SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 in this game i have run into some real geniousess ( no comon sense ) like define open and empty . i would to see shooters show more common sense. some weapons are tuned to the point a fly could move the trigger . And this thinking a rifle or shot gun can't fire out of battery is a mental disoder. i have seen it happen. well this is my 2 cents. go ahead and jump on me i have broad shoulders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Hi, Thank you kindly for the offer Jabez. I finally made it to the US Open on the basis of a kind offer. Someday maybe... Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Hi, Thank you kindly for the offer Jabez. I finally made it to the US Open on the basis of a kind offer. Someday maybe... Regards, Allie Mo I'll take you to SONIC and feed you some good hotdogs ifn you'll travel to E.TN and shoot with me...... I know this seems like a cheap offer but eh, it ain't just anybody that I take to SONIC for a good hotdog. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Just an observation and question, kinda hard to make it go bang with the hammer down on an empty chamber, where ever the lever is------------or not?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Haul a "Tin Wagon" up here or stay in the Main House and make it a few shoots in one trip, Plenty of room here fer you either way .... "Willow Creek Gosphel Music Jamboree" is across the road from My place July 26-28 2013 and my Family are Headliners ... Just to be warned we generaly have a "Most of the Night Jam session" on Saturday after the Concert ,,,, sometimes Friday night as well.... Widder; This offer is open to you as well .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I'll take you to SONIC and feed you some good hotdogs ifn you'll travel to E.TN and shoot with me...... I know this seems like a cheap offer but eh, it ain't just anybody that I take to SONIC for a good hotdog. ..........Widder Dear Widder, The pleasure of finally meeting you (and seeing JJ and AM) is a sufficient enticement to visit E.TN. Someday, I hope to do that. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 in this game i have run into some real geniousess ( no comon sense ) like define open and empty . i would to see shooters show more common sense. some weapons are tuned to the point a fly could move the trigger . And this thinking a rifle or shot gun can't fire out of battery is a mental disoder. i have seen it happen. well this is my 2 cents. go ahead and jump on me i have broad shoulders They ain't weapons...we don't shoot our firearms at anything other then targets...guess the targets would consider them weapons... The rest of your post makes no sense to me...but hey, I'm a gineeous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Then call 'em on it. Big +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Actually in my opinion this thread is rather dumb or lacks common sense. Rifles and shotguns will fire out of battery but none that I know of will launch a projectile without the projectile and propellant being present I would think a "gunsmith" would know that. So when the hammer is fully down on an empty chamber the situation is clearly not a problem to the safety of the shooter nor to the safety of others. So whats the problem? 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Actually in my opinion this thread is rather dumb or lacks common sense. Rifles and shotguns will fire out of battery but none that I know of will launch a projectile without the projectile and propellant being present I would think a "gunsmith" would know that. So when the hammer is fully down on an empty chamber the situation is clearly not a problem to the safety of the shooter nor to the safety of others. So whats the problem? 12 The rifle action/hammer condition is relevant to the rules regarding moving from the LT and staging prior to the start of the stage. The penalties range from a "P" to a SDQ...so, IMO, there MIGHT be a problem with someone moving/staging a firearm in a compromised condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Actually in my opinion this thread is rather dumb or lacks common sense. Rifles and shotguns will fire out of battery but none that I know of will launch a projectile without the projectile and propellant being present I would think a "gunsmith" would know that. So when the hammer is fully down on an empty chamber the situation is clearly not a problem to the safety of the shooter nor to the safety of others. So whats the problem? 