Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Some folks are starting to show-up at shoots and stage their rifles with the lever open as much as an inch ,,,,,, Is this legal according to the rules ... Some don't see this as an issue .... But to me closed means the lever is just that ,,,Fully closed... What say you .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 You asked about having the hammer down. Wattzat got to do wid da lever?? I'm sooooooooo confused!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerkline Jesse, SASS #64073 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 If they want to bend their levers on pickup, or complicate their pick ups unnecessarily, why stop them? But, that said, the rule is the rule. Enforce it, but it's not like they're gonna gain anything. The sky isn't falling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 You're saying that there's enough slack in the lever that the ACTION is closed / hammer fully down with the lever open an INCH?? Depends on the model of rifle...but, as noted in the following post (and at least one of the other two), the rule only refers to the ACTION...NOT the lever itself. 15. Rifles may be "staged" with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (not on the "safety" notch), as long as the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction—adheres to the 170° safety rule, and the muzzle is never on the ground. RO1 p.18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 The lever is not part of the rule. The rule is hammer fully down on an empty chamber, that is to say no half cock. That is mostly in respect to initial staging. Restaging requires the rifle to be staged open and empty again the lever is not part of the rule. Open refers to the bolt is it in battery or not. So if you have a rifle that the spring tension doesn't hold the lever tight against the action its not an issue. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Sounds like a great way to induce a train wreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Shayne Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 How are they managing to have the lever open and the hammer fully down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 The lever is not part of the rule. The rule is hammer fully down on an empty chamber, that is to say no half cock. That is mostly in respect to initial staging. Restaging requires the rifle to be staged open and empty again the lever is not part of the rule. Open refers to the bolt is it in battery or not. So if you have a rifle that the spring tension doesn't hold the lever tight against the action its not an issue. 12 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knot Hardly Dunn, SASS 43113 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Read this and tried it with my Marlin and 73 and can't do it with either one. Maybe just my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 This should be a good'n...... Got my soda and popcorn ready. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Shayne Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Heck...3 threads about it already Yeah, it should be good to watch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Easy. The first inch or so of lever movement only unlocks the bolt. It doesn't move the bolt, and of course doesn't move the hammer, which leaves the hammer fully down on the empty chamber. Not a good idea in my opinion, but I hardly think it's illegal. Might even make it harder to grasp and begin operating the rifle if staged with lever slightly open. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Dang, now I'm gonna have to go check my Marlin and 73 and see how far the levers can be open before the action opens just a tad. I doubt it's much. But that will have to wait til tomorrow, time for the bunkhouse now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Page 22 #15 of verision 18.1 seems to indicate that rifles are staged action closed ,,,,, with nothing under the hammer .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Page 22 #15 of verision 18.1 seems to indicate that rifles are staged action closed ,,,,, with nothing under the hammer .... Jabez Cowboy See post #4 on THIS VERSION of your triple-tap WtC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Then pick JUST ONE to reply to...PLEASE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 When the lever is open more than .498 of an inch on my "Box stock" Marlin 94 there is noticable movement of the bolt .... Just how much does the bolt need to move to no longer be closed ??? Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 You're saying that there's enough slack in the lever that the ACTION is closed / hammer fully down with the lever open an INCH?? Depends on the model of rifle...but, as noted in the following post (and at least one of the other two), the rule only refers to the ACTION...NOT the lever itself. 15. Rifles may be "staged" with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (not on the "safety" notch), as long as the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction—adheres to the 170° safety rule, and the muzzle is never on the ground. RO1 p.18 Really? Action closed would infer the gun is fully in battery. With most leverguns if the lever is not fully up the bolt may appear to be closed on the chamber, but the locking bolt is not fully engaged, and ready to fire (if it were loaded). I don't see any competitive advantage, but if the lever is down then the action aint closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 "...action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (not on the "safety" notch),..." The rule must be applicable to ALL rifle action types (lever and pump). If manipulation of the lever/slide further CLOSES the action (bolt), the ACTION was NOT CLOSED (i.e.it was OPEN). The amount of movement necessary to OPEN the bolt/action will vary depending on model of firearm and the amount of modification done to the action itself. ...and before anyone asks, rebounding hammers are considered "fully down" when at rest in the rebound position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 v You're saying that there's enough slack in the lever that the ACTION is closed / hammer fully down with the lever open an INCH?? Depends on the model of rifle...but, as noted in the following post (and at least one of the other two), the rule only refers to the ACTION...NOT the lever itself. 15. Rifles may be "staged" with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (not on the "safety" notch), as long as the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction—adheres to the 170° safety rule, and the muzzle is never on the ground. RO1 p.18 Really? Action closed would infer the gun is fully in battery. With most leverguns if the lever is not fully up the bolt may appear to be closed on the chamber, but the locking bolt is not fully engaged, and ready to fire (if it were loaded). I don't see any competitive advantage, but if the lever is down then the action aint closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Really? Action closed would infer the gun is fully in battery. With most leverguns if the lever is not fully up the bolt may appear to be closed on the chamber, but the locking bolt is not fully engaged, and ready to fire (if it were loaded). I don't see any competitive advantage, but if the lever is down then the action aint closed. That depends on whether the rifle in question has a locking bolt(s)...doesn't it? I just tested five different rifles: Hartford 1892 - opening the lever ANY amount drops the locking bolts and opens the action slightly - will not fire Winchester AE 1894 - same as above (has functional lever safety) Uberti 1866 (w/short stroke) lever has enough "free" movement (about ½") before the bolt moves...rifle WILL fire in that position (no lever safety) Marlin 1893 - lever can move about that same amount but won't fire ("Marlin Safety" two-piece firing pin) Marlin 1894 CBII Ltd - lever can open ¾" before moving the bolt...won't fire in that position as it has a functional lever safety. (it apparently would if the safety was manually depressed...one-piece firing pin installed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 One or the other please...I'm not going to continue double posting replies on two of the three threads on this same subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 That depends on whether the rifle in question has a locking bolt(s)...doesn't it? I just tested five different rifles: Hartford 1892 - opening the lever ANY amount drops the locking bolts and opens the action slightly - will not fire Winchester AE 1894 - same as above (has functional lever safety) Uberti 1866 (w/short stroke) lever has enough "free" movement (about ½") before the bolt moves...rifle WILL fire in that position (no lever safety) Marlin 1893 - lever can move about that same amount but won't fire ("Marlin Safety" two-piece firing pin) Marlin 1894 CBII Ltd - lever can open ¾" before moving the bolt...won't fire in that position as it has a functional lever safety. (it apparently would if the safety was manually depressed...one-piece firing pin installed) No, at least not from a gunsmiths point of view. If the lever is down on any of the guns you mentioned the action is not closed, it is not in battery it is not locked as in lock box (a European term for a closed breech). If the lever is actually down that much and the breech is actually closed, in battery then I would consider any of those guns to be unsafe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 No, at least not from a gunsmiths point of view. If the lever is down on any of the guns you mentioned the action is not closed, it is not in battery it is not locked as in lock box (a European term for a closed breech). If the lever is actually down that much and the breech is actually closed, in battery then I would consider any of those guns to be unsafe. Isn't that why 1873's have a lever safety? The '66 action appears to be closed (i.e. bolt fully forward); but if the lever is partially open when the trigger is tripped, that would be considered an "out of battery" discharge, wouldn't it? I'll have to open it up & see what position the links are in when it's in that condition. (Only one of my six 1866's has a '73-type lever safety...mid-70's Commemorative model) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Interesting. My initial thinking tells me when the 'action is closed', this would cover the bolt position only. But, because the lever is incorporated into that action and plays a vital role in the position of the action, maybe the lever could be defined as part of it. But until the Rules posse (PaleWolf Riders) states otherwise, I'll limit my definition to the 'bolt' only position for now. Dang Jabez, you got yeself a good topic! ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Maybe I'm missing something WHY would you want to do that!? Getting a head start on levering the gun.........lol. There are much better ways to get good stage times IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 If someone is staging their rifle like this to be "gamey", they're stupid. There is no competitive advantage. Can't we just invoke the "that's a stupid idea rule" and make them close the lever? That way PaleWolf can use his time and abilities where they matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Interesting. My initial thinking tells me when the 'action is closed', this would cover the bolt position only. But, because the lever is incorporated into that action and plays a vital role in the position of the action, maybe the lever could be defined as part of it. But until the Rules posse (PaleWolf Riders) states otherwise, I'll limit my definition to the 'bolt' only position for now. Dang Jabez, you got yeself a good topic! ..........Widder Thanks Widder; I too look at it from a Gunsmiths point of view ,,,,, as I is one .... And I understand the reason for lightening the Lever plunger Spring ,,,, Less effort to cycle .... But when I see the lever hanging down and the bolt unlocked and started to with-draw ,,,,,, IMHO the action ain't closed ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Thanks Widder; I too look at it from a Gunsmiths point of view ,,,,, as I is one .... And I understand the reason for lightening the Lever plunger Spring ,,,, Less effort to cycle .... But when I see the lever hanging down and the bolt unlocked and started to with-draw ,,,,,, IMHO the action ain't closed ... Jabez Cowboy Then call 'em on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Then call 'em on it. EXACTLY... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Howdy Pale Wolf Brunelle ; The reason for the multipule posts ,,,, was after 15 miniutes of waiting the post just disappeared ,,,,,,, I checked the wire it was not there...... After I posted again ,,,,,,,, poof I had three ..... Feel free to close/delete this post if NESSARY ..... I checked my Brand New out of the box Marlin 94 and if the lever is "Popped" open (the lever is no longer retained by the plunger) 6 out of 10 times the bolt has moved " Out of battery" , and in all cases the bolt can be pushed open with a plastic knife with-out touching the lever ..... This in my eyes does NOT consititute "Action Closed".... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 It would be easyer in My opinion ,,,, if the rules simpley stated that the lever must be closed as designed all the actions as built (designed) have a method of keeping them closed .... If not modified .... Train your self to cycle the action just short of a full stroke on the return to battery cycle and a one piece firing pin in a Marlin 94 with lightened springs is asking for an out-of-battery discharge ..... ie; back to hanging down where it started out when you picked it up ....... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 If the hammer is fully down on the bolt with an empty chamber the gun will not fire, (try it) even if the lever hangs down dome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 One or the other please...I'm not going to continue double posting replies on two of the three threads on this same subject. I merged two of them, just for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Thanks Miss Mo ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no "E" Still be wanting to shoot with Ya ...... Even though you Ain't a Grump I will pay your entry to Shoot the "Catus Flats" shoot in Medicine Hat Alberta either this May long or the fall shoot on the Canadian Thanksgiving Week-end ..... Just let me Know !!!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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