easier picking are in the younger categories. The Cherry Picker is looking for a higher placement (an award place) all the way to 1st place, knowing they would place lower if they stayed. At bigger matches, there may very well be a few good shooter(s) in that younger category that may detour the fossils from invading, or at least, not as many. Amazing how some fossils communicate with others to be more assured they don't step on each others toes.

 

I suspect not too many people Cherry Pick in the 49'r /Senior category because they are heavily populated with skilled shooters.

 

Change it to a Skill level? Will never happen and as you said, impossible to set up and regulate.

 

As far as an experience fossil beating up on an inexperienced fossil? I didn't have a problem being beating by more skilled level folks in my category. I took it as they were just better, and they were. I didn't feel the need to go kick/bully a kid (way younger and less skill) in the knee to take his marbles .

 

When I see a Cherry Pickier or someone with superior skill intentionally cherry pick a vulnerable shooter in a much less populated category, I see the lack of integrity/sportmanship/fair_play//// and that dreaded fictional 'Cowboy Way'. I use the Cowboy way as just a figure of speech, and I understand it now means a million things to a million people and no longer has a common definition by many. And that is why we now need all these clarifications on each and every word of every rule.

 

I see the continual erosion of the 'Cowboy Way' by the Gamers/lawyers/english_majors. Changing times and something I usually don't bring up in conversation when trying to recruit new shooters.

 

You mentioned it makes no sense to protect the younger. I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander.... Don't protect the fossils if you will not protect the young.

 

Stan, we are on the same page about this subject. I realize what I suggest will never occur and have accepted that fact. And you are very correct, some one will 'game' whatever rule is in place, and I find that sad.

 

Good day, and I gotta get out and take my walk in the fresh air, burn some powder and play in my sand box (work).

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What will a forced age split fix

 

A shooter is 48 years old one year, and turns 49 next year (example 49er category)

You move that shooter from being the oldest in their last age group to being the youngest in their new age group

Skill, experience, eye to hand coordination, eyesight, memory skills, physicical conditioning

does not change on that specific birthday

 

How does one prove a cherry picker in the first place

A. One who changes categories every match

B. one who only changes to empty categories

C. One who changes categories for ten different End of Trails

D. One who appears to place higher when they change categories

E. all of the above

F. None of the above

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Age matters when the younger person with equivalent skill level can out sprint the other (usually older) in a 5yd sprint by 1-2 seconds.

 

Ain't that the truth.

 

Stan makes some good points, but without a cumbersome system to rate and rank skill level that would be time consuming to administer, you'll never get there.

 

Results come from a number of factors, age while it can play a small part as Blastmaster pointed out, there are many others. Experience in the game, desire, dedication, God given abilities both physical and mental, and other things play a role.

 

One size will never fit all well no matter how you slice it. There are all kinds in this game, those who won't be satisfied except for 1st place against the best, and those who are happy with a token award for 5th place in a category of 5, and a whole bunch someplace in the middle.

 

There will always be those who stretch the limits of any system to attain their desired goals. Some ways they do it is more distasteful to the majority than others. It would be a shame to have to enforce universal constraints such as having to lock in your category for a year or whatever to minimize cherry picking. I think it is best handled on the match level, no category changes after signing up without verifiable medical reasons.

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