12 Well, I will take a shot at this problem. The fact that you think the rifle or pistol does not have a live round under that hammer. That is a problem. Because you really do not know. That is one reason to make sure any rifle staged - or any Wild Bunch shooter shotgun - or revolvers in the holsters of the shooter, do have the hammer(s) completely down. It is one small important facet, that might - just might - save someone or something from destruction. The chance that there is a live round under that hammer/firing pin, (be it half cocked, safety cocked, even fully down) can alter your state of being. Have you ever seen a shooter cock that first pistol and it go click? Have you ever seen a shooter lever that first round in, only to have one thrown out? What does that mean? Dead primer? Forgot to load the dang pistol? Maybe - the cylinder was not turned competely to an empty chamber. Have you ever seen a shooter reach for his holstered pistol and have it go off, while it was in his holster? Too much conversation going on at the loading table??? Distractions galore,,New shooter,,Hey, til you have had that happen, and I have seen it and it is scary, I firmly believe that this is a safeguard, clear and simple. OkDee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Well, I will take a shot at this problem. The fact that you think the rifle or pistol does not have a live round under that hammer. That is a problem. Because you really do not know. That is one reason to make sure any rifle staged - or any Wild Bunch shooter shotgun - or revolvers in the holsters of the shooter, do have the hammer(s) completely down. It is one small important facet, that might - just might - save someone or something from destruction. The chance that there is a live round under that hammer/firing pin, (be it half cocked, safety cocked, even fully down) can alter your state of being. Have you ever seen a shooter cock that first pistol and it go click? Have you ever seen a shooter lever that first round in, only to have one thrown out? What does that mean? Dead primer? Forgot to load the dang pistol? Maybe - the cylinder was not turned competely to an empty chamber. Have you ever seen a shooter reach for his holstered pistol and have it go off, while it was in his holster? Too much conversation going on at the loading table??? Distractions galore,,New shooter,,Hey, til you have had that happen, and I have seen it and it is scary, I firmly believe that this is a safeguard, clear and simple. OkDee Another big +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Well, I will take a shot at this problem. The fact that you think the rifle or pistol does not have a live round under that hammer. That is a problem. Because you really do not know. That is one reason to make sure any rifle staged - or any Wild Bunch shooter shotgun - or revolvers in the holsters of the shooter, do have the hammer(s) completely down. It is one small important facet, that might - just might - save someone or something from destruction. The chance that there is a live round under that hammer/firing pin, (be it half cocked, safety cocked, even fully down) can alter your state of being. Have you ever seen a shooter cock that first pistol and it go click? Have you ever seen a shooter lever that first round in, only to have one thrown out? What does that mean? Dead primer? Forgot to load the dang pistol? Maybe - the cylinder was not turned competely to an empty chamber. Have you ever seen a shooter reach for his holstered pistol and have it go off, while it was in his holster? Too much conversation going on at the loading table??? Distractions galore,,New shooter,,Hey, til you have had that happen, and I have seen it and it is scary, I firmly believe that this is a safeguard, clear and simple. OkDee I know we are talking about rules for cowboy here, but this post does mention staging shotguns for WB. Just to clear things a bit, the rules are different in WB as you can have the rifle and shotgun staged with the "hammer either on the safety notch or fully down" from the WB handbook: • Rifles are always staged muzzle down range with the action closed, the chamber empty, and hammer either on the safety notch or fully down. If vertically staged, the muzzle must be tilted down range. • Loaded shotguns must be staged with the muzzle downrange, the action closed, the chamber empty, and the hammer either on the safety notch or fully down. (Failure to comply, SDQ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 The rifle action/hammer condition is relevant to the rules regarding moving from the LT and staging prior to the start of the stage. The penalties range from a "P" to a SDQ...so, IMO, there MIGHT be a problem with someone moving/staging a firearm in a compromised condition. PWB, Thank you. This notion that it aint loaded so it can't shoot is how folk get shot with unloaded guns. If a LTO or the TO see's a hammer not fully down that can indicate the shooter had a brain fade and accidently chambered a round. I would think that is why we have this rule. A lever sagging would suggest the same. BTW, To support the links, a toggle link gun like the 66 or 73 has to have the lever fully up to support the links. Sentcha a PM on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 The rifle action/hammer condition is relevant to the rules regarding moving from the LT and staging prior to the start of the stage. The penalties range from a "P" to a SDQ...so, IMO, there MIGHT be a problem with someone moving/staging a firearm in a compromised condition. The position of the hammer is relevant however the position of the lever is not if it is not affecting the posistion of either the hammer or the bolt. When you speak of condition that is a different subject and for the most part is not a part of the hands off initial staging question being wipped to death here. As far a moving and restaging the lever is not a restricted device granted it can be used as an indicator of the probable posistion of the bolt and carrier. However is not restricted except by the lenght it traverses during the levering process. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Well, I will take a shot at this problem. The fact that you think the rifle or pistol does not have a live round under that hammer. That is a problem. Because you really do not know. That is one reason to make sure any rifle staged - or any Wild Bunch shooter shotgun - or revolvers in the holsters of the shooter, do have the hammer(s) completely down. It is one small important facet, that might - just might - save someone or something from destruction. The chance that there is a live round under that hammer/firing pin, (be it half cocked, safety cocked, even fully down) can alter your state of being. Have you ever seen a shooter cock that first pistol and it go click? Have you ever seen a shooter lever that first round in, only to have one thrown out? What does that mean? Dead primer? Forgot to load the dang pistol? Maybe - the cylinder was not turned competely to an empty chamber. Have you ever seen a shooter reach for his holstered pistol and have it go off, while it was in his holster? Too much conversation going on at the loading table??? Distractions galore,,New shooter,,Hey, til you have had that happen, and I have seen it and it is scary, I firmly believe that this is a safeguard, clear and simple. OkDee Life always finds a way to be dumb so what are suggesting that we stop using live rounds because someone may at some time have a live one in the tube? Or are you suggesting that we load all firearms on the clock to avoid any problem that might arrise from a live round in the chamber? What if the person arrives at the range with a loaded rifle and avoids the loading table the list goes on and on and on. What does as the thread asks the rifle lever have to do with it? Read the rule, "Hammer fully down on an empty chamber" Its not about all the dumb things that can and do happen there are not enough rules in the world short of banning firearms completely to ensure 100% safe handling by idiots and fools are never going to be banned. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 The position of the hammer is relevant however the position of the lever is not if it is not affecting the posistion of either the hammer or the bolt. When you speak of condition that is a different subject and for the most part is not a part of the hands off initial staging question being wipped to death here. As far a moving and restaging the lever is not a restricted device granted it can be used as an indicator of the probable posistion of the bolt and carrier. However is not restricted except by the lenght it traverses during the levering process. 12 But, it does effect the hammer and bolt. if the lever is down the gun is out of battery. But, more important it can indicate a partially loaded gun. That is the issue and intent of the rule. But it does effect the hammer and bolt. If the lever is sagging down the gun is out of battery. the action is not closed.To the LTO or the TO that is a clue that can indicate a gun is possibly loaded. That is the issue here and the intent of the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Well, maybe the action is closed and maybe it is not. AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM. I don't really CARE if the lever being open an inch or a fraction of an inch and the "action" on ANY particular gun is still closed. A partially open lever DOES raise the question on the firing line by the Timer Operator and any other cowboy who sees it, that the action could be open. Who cares if it's not? MY VIEW IS that, unless a particular gun's lever has an unusual amount of slack, causing it to drop a bit, without "breaking the action" open a tad (and some do), that the shooter must close the lever all the way or face a penalty. End of story. Checking for this should "be the exception and not the rule." There are enough delays and other issues to watch for and pay attention to on the line, without having people doing this intentionally for a competitive edge which is c-h-e-a-t-i-n-g. This trick, if that's what it is, should be smacked down immediately. If it takes a rule change to make it so, or if SASS is unwilling to make a rule change to make it illegal, then local, unilateral enforcement on the firing line by the TO, and then, him being supported later by the match director, is what needs to be done. So then, it's a "local rule." Good enough, I say. SASS should change the rule to make this illeagal. Personally, I can see how "breaking the action" (the bolt/action still appears closed) would give a shooter a slight competitive edge on the first shot and this