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Double Duelist transition question


Dutch Coroner

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Double Duelist is new for me and I didn't find anything on this when I did a search.

 

My question is, when the handguns are staged out of the holsters on a flat surface, can someone shooting DD (not GF or BW) have their free hand holding their 2nd pistol on the flat surface like they could with a rifle or SG transition? Based on the below it would seem the answer should be no and a Procedural or MSV would be assessed.

 

 

On Page 14 in the shooters handbook:

 

Duelist – At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.

 

Gunfighter - The Gunfighter and B-Western Categories are the only categories that allow two loaded revolvers out of leather at the same time.

 

Page 21 Stage Conventions

3. … All handguns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface must be staged with the entire handgun lying flat on the staging surface.

 

 

Thank you for your input. :)

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The way I've seen and done it is at the buzzer one is brought into battery, the other has to have some art of the revolver touching the table.

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As long as the 2nd pistol does not come up off the table (it is not in hand until your hand is supporting it) - You may hold on to it while you shoot the 1st pistol.

When I was shooting Duelist - I loved taking pistols off the table for exactly that reason, you could get the 2nd pistol into action even faster than normal and it also allows you to use the table to brace yourself.

Exactly the same as wrapping your hand around the wrist of your rifle or shotgun while shooting the 2nd pistol.

Duelist is a tough enough category - it would be silly to not make use of the only advantage that the Duelist has (transition speed).

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correct advice above but caution, if 2nd revolver clears table before last round is fired from 1st revolver you become gunfighter in a duelist category which nets to 10 second P for shooting out-of-category. I like to keep barrel or barrel & grip frame touching table or at least hand on 2nd revolver. While firing 2nd revolver (left usually) I may get rid of 1st to facilitate transition to next gun with right hand. Much to do with stage, heighth of table, and if there is a transition to made at this table to another gun. Unlike T-Bone, Cowhand, and Nuttin, who are exceptional and comfortable at shooting in a lower position, I tend to feel out of position if table is to low and I have to lean over to much on the second revolver while firing first, but often one can stand erect enough that at least the muzzle of 2nd is touching table. As with so much in our game, practice the position.

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I'm watching the You Tube video and then reading Billy Boots response as well.

My opinion is those are in violation of the "Two loaded revolvers in hand" rule.

 

Wrapping your hand around the grip - but the gun remaining on/ supported by the table is different than what I saw in the video and certainly different than the 2nd pistol being held basically at low ready (just muzzle touching table).

 

If you can let go of the 2nd pistol and it will remain exactly where it is - It would be ok.

If letting go of the 2nd pistol will cause it to fall or change position?

Then that pistol is "In hand".

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I would tend to go with T-Bone, Nuttin, Billy Boots on this.

Bet they have used that same way many times at EOT, and the Nationals at WR.

What with Bone having 7-8 World Titles 7-8 National Titles

Nuttin with 5 or so World and National Titles, Billy Boots with ???4-5 World and National

Titles I would think at least, but probably more. All shooting Double Duelist.

Have seen them all do it just like in the video many times.

If that is not legal. Think it would be news to them. And me.

 

I have to be very careful. Having shot GFer for a long time.

When doing that I tend to pick them both up without thinking.

Has cost me a couple times at really big matches. :wacko:

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I would tend to go with T-Bone, Nuttin, Billy Boots on this.

Bet they have used that same way many times at EOT, and the Nationals at WR.

What with Bone having 7-8 World Titles 7-8 National Titles

Nuttin with 5 or so World and National Titles, Billy Boots with ???4-5 World and National

Titles I would think at least, but probably more. All shooting Double Duelist.

Have seen them all do it just like in the video many times.

If that is not legal. Think it would be news to them. And me.

 

I have to be very careful. Having shot GFer for a long time.

When doing that I tend to pick them both up without thinking.

Has cost me a couple times at really big matches. :wacko:

AA,

 

If the rule states that for a Duelist – At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once, how is the right gun in the video not in hand?

 

And as noted Page 21 of the Stage Conventions says that All handguns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface must be staged with the entire handgun lying flat on the staging surface. How is the right gun lying flat on the table in the video?

