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Hoss

HYPOTHETICAL "WHATS THE CALL"

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We have a gallows stage, with about 6 steps up. Usually the shooter hands his guns up to sombody on the platform, then climbs the stairs, then after shooting, sombody hands them down. Sometimes the timer operator does theis chore, other times, a posse member helps out.

 

If a gun were to be dropped while not in the shooters hand, who would get the penalty? what about as they are being handed off?

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If you handle someone elses gun & drop it, it's on you. Don't know what would be done if it happebed during an exchange.

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Same person that gets the penalty for sweeping someone with the muzzle of a loaded (handing up) or empty (handing down) firearm.

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At least one shoot in the distant past quit using stairs after an incedent and a non shooter got a penalty. No one wanted to handle someone else's loaded rife. after that.

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Can you have the shooter place the loaded rifle at the top of the stairs.....off the clock before the "beep".....and have the stage instructions say to leave the gun where it was originally staged? At least then it's on the shooter if anything happens.

 

 

EC

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Can you have the shooter place the loaded rifle at the top of the stairs.....off the clock before the "beep".....and have the stage instructions say to leave the gun where it was originally staged? At least then it's on the shooter if anything happens.

 

 

EC

YEP !!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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I don't like the handing them up and down.

 

Just as much or MORE can go wrong as if I carried them up myself.

Then if something happens. It's on me.

 

If ya don't want people to carry there own guns up there.

Then don't build the stupid thing where they have to.

 

Just my opinion.

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I don't like the handing them up and down.

 

Just as much or MORE can go wrong as if I carried them up myself.

Then if something happens. It's on me.

 

If ya don't want people to carry there own guns up there.

Then don't build the stupid thing where they have to.

 

Just my opinion.

Ta Daaaa!! ;) If yer gonna build a stage like that build a ramp, then even folks like me that don't do well with stairs can play too :)

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Just a question, if the shooting platform is 4 to 6 feet off the ground........where are the spotters while the shooter is shooting?

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I don't like the handing them up and down.

 

Just as much or MORE can go wrong as if I carried them up myself.

Then if something happens. It's on me.

 

If ya don't want people to carry there own guns up there.

Then don't build the stupid thing where they have to.

 

Just my opinion.

I'm starting to agree with you. I don't like carrying on the stairs, dont like handing them off, dont like having them handed off to me, so it does create some un-thought of problems. I guess this is something any club that is contemplating building a raised stage should consider. Of course, many stages have 1 or even 2 steps.

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Just a question, if the shooting platform is 4 to 6 feet off the ground........where are the spotters while the shooter is shooting?

on either side of the platform. no problem spotting from there. Platform is about 3' off the ground. TO is of course, on the platform with the shooter.

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Seems like the issue is the steps. I've got a sawzall that would cut the issue down to size. Seriously, you've got a safety issue literally built into the stage. Rebuild the prop into something that is functional or move it to the side to use as a photo prop.

 

Just two cents worth (give or take),

Barry Sloe

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We have a gallows stage, with about 6 steps up. Usually the shooter hands his guns up to sombody on the platform, then climbs the stairs, then after shooting, sombody hands them down. Sometimes the timer operator does theis chore, other times, a posse member helps out.

 

If a gun were to be dropped while not in the shooters hand, who would get the penalty? what about as they are being handed off?

 

 

Hoss,

 

The stage prop sounds cool, but is really a safety violation waitng to happen. It sounds like there is a very fine window of space there to safely hand off the weapon both ways, not to mention that the weapon could be dropped. I say a violation because, while the weapon is loaded on the initial handoff, theoretically, there is no round in the chamber.

 

You say that, "Usually the shooter hands his guns up to sombody on the platform." That tells me that handing the gun off back and forth once or twice is discretionary on the part of the shooter.

 

As I see it, the helper on the gallows is just that and my opinion is that if the shooter chooses to use his discretion and let the stage hand on the gallows help him, then the shooter is responsible for any safety issues created by the helper. Sounds harsh, but I think it needs to be that way.

 

If a shooter cannot navigate the stairs on the stage prop for any reason and chooses to NOT hand off their weapon and/or climb the stairs, then (s)he should be offered a different position to shoot from. What this tells us, of course, is that perhaps the prop, which looks great on paper and sounds cool, may not be the best from a practical perspective. Maybe the prop could be reconfigured to exist on the ground without stairs, I don't know.

 

Shooter takes the hit.

 

Cat Brules

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At our Gallows stage shooters, except very old or injured, walk up the steps with long guns in hand watching muzzle direction. Maybe we're just lucky but we've had no problem yet.

 

Randy

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Put the loading table on the platform at the top of the stairs. No call.