should not be allowed. There's too much going on to have to check every one of these. Cat Brules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 But it does effect the hammer and bolt. If the lever is sagging down the gun is out of battery. the action is not closed.To the LTO or the TO that is a clue that can indicate a gun is possibly loaded. That is the issue here and the intent of the rule. NKJ I respect your opinion more than most, but unless i'm mistaken in this thread the author wants to penalize someone because their lever is not as close to the frame as he thinks it should be and there is no rule that supports this. Is this dangerous I dont think it is unless some other rules have been violated. I’m not arguing that the shooter could have possibly loaded his rifle but if he did is it any safer to be in battery than out of battery? When you go to the line to stage your rifle either horizontal or vertical the rule we work under is that the “hammer is down on an empty chamber”. If I understand correctly what you are saying is that this is dangerous unless the lever is down touching the frame, although my 73 after removing the lever spring will open a little more than 1/2 inch before the links move which seems to indicate that all things are not equal. There is no advantage in having a rifle setup this way infact after playing with it for a little while this afternoon there is a disadvantage to having the lever 1 inch from the frame/action. Try picking the rifle up this way either by the lever or by the lever and stock its very awkward. If the lever has been modified so that it no longer makes the short stroke rule that’s another matter as is continuous out of battery discharges although I doubt the mechanism will allow that for long. However this isn’t what I understood the thread to be about. Its about how far or where should the lever be to avoid a penalty and I say there is not a rule that supports a lever 1/2 inch, 1 inch, or more away from the action. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Bleedin' Christ, I see another paragraph in the next rulebook for the chowderheads who want to argue about what constitutes a closed action - lever all the way up/slide all the way forward was the obvious intent of "action closed". Shooter comes to line, stages guns - TRO - Please close the action on your rifle. SHOOTER - It is closed. TRO - ? The lever is down... SHOOTER - Oh, it's OK on MY rifle, just not on yours. TRO - Oh... um, could you please pull the lever all the way up anyway? SHOOTER - No. TRO - Then proceed to the unloading table, and unload your guns. SHOOTER - NO. MY rifle is OK like this. "Hammer down" Are you kidding me? How the hell can you argue about the meaning of this? If the hammer is as far down as the gun's mechanical design allows for in a static state, it's down. If not, then it isn't down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 A great deal of the issues being discussed here are really non-issues, unless the Loading Table Officer has his/her head in a dark spot. The Loading Table Officer SHOULD KNOW, without reservation, that the rifles are loaded, Hammer Down on an Empty Chamber. No exceptions. Visual inspection on EVERY rifle being loaded. If the L.T. officer doesn't know this, then he hasn't done his/her job, and needs to be shagging brass . If the L.T. Officer does his job, combined with the Shooters awareness, there should NEVER be a rifle come to the line with a round under the hammer. Secondly, as stated above, so long as the hammer's fully down on the bolt, whether the bolt is locked or not, shouldn't make a whit of difference on the safety of the rifle. Hammer down is just that. Hammer Down. Empty chamber is just that. Empty Chamber. Bolt locked or not shouldn't make any difference here, so long as it was fully forward, or not raising the hammer. Personally, It would be a hinderance in my opinion, if the lever was down a bit, but so long as the hammer wasn't being raised, so what?? Awarding a penalty for a very slightly lowered lever should not happen, IMHO. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 A great deal of the issues being discussed here are really non-issues, unless the Loading Table Officer has his/her head in a dark spot. The Loading Table Officer SHOULD KNOW, without reservation, that the rifles are loaded, Hammer Down on an Empty Chamber. No exceptions. Visual inspection on EVERY rifle being loaded. If the L.T. officer doesn't know this, then he hasn't done his/her job, and needs to be shagging brass . If the L.T. Officer does his job, combined with the Shooters awareness, there should NEVER be a rifle come to the line with a round under the hammer. Secondly, as stated above, so long as the hammer's fully down on the bolt, whether the bolt is locked or not, shouldn't make a whit of difference on the safety of the rifle. Hammer down is just that. Hammer Down. Empty chamber is just that. Empty Chamber. Bolt locked or not shouldn't make any difference here, so long as it was fully forward, or not raising the hammer. Personally, It would be a hinderance