 

I ask because I'm just starting to shoot duelist (two matches so far) but what I see in the video and what has been quoted in the rules seems to be in conflict.

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I watched the video.

From the vantage point that it was shot it can be plainly seen that the second revolver is "IN HAND". That is to say, if he opened his hand it would fall back to the table as just the barrel and part of the grip is all that is touching the table. The cylinder and hammer are a good two inches clear of the table.

 

My call would be a P for shooting out of category.

 

I had occation to witness this violation at Bordertown this past October. The duelist shooting grabbed both revolvers and shot one with the second revolver held at low ready with the end of the barrel touching the table. To me this is clearly having both loaded guns in hand. The posse leader and the Match Director agreed. P, for shooting out of category.

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AA,

 

If the rule states that for a Duelist – At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once, how is the right gun in the video not in hand?

 

And as noted Page 21 of the Stage Conventions says that All handguns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface must be staged with the entire handgun lying flat on the staging surface. How is the right gun lying flat on the table in the video?

 

I ask because I'm just starting to shoot duelist (two matches so far) but what I see in the video and what has been quoted in the rules seems to be in conflict.

 

 

It was staged flat.

And as far as I am concerned. That right gun is still on the table.

It has not cleared the table. Just like it was in your holster. You can have your other

hand on it. As long as you don't clear leather with it. And he did not clear the table with it.

That is how it was taught to me. And have seen it used like that MANY MANY times just like in the video.

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I'm watching the You Tube video and then reading Billy Boots response as well.

My opinion is those are in violation of the "Two loaded revolvers in hand" rule.

 

Wrapping your hand around the grip - but the gun remaining on/ supported by the table is different than what I saw in the video and certainly different than the 2nd pistol being held basically at low ready (just muzzle touching table).

 

If you can let go of the 2nd pistol and it will remain exactly where it is - It would be ok.

If letting go of the 2nd pistol will cause it to fall or change position?

Then that pistol is "In hand".

 

So you can't pull the 2nd pistol up almost outta leather then? Cuz if you let it go, it ain't gunna hang there in the air.

 

The 2nd revolver is still on the table just as much as a 2nd revolver is in a holster when one pulls it upward...just shy of out...and therefore completely in hand.

:FlagAm:

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The "staged flat" part of the rule is to keep folks from propping one up to make it easier to grab. At least that's always been my understanding.

 

As far as if the second in the video was "in hand" or not, it will be interesting to see what PWB has to say.

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I watched the video.

From the vantage point that it was shot it can be plainly seen that the second revolver is "IN HAND". That is to say, if he opened his hand it would fall back to the table as just the barrel and part of the grip is all that is touching the table. The cylinder and hammer are a good two inches clear of the table. You can have the 2nd revolver in your hand...it just can't clear leather.

My call would be a P for shooting out of category. My call would be No Call...that's just an FYI.

I had occation to witness this violation at Bordertown this past October. The duelist shooting grabbed both revolvers and shot one with the second revolver held at low ready with the end of the barrel touching the table. To me this is clearly having both loaded guns in hand. The posse leader and the Match Director agreed. P, for shooting out of category. If the revolver never left the table then I would say you made a bad call...but I'm sure you argued you're point well...good for you...

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Be glad to hear a ruling from PWB, but as Phantom pointed out, little difference in me having second revolver completely grasped in hand and holster while firing 1st revolver. I sure could have done it wrong the few times I have actually had table staged revolvers, but certainly never been called on it. As I mentioned, for me table heighth dictates if gun is actually in full grasp, flow of stage would enter in also as one little brain fade and I would barely remember to lay my hand on 2nd revovler. Good time to set it straight.

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I'm watching the You Tube video and then reading Billy Boots response as well.

My opinion is those are in violation of the "Two loaded revolvers in hand" rule.

 

Wrapping your hand around the grip - but the gun remaining on/ supported by the table is different than what I saw in the video and certainly different than the 2nd pistol being held basically at low ready (just muzzle touching table).

 

If you can let go of the 2nd pistol and it will remain exactly where it is - It would be ok.

If letting go of the 2nd pistol will cause it to fall or change position?

Then that pistol is "In hand".

 

 

I admit this makes sense, but I have never been told gripping the second to be wrong, could not even tell you who ever taught me it was right (just a gamer move on my part perhaps). However, would a double duelist be expected to only lay his off hand on second revolver at best? If that be the case, my method is certainly easily corrected to that style of off-the-table shooting....I'm not to old to learn and/or be corrected yet. I don't want to knowingly do something others with same shooting style (DD) conceive as wrong. bb

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i'm hoping PWB has a chance to watch this and chime in cause if i understood him correctly last week thats a no bueno.

+1... we were discussing some other rule items in a sort of off-handed way B) and I KNOW that his opinion was "IN HAND" is way different than "HAND ON". He used this type of "IN HAND" as an example of "out of category".

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+1... we were discussing some other rule items in a sort of off-handed way B) and I KNOW that his opinion was "IN HAND" is way different than "HAND ON". He used this type of "IN HAND" as an example of "out of category".

 

 

I think we can agree this is perhaps one of those "rules" that has been misinterpreted or never pointed out to some (such as myself) as being a possible violation if done in the questioned manner. Easy to see how it could have gone unnoticed by many since off-the-table shooting is not seen that often in all areas nor at all big matches. Not always done at WR and at Bar-3 sometimes we do and times we just give the option. Pesonally, I like from holster so glad I do not see O-T-T staging often.

 

BK, Enjoyed our chat at WR.

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So you can't pull the 2nd pistol up almost outta leather then? Cuz if you let it go, it ain't gunna hang there in the air.

 

The 2nd revolver is still on the table just as much as a 2nd revolver is in a holster when one pulls it upward...just shy of out...and therefore completely in hand.

:FlagAm:

 

Aw c'mon Phantom.

You've read my posts - I am as much an advocate for giving latitude to the shooter as anyone in this game.

And I give all due respect to the champions of this game, of which T-Bone and Billy Boots are.

The last thing I would ever do is infer that these gentlemen are doing something wrong - They have too many championships for me to argue with.

 

But I question how a pistol lifted completely off a table, except for the muzzle or the muzzle and a bit of the grip frame is not "in hand"?

 

Or to put it another way - the next time the rifle or shotgun is supposed to start staged on the table - Go ahead and mount the stock on your shoulder, but leave the muzzle touching the table...

I doubt you will get many that will buy that the long gun is not "in hand".

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

If just the muzzle touching the table passes muster, I sure will be changing my off the table technique.

 

 

GAMER!!! :P

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...

But I question how a pistol lifted completely off a table, except for the muzzle or the muzzle and a bit of the grip frame is not "in hand"?

...

 

Same here.

This topic is currently under discussion by the ROC.

The issue (as Phantom mentioned) is the difference between "out of leather" (full grip on the revolver, with the muzzle clear of the mouth of the holster);

and "in hand" in regard to revolvers "...initially staged..." on a flat surface.

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Like Billy.

I am curious to see what PWB has to say.

And with the video to watch of what we are talking about.

We should get a good answer.

As I would not want to be doing it wrong.

 

But to me it is like the holster.

You can have your hand on it. You can move it around in that holster all ya want

as long as you don't clear leather with it before the other gun is dry.

 

So to me. You could have your hand on it. You could move it all over the table if ya wanted.

Just as long as it don't clear the table.

Same as the holster.

 

Think there is a difference from STAGEING it flat. To leaving it flat after the beep.

As long as it don't clear the table.

 

Just how I see it.

And I have been wrong once before. :wacko:

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Same here.

This topic is currently under discussion by the ROC.

The issue (as Phantom mentioned) is the difference between "out of leather" (full grip on the revolver, with the muzzle clear of the mouth of the holster);

and "in hand" in regard to revolvers "...initially staged..." on a flat surface.

 

 

Thanks PaleWolf.

You was posting this as I was typeing my last post.

Will await the outcome.

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So you can't pull the 2nd pistol up almost outta leather then? Cuz if you let it go, it ain't gunna hang there in the air.

 

The 2nd revolver is still on the table just as much as a 2nd revolver is in a holster when one pulls it upward...just shy of out...and therefore completely in hand.

:FlagAm:

 

+1 I totally agree with Phantom and I know not many of us will say that on a regular basis...lol.....but, he is right. If you can pull the second pistol almost out of the holster prior to emptying the first, then why couldn't you raise the pistol from the staged area so long as the muzzle stays in contact with the prop. In both cases the shooter has a total grasp of the second pistol.....in my opinion it would be a no call.

 

KK

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So we wait as the tune for Jeopardy plays softly in the background.

 

I don’t see anything wrong with it...too me it seems no different from barely having the second gun touching leather and you see that every match.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS I KNOW your humming it right now......lol

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This is pretty good stuff.

 

I recall when I was shooting duelist and in that situation where the pistols were staged on a table, when the buzzer went off, I would place a hand on each pistol, one I would pick up and shoot, while the other was cribbed around the pistol as it laid flat on the table. But, the pistol on the table, remained flat and not moving. My hand was like a claw around it, with the trigger finger inside the trigger guard and ready to snatch it up off the table and shoot when finished with the first pistol. I do not believe that I had ever fully gripped both guns at the same time.

 

Course, I never had a video taken of me doin it either! :lol:

 

But as I recall, I was never cautioned or questioned about the technique either.

 

I guess it is somewhat a grey area that could use some better guidance or awareness of all timer operators and duelist's.

 

Cheers,

Oklahoma Dee

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Same here.

This topic is currently under discussion by the ROC.

The issue (as Phantom mentioned) is the difference between "out of leather" (full grip on the revolver, with the muzzle clear of the mouth of the holster);

and "in hand" in regard to revolvers "...initially staged..." on a flat surface.

 

I read this and think how I was never an advocate of second revolver being moved much from holster as 1st is fired (but certainly gripped and ready as this is one of the advantages of shooting double duelist). As RO I may even watch a double duelist to see how they treat the second revolver while 1st is being fired, even cautioned one shooter at EOT one year because I felt he was getting to close to completely clearing holster with 2nd before 1st was empty. (I might add that I think this is often the excitement/stress of moment and not usually a standard practice for those caught easing that 2nd revolver up to high.) Odd that I never gave it much thought as to what I or anyone was doing with revolvers stagged on table top as long as 2nd never was lifted from table during the firing of 1st...again all having to do with the infregrency (at least for me) of shooting table stagged revolvers. In this discussion here I have become aware of the distinct correlation in clearing holster and off-the-table. I will learn from final ruling here as will others, and I would still offer caution to a double duelist on just how far they raised that 2nd revolver from holster during the firing of 1st revovler. A warning of the "jumping category P" if practice is continued should be a certain benefit to DDs, especially those new to style.

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I read this and think how I was never an advocate of second revolver being moved much from holster as 1st is fired (but certainly gripped and ready as this is one of the advantages of shooting double duelist). As RO I may even watch a double duelist to see how they treat the second revolver while 1st is being fired, even cautioned one shooter at EOT one year because I felt he was getting to close to completely clearing holster with 2nd before 1st was empty. (I might add that I think this is often the excitement/stress of moment and not usually a standard practice for those caught easing that 2nd revolver up to high.) Odd that I never gave it much thought as to what I or anyone was doing with revolvers stagged on table top as long as 2nd never was lifted from table during the firing of 1st...again all having to do with the infregrency (at least for me) of shooting table stagged revolvers. In this discussion here I have become aware of the distinct correlation in clearing holster and off-the-table. I will learn from final ruling here as will others, and I would still offer caution to a double duelist on just how far they raised that 2nd revolver from holster during the firing of 1st revovler. A warning of the "jumping category P" if practice is continued should be a certain benefit to DDs, especially those new to style.

 

I hope I get to meet you down the trail. Clearly you are a man to ride the river with and I would like to shake your hand.

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I hope I get to meet you down the trail. Clearly you are a man to ride the river with and I would like to shake your hand.

