Just what constitutes a "rifle staged with hammer down on an empty Chamber"

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Jabez:

(in my opinion)

 

as a TO, ya gotta call it like you see it, atleast for the moment, based on your knowledge of rules and gunsmith knowledge. Some may think there isn't a penalty for such. And they may be correct in one way. But as the TO, ya don't have to start the shooter ifn you think it ain't right.

 

I like Dang It Dan's post. Tell the shooter to have the lever fully up or ya won't start his stage. Then let the MD make a decision based on those circumstances.

 

It may be alittle different, but if I were a TO and the shooter came to the line with Rugers, hammer down, etc.....BUT, the loading gate was open, I wouldn't start the shooter UNTIL it was verified that the cylinder hadn't rotated alittle and causing a live round to be under the hammer.

 

Just my humble way of thinkin.

 

Y'all keep a good thought!

 

 

..........Widder

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

If it ever gets to the point I need a lawyer to shoot this game, I'm outta here. We have a small rule book and I would sure like to keep it that way.

 

CR

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

If it ever gets to the point I need a lawyer to shoot this game, I'm outta here. We have a small rule book and I would sure like to keep it that way.

 

CR

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

At least Two of these Folk with droopy Levers are very fine and nice ,,,,, but ALSO VERY COMPETIVE .....

And I knew that the rule States "Rifle must be staged ACTIONS CLOSED , hammer fully down on an EMPTY CHAMBER"

So I just wanted to define what CONSISTUTIED a CLOSED ACTION ...

 

Seems to me that from a design point of view that the lever must be closed ..... And not self opening ,hanging open or opening when bumped by shooters thigh or by contact of an ejected shotshel (empty falling on the action causing the lever to open .....

 

I have seen all these and more issues in the past two years .... Of traveling around Western Canada to major SASS shoots and other CAS .....

 

Thanks for the replys ,,,,,, Rule Could state lever must be fully closed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but it doesn't ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

At least Two of these Folk with droopy Levers are very fine and nice ,,,,, but ALSO VERY COMPETIVE .....

And I knew that the rule States "Rifle must be staged ACTIONS CLOSED , hammer fully down on an EMPTY CHAMBER"

So I just wanted to define what CONSISTUTIED a CLOSED ACTION ...

 

Seems to me that from a design point of view that the lever must be closed ..... And not self opening ,hanging open or opening when bumped by shooters thigh or by contact of an ejected shotshel (empty falling on the action causing the lever to open .....

 

I have seen all these and more issues in the past two years .... Of traveling around Western Canada to major SASS shoots and other CAS .....

 

Thanks for the replys ,,,,,, Rule Could state lever must be fully closed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but it doesn't ....

 

Because some rifles with (or without) lever safeties can't be "fully closed" without doing so manually...and someone would likely somehow misinterpret THAT one as well...and then something would have to be added to cover pump-action rifles.

We shouldn't have to define "action closed"....we're still working on "action OPEN" (as it applies to restaged long guns).

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

 

At least Two of these Folk with droopy Levers are very fine and nice ,,,,, but ALSO VERY COMPETIVE .....

And I knew that the rule States "Rifle must be staged ACTIONS CLOSED , hammer fully down on an EMPTY CHAMBER"

So I just wanted to define what CONSISTUTIED a CLOSED ACTION ...

 

Seems to me that from a design point of view that the lever must be closed ..... And not self opening ,hanging open or opening when bumped by shooters thigh or by contact of an ejected shotshel (empty falling on the action causing the lever to open .....

 

I have seen all these and more issues in the past two years .... Of traveling around Western Canada to major SASS shoots and other CAS .....

 

Thanks for the replys ,,,,,, Rule Could state lever must be fully closed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but it doesn't ....

 

Because some rifles with (or without) lever safeties can't be "fully closed" without doing so manually...and someone would likely somehow misinterpret THAT one as well...and then something would have to be added to cover pump-action rifles.

We shouldn't have to define "action closed"....we're still working on "action OPEN" (as it applies to restaged long guns).

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Pale Wolf ;

I can certainly understand the problem of those looking for and edge (loop-hole) and the varied types of actions ,,,,,, I just wish folks were satisfied with using guns as designed ..... Slicked up and running as smooth as possible is very nice ,,, and truth be told slickin them up pays for my shooting .... But I will not do work that will lessen the saftey of our firearms ,,, and I have seen some of the kind of work showing up at shoots ....

 

Thanks for doing a very thankless job !!!

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Madd Mike #8595]

This should be a good'n......

Got my soda and popcorn ready.

LG

not me

I am going striaght for the wild turkey and wild womenz

I gave up soda many moons ago

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Ya know if I every get the chance to shoot at a Shoot where You (Mad Mike) are shooting I'm going to break my usual MO and ask to Be possied with someone ,,,,,,,,,,,,, You !!!

 

I would also like to shoot with Widder .....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Jabez,

 

thats a kind thought...thank you.