 

Fillmore

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Hoss,

 

The stage prop sounds cool, but is really a safety violation waitng to happen. It sounds like there is a very fine window of space there to safely hand off the weapon both ways, not to mention that the weapon could be dropped. I say a violation because, while the weapon is loaded on the initial handoff, theoretically, there is no round in the chamber.

 

You say that, "Usually the shooter hands his guns up to sombody on the platform." That tells me that handing the gun off back and forth once or twice is discretionary on the part of the shooter.

 

As I see it, the helper on the gallows is just that and my opinion is that if the shooter chooses to use his discretion and let the stage hand on the gallows help him, then the shooter is responsible for any safety issues created by the helper. Sounds harsh, but I think it needs to be that way.

 

If a shooter cannot navigate the stairs on the stage prop for any reason and chooses to NOT hand off their weapon and/or climb the stairs, then (s)he should be offered a different position to shoot from. What this tells us, of course, is that perhaps the prop, which looks great on paper and sounds cool, may not be the best from a practical perspective. Maybe the prop could be reconfigured to exist on the ground without stairs, I don't know.

 

Shooter takes the hit.

 

Cat Brules

With your SASS number being what it is...it seems that you would be more aware that this kind of stage (Steps) is quite common and handled without problems.

 

And why use the term "Weapon"? They are guns...firearms...but we use them to shoot non-living targets. We are not using them as weapons.

 

Oh, and no call...IMHO.

 

Phantom

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With your SASS number being what it is...it seems that you would be more aware that this kind of stage (Steps) is quite common and handled without problems.

 

And why use the term "Weapon"? They are guns...firearms...but we use them to shoot non-living targets. We are not using them as weapons.

 

Oh, and no call...IMHO.

 

Phantom

 

I don't care for your tone, please be civil.

 

While I did not originally comment on the steps for the prop in this topic, I will now. Six steps up do seem more than normal in my view. You are entitled to your view.

 

As for my terminology, you understood what I said, so that's good enough. You may continue to use your own terminolgy, if you wish. In other words, "I say 'tomato,' you say 'tomahto.'"

 

As for not using the weapons "as weapons," that, too, is a matter of opinion.

 

Not only that, but your "no call" opinion is, once again, just that ... your opinion.

 

As for my badge number, that is not your business and your rude comments regarding it are uncalled for..

 

As for the call, I didn't say this specifically but I will now: In my view, the shooter is always responsible for his weapons. It's a matter of taking/assuming responsibility, accountability and thinking/avoiding worst case the whole time he is handling loaded weapons. You know, all the stuff people are not willing to accept these days.

 

Also, I call your attention to the top of the page, where it says, "hypothetical." Even if it were not, why become so worked up over all this?

 

Cat Brules

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Hey Hoss, great question.

 

Some folks need help, so posse members step up and do it safely. It is not anything that cannot be done safely. When the TO calls for the next shooter, they need to be lookin at that shooter and anticipatin any possible situation. That includes helpin that shooter to the stage and from the stage, in any way, safely.

 

Personally, like Anvil Al, I do not require help at this stage of my life. I will carry them myself.

This type of stage is pretty much at most every club I have ever shot at. Some Posse marshals handle it differently. Piece of cake.

 

Just make sure every one is on the same page.

 

Cheers,

OkDee

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WOW!!!

 

If the steps are constructed anywhere near standard building codes, it should be safe to travel. What this threat is saying, is that the age, physical condition mental awareness of the general SASS shooters is impaired enough to make six steps unsafe while carrying something. I believe there are rules in SASS that says people with limitations can be accommodated so they can enjoy the shoot/stage. I would take that as someone could carry the guns up the stairs w/o fear of penalty to help the handicap shooter. If the shooter does not want assistance and can not negociate the prop (stairs), then they have volunteered to sit it out.

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I don't care for your tone, please be civil.

 

While I did not originally comment on the steps for the prop in this topic, I will now. Six steps up do seem more than normal in my view. You are entitled to your view.

 

As for my terminology, you understood what I said, so that's good enough. You may continue to use your own terminolgy, if you wish. In other words, "I say 'tomato,' you say 'tomahto.'"

 

As for not using the weapons "as weapons," that, too, is a matter of opinion.

 

Not only that, but your "no call" opinion is, once again, just that ... your opinion.

 

As for my badge number, that is not your business and your rude comments regarding it are uncalled for..

 

As for the call, I didn't say this specifically but I will now: In my view, the shooter is always responsible for his weapons. It's a matter of taking/assuming responsibility, accountability and thinking/avoiding worst case the whole time he is handling loaded weapons. You know, all the stuff people are not willing to accept these days.

 

Also, I call your attention to the top of the page, where it says, "hypothetical." Even if it were not, why become so worked up over all this?

 

Cat Brules

 

 

Cat,

 

Yes, tomato-tomahto and all that, but like it or not we live in a highly charged political society where "weapons" are used to kill young school kids, shoot up movie theaters and military bases, and are used to inflict harm on notable individuals such as Senators. We, the shooting community, would rather not be painted with the same brush, so we don't use weapons in our sport, we use firearms.

 

Hey, not trying to knock you here but I am afraid that is the world we live in for the moment and words do have meaning - right Comrade?

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Cat,

 

Yes, tomato-tomahto and all that, but like it or not we live in a highly charged political society where "weapons" are used to kill young school kids, shoot up movie theaters and military bases, and are used to inflict harm on notable individuals such as Senators. We, the shooting community, would rather not be painted with the same brush, so we don't use weapons in our sport, we use firearms.

 

Hey, not trying to knock you here but I am afraid that is the world we live in for the moment and words do have meaning - right Comrade?

 

 

+1.

 

Useing the word weapon for what we do. Only helps feed the anti's.

 

Please stop it.

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I don't care for your tone, please be civil.

 

While I did not originally comment on the steps for the prop in this topic, I will now. Six steps up do seem more than normal in my view. You are entitled to your view.

 

As for my terminology, you understood what I said, so that's good enough. You may continue to use your own terminolgy, if you wish. In other words, "I say 'tomato,' you say 'tomahto.'"

 

As for not using the weapons "as weapons," that, too, is a matter of opinion.

 

Not only that, but your "no call" opinion is, once again, just that ... your opinion.

 

As for my badge number, that is not your business and your rude comments regarding it are uncalled for..

 

As for the call, I didn't say this specifically but I will now: In my view, the shooter is always responsible for his weapons. It's a matter of taking/assuming responsibility, accountability and thinking/avoiding worst case the whole time he is handling loaded weapons. You know, all the stuff people are not willing to accept these days.

 

Also, I call your attention to the top of the page, where it says, "hypothetical." Even if it were not, why become so worked up over all this?

 

Cat Brules

I have come to the conclusion...errrr...opinion...that you don't really exist in the active CAS community.

 

Now you can attach whatever "Tone" to my comments you'd like...but your sensitivity to my previous comments and your lack of understanding of the game in practical terms seem to support my conclusion...errr...opinion.

 

Uh...and using the word "Hypothetical" does not allow folks to take off their intellegence hat and say silly and stoopied stuff...well...most of the time it doesn't. Guess ya gotta just flow with the tone of the OP.

 

So, where is your favorite spot to shoot in good 'ol Cali-fornia? That's my old digs...

 

Phantom

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You seem to want to make this personal for some reason. My guess is that there's more at work here than meets the eye. Sounds cowardly to me.

 

I'm not going to engage in a spitting contest with you in this public forum and I won't use the Forums' personal messaging feature for that purpose, either.

 

Only a fool would fail to grasp the real issue here. You have taken a simple conversation and turned it upside down with juvenile, vile insults because I (and maybe others) do not agree with you. By the way, looks like you' need to study up before you engage in your next spelling contest ... it's "stupid," not "stoopied." Grow up. You think misspelling an insult makes it acceptable?

 

I will say that this banter will end here. Carry on if you wish, but I'm not going to waste any more time engaging with you at all in any venue, because doing so would be like mud wrestling with a pig. But then again, I'm going home to West Texas and then visiting the Capital in a couple of months, so who knows?

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Assistance as needed to negoitiate props, etc., should be offered those in need. As said, we're in the entertainment business... if such a stage scenario isn't entertaining to the majority of YOUR customers, it should be deleted, or used sparingly. Just as climbing on/off horses, into/out of buggies and wagons, getting down onto the ground for prone firing positions have all pretty much been left back behind us on this trail called life, so to I expect will gallows or fort walls. While the 24 year old kid in me loves these things... the 63 year old body revolts. @ 35 when I started, I didn't mind those things on the clock... now I find myself really enjoying the fact that we don't have to even off the clock!

 

Gun, firearm, weapon... all the same to the anti's... crabbin' about nomenclature amongst ourselves just further divides. We all know what they are, quit quibblin' about semantics.

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WOW!!!

 

If the steps are constructed anywhere near standard building codes, it should be safe to travel. What this threat is saying, is that the age, physical condition mental awareness of the general SASS shooters is impaired enough to make six steps unsafe while carrying something. I believe there are rules in SASS that says people with limitations can be accommodated so they can enjoy the shoot/stage. I would take that as someone could carry the guns up the stairs w/o fear of penalty to help the handicap shooter. If the shooter does not want assistance and can not negociate the prop (stairs), then they have volunteered to sit it out.

Howdy Blastmaster, I agree with you for the most part. However if the shooter cannot handle the stairs an altrenate shooting position on the ground should be made avaliable. Most of the time for gallows tables can in set up either in front of or at each corner of the prop so those folks can shoot the stage as close to the scenerio above as possible. Just like with a saddle, if I can't stradle the saddle I'll stand beside it. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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You seem to want to make this personal for some reason. My guess is that there's more at work here than meets the eye. Sounds cowardly to me.