 

Billy could have easily responded - that's the way I do it. I have won lots of championships and I know best.

But he didn't, he has shown class, humility and an open mind.

 

Even if he had never won a buckle - his words prove him to be a true champion.

I look forward to the honor when I get to shake his hand.

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This is confusing. "In hand" and "out of" seem to be pretty self explanatory language. Its either "in your hand" or it's not. Stages or props can't refute whether it is or isn't. Would the knob on a shift stick not be in hand since its attached to a prop engaging it to the transmission? Of course its in hand, you have some sort of control over it.

Of course "in hand and under control" would be an entirely different proposition since you it infers you're doing more than having palms down on the revolver or just touching it. But what's "in hand and under control?" One finger, two fingers, three or four around a revolver?

Kind of reminds me of starting position " with your right foot on..." scenarios. We all know what "on" looks like, but so many insist that just touching is "on." Reminds me of the stunts my daughter pulls just before I beat her a$$.

"Out of leather"? Isn't that something that happens at a saddle shop?

Funny how in our attempts to use black and white clear cut language it just makes things even more vague. My kids prove that all of the time. So did Bill CLinton.

PWB, I look forward to seeing where this goes.

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Dutch and Creeker,

 

Thanks for the humbling, kind remarks. I, too, hope we can officially met with a handshake in the future.

 

bb

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This is confusing. "In hand" and "out of" seem to be pretty self explanatory language. Its either "in your hand" or it's not. Stages or props can't refute whether it is or isn't. Would the knob on a shift stick not be in hand since its attached to a prop engaging it to the transmission? Of course its in hand, you have some sort of control over it.

Of course "in hand and under control" would be an entirely different proposition since you it infers you're doing more than having palms down on the revolver or just touching it. But what's "in hand and under control?" One finger, two fingers, three or four around a revolver?

Kind of reminds me of starting position " with your right foot on..." scenarios. We all know what "on" looks like, but so many insist that just touching is "on." Reminds me of the stunts my daughter pulls just before I beat her a$$.

"Out of leather"? Isn't that something that happens at a saddle shop?

Funny how in our attempts to use black and white clear cut language it just makes things even more vague. My kids prove that all of the time. So did Bill CLinton.

PWB, I look forward to seeing where this goes.

 

Wow...you beat yer daughters...

:mellow:

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Double Duelist is new for me and I didn't find anything on this when I did a search.

 

My question is, when the handguns are staged out of the holsters on a flat surface, can someone shooting DD (not GF or BW) have their free hand holding their 2nd pistol on the flat surface like they could with a rifle or SG transition? Based on the below it would seem the answer should be no and a Procedural or MSV would be assessed.

 

 

On Page 14 in the shooters handbook:

 

Duelist – At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.

 

Gunfighter - The Gunfighter and B-Western Categories are the only categories that allow two loaded revolvers out of leather at the same time.

 

Page 21 Stage Conventions

3. … All handguns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface must be staged with the entire handgun lying flat on the staging surface.

 

 

Thank you for your input. :)

 

 

Before we stray from Dutch's original post, let's take a look again...at least to the questions I see.

1. The part about a duelist not having two loaded gun IN HAND at same time. We know (I think) that means out of holster not as said IN HAND sooooo this should be clarified. I'd say any good double duelist will have second revolver in hand, or actually gripped firmly, while first revolver in being fired, he/she just has to be careful not to clear holster.

 

2. Question as to what double duelist can do with staged on tabletop revolvers once the beep is heard. Can he/she grip 2nd revolver while 1st is being fired being careful that 2nd revolver DOES NOT completely clear tabletop until 1st is empty. Here is the correlation with #1. OR, can he just merely place hand on 2nd revolver as it lays FLAT on tabletop thus making "staged on tabletop" less equal to double duelist than from leather.

 

Do we agree? What you think Dutch? Aren't these two issues the main question? Again, I believe #1 just needs to be corrected in rules to maybe designate clearing holster and #2 needs to be ruled on whether to be more like #1 or completely different.

 

bb

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