 

The pleasure would be all mine.

 

I'd let you shoot a REAL Widdermatic.....

 

 

..........WIdder

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Can not remember the last time I have even seen a LTO.

 

 

Can not remember the last time I have even seen a LTO.

+1 including a couple of state championships and WR in the last year.

[Utah Bob #35998]

 

We shouldn't have to define "action closed"

I agree.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Pale Wolf ;

I can certainly understand the problem of those looking for and edge (loop-hole) and the varied types of actions ,,,,,, I just wish folks were satisfied with using guns as designed ..... Slicked up and running as smooth as possible is very nice ,,, and truth be told slickin them up pays for my shooting .... But I will not do work that will lessen the saftey of our firearms ,,, and I have seen some of the kind of work showing up at shoots ....

 

Thanks for doing a very thankless job !!!

 

Jabez Cowboy

Who in the H - E - Double L do you shoot with????

 

No one that I shoot with...or have shot with that cares at all about going fast would want a droopy lever...I mean...we want the lever to be at the same location every time we pick up the rifle.

 

Something don't sound right here.

 

[Shooting Bull]

Ya know if I every get the chance to shoot at a Shoot where You (Mad Mike) are shooting I'm going to break my usual MO and ask to Be possied with someone ,,,,,,,,,,,,, You !!!

 

I would also like to shoot with Widder .....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Be careful what you ask for there JC. Shooting with that feller will drive you MADDDDD

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

I agree.

 

+1. You can argue all day long about how open does an action have to be to be "open" (simple solution is to word the rules "open fully"). BUT, CLOSED IS CLOSED! There are no shades of grey in this. Action closed means the action is closed, fully in battery, bolt forward, locking lugs locked, lever as fully closed as safety plungers allow. Every body knows this, the only reason to argue the point is simply just to argue, or to find a way to save half a second from your time because you need to win the $50,000 prize at your next monthly match. Bill Clinton is the only person I would accept argument from on this point just because he is still waiting for the definition of "is".

 

Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

+1. You can argue all day long about how open does an action have to be to be "open" (simple solution is to word the rules "open fully"). BUT, CLOSED IS CLOSED! There are no shades of grey in this. Action closed means the action is closed, fully in battery, bolt forward, locking lugs locked, lever as fully closed as safety plungers allow. Every body knows this, the only reason to argue the point is simply just to argue, or to find a way to save half a second from your time because you need to win the $50,000 prize at your next monthly match. Bill Clinton is the only person I would accept argument from on this point just because he is still waiting for the definition of "is".

 

Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.

Howdy Crazy Gun Barney;

That closed would mean ,,,,, Closed all the way to the point of being locked into "Battery" and the lever would as a nessary also be closed ..... But that ain't how the rule is written .....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Boon Doggle]

'Coures if we just shot out of the box, no internal modifications, stock guns we could eliminate ALL our problems. Oh, wait... Never mind.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

+1. You can argue all day long about how open does an action have to be to be "open" (simple solution is to word the rules "open fully"). BUT, CLOSED IS CLOSED! There are no shades of grey in this. Action closed means the action is closed, fully in battery, bolt forward, locking lugs locked, lever as fully closed as safety plungers allow. Every body knows this, the only reason to argue the point is simply just to argue, or to find a way to save half a second from your time because you need to win the $50,000 prize at your next monthly match. Bill Clinton is the only person I would accept argument from on this point just because he is still waiting for the definition of "is".

 

Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.

Can you back up your definition of closed in the rules? If not you would be hard pressed to call a penalty on someone. Leaving the lever partially open and the bolt still closed , hammer down would not save any shooter any time. Just try to pick up the rifle that way.

[Henry T Harrison]

This is why rule books are now the size of encyclopedias

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I know this thread has about run its course but I measured 4 of my Marlins and here is the data.

 

On ALL 4 of these samples, the lever could be popped open as my measurements show but yet the bolt nor hammer would move not even an .000

 

I've shown caliber, distance opened from lower frame to the portion of the lever that is closest to frame (right behind the trigger) and the 2nd measurement was from the stock area (approx 3.3" from where the wood touches the frame back to the end of the lever) to the tip area of the lever.

 

.32 H&R Mag (NIB): .484 1.168

 

.32 H&R Mag .400 .880

 

.38 Comp. .430 1.048

 

.45 Comp. .455 1.060

 

Just my opinion, but the bolt was fully closed and the hammer was fully down. But the lever could substantially be in a position away from the rifles pistol grip area as much as an inch.

 

The NEW IN BOX Marlin Cowboy .32 H&R measured the greatest distance.

 

You'll have to draw you own conclusions as to what might constitute 'closed with hammer down'.

 

 

..........Widder

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

I've got a .44 Marlin that has a lever with the tendency to open a bit when handling it. I always close it tight after staging. Don't want it moving when I grab it and pick it up. A slightly floppy lever is a disadvantage, not a gamer advantage.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Well good shooten to ya all ,,,,,, have fun and be safe ....