in my opinion, if the lever was down a bit, but so long as the hammer wasn't being raised, so what?? Awarding a penalty for a very slightly lowered lever should not happen, IMHO. RBK Can not remember the last time I have even seen a LTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Can not remember the last time I have even seen a LTO. I guess RO1, page 10 article 9 means nothing then??? Al, I shoot in the Houston and surrounding area, and we use LT/ULT Officers at all the clubs I shoot at. Even one that's not SASS affiliated. Seems to me that a SASS affiliated club would be compelled to follow SASS rules and recommendations. Particularly those pertaining to safety. ??????? RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I guess RO1, page 10 article 9 means nothing then??? Al, I shoot in the Houston and surrounding area, and we use LT/ULT Officers at all the clubs I shoot at. Even one that's not SASS affiliated. Seems to me that a SASS affiliated club would be compelled to follow SASS rules and recommendations. Particularly those pertaining to safety. ??????? RBK It means that if you have a LTO then...these are the functions/benefits...whatever. Traveling would expose you to other ways to function in CAS. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 RBK,YOU really need to get out more. There is no rule saying you MUST have an LTO...... MANY clubs do not. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Doggle Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 A great deal of the issues being discussed here are really non-issues, unless the Loading Table Officer has his/her head in a dark spot. The Loading Table Officer SHOULD KNOW, without reservation, that the rifles are loaded, Hammer Down on an Empty Chamber. No exceptions. Visual inspection on EVERY rifle being loaded. The condition of YOUR guns when you leave the LT is YOUR responsibility, not the responsibility of the LTO, if there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 NKJ I respect your opinion more than most, but unless i'm mistaken in this thread the author wants to penalize someone because their lever is not as close to the frame as he thinks it should be and there is no rule that supports this. Is this dangerous I dont think it is unless some other rules have been violated. I’m not arguing that the shooter could have possibly loaded his rifle but if he did is it any safer to be in battery than out of battery? When you go to the line to stage your rifle either horizontal or vertical the rule we work under is that the “hammer is down on an empty chamber”. If I understand correctly what you are saying is that this is dangerous unless the lever is down touching the frame, although my 73 after removing the lever spring will open a little more than 1/2 inch before the links move which seems to indicate that all things are not equal. There is no advantage in having a rifle setup this way infact after playing with it for a little while this afternoon there is a disadvantage to having the lever 1 inch from the frame/action. Try picking the rifle up this way either by the lever or by the lever and stock its very awkward. If the lever has been modified so that it no longer makes the short stroke rule that’s another matter as is continuous out of battery discharges although I doubt the mechanism will allow that for long. However this isn’t what I understood the thread to be about. Its about how far or where should the lever be to avoid a penalty and I say there is not a rule that supports a lever 1/2 inch, 1 inch, or more away from the action. 12 What I am saying ,,,, And this is the Smith in me talking is that the action is not fully closed when the lever is hanging down an inch !!!! Is that plain enough talk to understand ??? I did some careful measuring and with a factory fresh gun of the same model , dropping the lever by a measured amount of .498 of an inch causes the firearm to no longer be locked in battery..... And the bolt can be pushed open with a plastic knife .... Keep in mind this is less than HALF the distance of the firearm that brought the question of What is a Closed Action .. It seems that those that work on guns think than it is Not Closed with the lever open and inch ,,,,Or even half an inch ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Bleedin' Christ, I see another paragraph in the next rulebook for the chowderheads who want to argue about what constitutes a closed action - lever all the way up/slide all the way forward was the obvious intent of "action closed". Shooter comes to line, stages guns - TRO - Please close the action on your rifle. SHOOTER - It is closed. TRO - ? The lever is down... SHOOTER - Oh, it's OK on MY rifle, just not on yours. TRO - Oh... um, could you please pull the lever all the way up anyway? SHOOTER - No. TRO - Then proceed to the unloading table, and unload your guns. SHOOTER - NO. MY rifle is OK like this. "Hammer down" Are you kidding me? How the hell can you argue about the meaning of this? If the hammer is as far down as the gun's mechanical design allows for in a static state, it's down. If not, then it isn't down. There it is. The intent of the rule is the action should appear to be closed. This is because you came to the loading table with it open and just before you loaded it you closed it, lever up and lowered the hammer on the empty chamber. Once the mag is loaded and if it looks like it's not closed, or the hammer isn't fully down or the lever isn't up it has the appearance of possibly being loaded or at least partially loaded into the chamber which constitutes a safety issue. That's the rule and the intent. Why can't we just go with it rather than trying to pick it to death. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Can not remember the last time I have even seen a LTO. I haven't seen the absence of a loading table officer very often, but you are right; it does happen. Probably more at some clubs than others. When I've seen no loading table officer, most of the time, the shooters check one another's revolvers, but not rifles. I guess what is trying to be said is that there is no general, universal guarantee that all weapons leave the loading table with empty chambers and all hammers down on empty chambers. I have no doubt that the vast majority of guns meet proper loading specs (i.e. empty chambers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Having an LTO is a rarity in many parts of the world. We have never utilyzed one around here. Almost as rare as a rifle coming to the line OOB and the lever not all the way closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 There it is. The intent of the rule is the action should appear to be closed. This is because you came to the loading table with it open and just before you loaded it you closed it, lever up and lowered the hammer on the empty chamber. Once the mag is loaded and if it looks like it's not closed, or the hammer isn't fully down or the lever isn't up it has the appearance of possibly being loaded or at least partially loaded into the chamber which constitutes a safety issue. That's the rule and the intent. Why can't we just go with it rather than trying to pick it to death. . . I too believe appearance and intent are definite factors. Solution? Fix your droopy lever so it stays up. Or be prepared and accept the call if it is made on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Bleedin' Christ, I see another paragraph in the next rulebook for the chowderheads who want to argue about what constitutes a closed action - lever all the way up/slide all the way forward was the obvious intent of "action closed". Shooter comes to line, stages guns - TRO - Please close the action on your rifle. SHOOTER - It is closed. TRO - ? The lever is down... SHOOTER - Oh, it's OK on MY rifle, just not on yours. TRO - Oh... um, could you please pull the lever all the way up anyway? SHOOTER - No. TRO - Then proceed to the unloading table, and unload your guns. SHOOTER - NO. MY rifle is OK like this. "Hammer down" Are you kidding me? How the hell can you argue about the meaning of this? If the hammer is as far down as the gun's mechanical design allows for in a static state, it's down. If not, then it isn't down. As a guy who holds the timer a lot, it would just plain worry me to see a rifle in this condition. And, because I am responsible for the safety of the shooter, the posse and my own safety as well I would have to challenge the shooter on it. It's not just good common sense, it's good safety. So, without debate, "go unload your guns and find the MD and get a ruling Mr. Shooter", and BTW if the MD allows it, then HE can run the guy because sometimes your only option is not to participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 As a guy who holds the timer a lot, it would just plain worry me to see a rifle in this condition. And, because I am responsible for the safety of the shooter, the posse and my own safety as well I would have to challenge the shooter on it. It's not just good common sense, it's good safety. So, without debate, "go unload your guns and find the MD and get a ruling Mr. Shooter", and BTW if the MD allows it, then HE can run the guy because sometimes your only option is not to participate. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I guess RO1, page 10 article 9 means nothing then??? Al, I shoot in the Houston and surrounding area, and we use LT/ULT Officers at all the clubs I shoot at. Even one that's not SASS affiliated. Seems to me that a SASS affiliated club would be compelled to follow SASS rules and recommendations. Particularly those pertaining to safety. ??????? RBK Maybe you need to read that agian. And sorry. I shoot at more than just a few places in my own back yard. So might see a few more things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I don't think I have ever witnessed someone purposely staging their rifle with the lever left dangling and hammer appearance being fully down. They fixed the sagging lever before the standby & beep. So this whole topic is rather mute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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