 

I'm not going to engage in a spitting contest with you in this public forum and I won't use the Forums' personal messaging feature for that purpose, either.

 

Only a fool would fail to grasp the real issue here. You have taken a simple conversation and turned it upside down with juvenile, vile insults because I (and maybe others) do not agree with you. By the way, looks like you' need to study up before you engage in your next spelling contest ... it's "stupid," not "stoopied." Grow up. You think misspelling an insult makes it acceptable?

 

I will say that this banter will end here. Carry on if you wish, but I'm not going to waste any more time engaging with you at all in any venue, because doing so would be like mud wrestling with a pig. But then again, I'm going home to West Texas and then visiting the Capital in a couple of months, so who knows?

Wow...you ARE sensitive...just the way you want to take my conversation I guess.

 

Show me a vile insult...where did I do that???

 

Then I ask where ya shoot...and ya go all crazy on me...wow...

 

And come on over to Texas. I'll be here...buy ya a beer or two.

 

Phantom

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" But then again, I'm going home to West Texas and then visiting the Capital in a couple of months, so who knows?"

 

 

Well. Come in the first weekend of May. Shoot Texas State. Phantom is doing the stages. :huh::ph34r:

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" But then again, I'm going home to West Texas and then visiting the Capital in a couple of months, so who knows?"

 

 

Well. Come in the first weekend of May. Shoot Texas State. Phantom is doing the stages. :huh::ph34r:

If he's still a "Shooter"...he'd be more then welcome. But something tells me he don't...and won't.

 

;)

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If you can build a gallows you should be able to add a dumb waiter to get the guns up to it!

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We have a 2 story hotel at our range.For years we trudged up and down the stairs carrying our own guns.Never had a mishap doing it.For the few folks that couldn't do stairs,we made alternate shooting positions for them on the ground level.Now as most of us are getting older,we seldom use the 2nd floor.

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.And why use the term "Weapon"? They are guns...firearms...but we use them to shoot non-living targets. We are not using them as weapons.

 

Phantom

 

 

As for my terminology, you understood what I said, so that's good enough. You may continue to use your own terminolgy, if you wish. In other words, "I say 'tomato,' you say 'tomahto.'"

 

As for not using the weapons "as weapons," that, too, is a matter of opinion.

 

As for the call, I didn't say this specifically but I will now: In my view, the shooter is always responsible for his weapons. It's a matter of taking/assuming responsibility, accountability and thinking/avoiding worst case the whole time he is handling loaded weapons. You know, all the stuff people are not willing to accept these days.

 

Cat Brules

 

 

+1.

 

Useing the word weapon for what we do. Only helps feed the anti's.

 

Please stop it.

 

 

Gun, firearm, weapon... all the same to the anti's..crabbin' about nomenclature amongst ourselves just further divides. We all know what they are, quit quibblin' about semantics.

 

 

In the interest of promoting harmony on the SASS Wire i am promoting replacing the terms Gun, Pistol, Revolver, Firearm and Weapon with the term Ding A Ling. I ask all of you to support my Ding A Ling campaign.

 

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Howdy Blastmaster, I agree with you for the most part. However if the shooter cannot handle the stairs an altrenate shooting position on the ground should be made avaliable. Most of the time for gallows tables can in set up either in front of or at each corner of the prop so those folks can shoot the stage as close to the scenerio above as possible. Just like with a saddle, if I can't stradle the saddle I'll stand beside it. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

 

I like your correction/modification/addition. Good Job.

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In the interest of promoting harmony on the SASS Wire i am promoting replacing the terms Gun, Pistol, Revolver, Firearm and Weapon with the term Ding A Ling. I ask all of you to support my Ding A Ling campaign.

 

I know yer trying to be funny...of course everyone knows that you're not a funny guy. But making light of the mis-use of the word "Weapon" to discribe an item just becuase it can be USED as a weapon...as you can a knife, baseball bat, crowbar, etc...just shows that your attitude is one that would doom us for the sake of their own ego.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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We have one at our club and it has two tables built into the handrail which is were the rifle and shotgun are staged. We do not go up the stairs on the timer and if someone needs help another cowboy carries the guns up the stairs for them. I don't see any need to hand off guns, just let someone else carry them for you. This is a popular stage for us since we have clay throwers built into the gallows and they are activated by shotgun knockdown targets. We have one cowgirl and one cowboy who use a cane and we carry there gun up for them. I don't see that this is a problem,besides we are out there for fun and I have never seen a Cadillac in the parking lot as a prize for the winner. So have fun with it and do not make it harder than it has to be.

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