 

And don't mind me if I step back and hand off the timer, if you come to the line we a droopy lever and an action that won't stay closed.....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Boon Doggle]

I believe this equine has past into the after life.

 

In pace requiescat.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Hey Pards,

 

I just wanted to post some actual figures to verify Jabez's observations for anyone who might wonder how the lever could be open a great distance in these circumstances.

 

As most have stated, I can't figure out how it would be an advantage but rather a disadvantage.

 

Anyhow, I think I'm gona follow other good examples and just hand this timer off also.....

 

its gona be SUNNY and WARM in E.TN today and I figure Slater and I will be back on the farm doing some serious practice for the GA State in about 17 days. YEEHAW.

 

Y'ALL KEEP A GOOD THOUGHT!

 

 

..........Widder

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

If you judge whether a lever rifle is open and empty after shooting it. by looking at the bolt position, not the lever, why would you not also examine the bolt to see if it was closed with hammer down before shooting it?

[Blastmaster]

And they are off!!

 

Next big match you attend, just image x% of the RO's believe a penalty may be deserving for the rifle staged with rifle lever drooping. Then the other xx% didn't see or say a thing.

 

Fix??? Before taking one step away from LT,,, do your pre shoot checkoff.... 1) no droopy lever,,,2) hammer 'fully' down,,,,,3) got SG shells? 4) pistol hammer straps off? 5)what is the starting line? 6) ear plugs in 7) now, what was the stage??? 8) TO a Good Ol Boy? 9) Understanding spotters? 10) Pistol/rifle/SG, or rifle/pistol/SG? .... add whatever check list items that work for you.

 

Carry on!!

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

If someone came to the line where I was the TO with a droopy lever, the first thing I'd do is ask them to place all their guns on the table, including pistols, and remove their boots. If their socks don't match, I'd take that as the second sign that they're goofy.

 

I am constantly entertained by people doing things that they think gives them an edge - that doesn't - and equally entertained by the people they suck into believing it.

 

The really good shooters who routinely do well always have a few things in common. Among them are efficiency of movement and dependable guns that are not apt to fall apart. I'll say it: If someone is building a rifle to intentionally cause the lever to stay open, they're goofy. Look for the signs. The lever is only the first.

 

 

~big grin~

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Ah is Grumpy ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Ya can tell by da grin on my face while shooting ....

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Griff]

I gotta be a LOT simpler than I've previously thought. It strikes me that "action closed", refers to the visible operating parts of the rifle. In the case of the rifle, this would include the bolt, locking lugs (if equipped), and lever. If the bolt were the only part that was required to be closed, would the rule not read, "... bolt closed"? There are a few lever-action rifles where the lever WILL be pushed away from the lower tang slightly, such as models 73 & 94 Winchester and the 1894 Marlin, as the trigger block safety will not be engaged until the spring force is overcome by actually HOLDING the lever tight against the tang. This ain't to say that all examples of those models will be so affected, but... since when is the "action" defined as just the "bolt"? Since the hammer can be moved independently of the lever/bolt group, it seems prudent to mention it separately.

 

Firing line lawyers... yep, the "Slick Willy" reference sure is appropriate.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

If the bolt can be pushed open without touching the lever ,,,, either by pushing on the bolt with a plastic knife (dsposible type) or by push a rod down bore .....

 

DOES THIS CONISITUITE A CLOSED ACTION ????

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Wow----100 posts now.

LG

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

If the bolt can be pushed open without touching the lever ,,,, either by pushing on the bolt with a plastic knife (dsposible type) or by push a rod down bore .....

 

DOES THIS CONISITUITE A CLOSED ACTION ????

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Have you tried this on any of the "offending" shooter's rifle's?

If not, how do you know?

[Yusta B.]

If the bolt can be pushed open without touching the lever ,,,, either by pushing on the bolt with a plastic knife (dsposible type) or by push a rod down bore .....

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Hey, what a great idea. Jam a range rod down a bore -- but wait ...... there was a round in the chamber & the firing pin was sticking out just enough. That ought to make for an interesting moment.

[Hoss]

I think the SPCA folks are gonna get after us for floggin this poor old dead pony.

 

If the TO says close the lever, shooter closes the lever.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Hey, what a great idea. Jam a range rod down a bore -- but wait ...... there was a round in the chamber & the firing pin was sticking out just enough. That ought to make for an interesting moment.

I have tried it on two rifles my Uberti 66 and My Marlin 94 ,,,, and in both cases the bolt is not locked when the lever is about 1/2 an inch away from the action ..... In the case of my Box Stock Marlin it is open a measured .498 when the lever plunger lock is overcome and yes at this point the bolt can be pushed open with a rod down the bore .... And my 66 is also out of battery and can be pushed open .....

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy