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Double Duelist transition question


Dutch Coroner

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I agree with you completely so why push the envelope? Just leave the gun flat on the table with a hand gripping it or completely holstered with a hand gripping it. That way, there is no question of the rule and nobody is "getting away with something" or being unfairly penalized?

WHY PUSH THE ENVELOPE? :lol: :lol: You're saying in effect that the grip makes no difference? Ever caught a bad grip even with your hand on the gun? Bet you have! ;)

 

BTW- I just tried gripping the gun with the gun flat on the table. Where do your fingers go when you do that? EITHER you have to rock the gun onto the barrel OR the end of the barrel (in varying degree as in Tbone's video)and your hand are all that's touching the table.

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WHY PUSH THE ENVELOPE? :lol: :lol: You're saying in effect that the grip makes no difference? Ever caught a bad grip even with your hand on the gun? Bet you have! ;)

 

BTW- I just tried gripping the gun with the gun flat on the table. Where do your fingers go when you do that? EITHER you have to rock the gun onto the barrel OR the end of the barrel (in varying degree as in Tbone's video)and your hand are all that's touching the table.

 

 

Yep.

Don't think ANYONE doing this ever thought they was pushing anything.

Just doing something that they/we/I thought was 100% legal. So if 100% legal

I would not call that pushing anything.

Just doing the same thing off the table as you are allowed to do out of holster.

That's all.

And unless they state a rule that says it is NOT legal. I still say it IS legal and not

pushing anything.

 

I was going to go shoot tomorrow.

But after reading some of the comments here.

Just don't even feel like it anymore.

Think I would rather work on taxes and then take wife to the movies.

 

Good grief. A man can not even just get a grip on his gun

anymore with out being lawyered up.

Not picking it up like a GFer.

It is still on the dang table.

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I agree with you completely so why push the envelope? Just leave the gun flat on the table with a hand gripping it or completely holstered with a hand gripping it. That way, there is no question of the rule and nobody is "getting away with something" or being unfairly penalized?

 

My reasoning is it may prevent unnecessary arguments and hard feelings. I can certainly see where lesser accomplished shooters than shown in the video may attempt the same thing but inadvertently lift their gun ever so slightly from table and get called for a penalty. I can see where this could lead to arguments like, "I did not" "yes you did" "But so and so does it this way and they don't get called for it." Now, as an RO a call has to be made and the shooter may feel it wasn't the right call and have hard feelings or others on the posse may feel the RO was letting someone "get away" And now the RO or MD is cast in a bad light for either being a hard ass or for showing favoritism.

 

The World Champion shooters don't need the ever slight edge this may or may not be to win and for the wanna be champions it would never be enough time difference for them to win. So again, why push the envelope?

 

There is much truth in Buck, BK, and TT's posts, possibly the reason I, for one, never tried to insist to myself to get the full grip on the 2nd revolver feeling just laying my hand on it worked well enough. However, when all was going my way, table heighth perfect, flow to grip felt right, etc, I would go for the full grip. I few others such as T-Bone perfected the full grip technique much better than I....hench, amusing to watch and learn from. Either way the ruling goes will be fine, if disallowing the full grip then I want have to practice it and just try to be more efficient at laying the hand on 2nd then picking it up quickly as 1st revolver empties.

 

Now that all this is being examined closely and drawing more interested, we do probably need to clarifiy that a grip on 2nd revolver while in holster is just fine (negating the "in hand" issue), as I think the majority of DD have thought, with empasis on NOT clearing leather to early. I trust the RO committee to make the proper call so that we will all be on same level of understanding. This is the type of thread that brings about such moves. Doubt Dutch ever thought his post would draw such attention, but I'm glad he made it and feel positive that we have had a nice civil discussion.....not always true in the "the wars on the warr". In the end we can all agree to "get a grip" or "don't get a grip".(pun intended, sorry couldn't resist).

 

bb

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As some one who runs the timer I want to make fair and consistent calls so I commend PWB and the ROC for their efforts. But to kind of throw a wrench into the works, since a shooter can sign up for GF or BW and shoot every stage as DD would that not allow the shooter to go as far as to pick the second pistol up off the table as long as neither gun is held behind the other. So three shooters sign up for three different categories and all shoot a stage exactly the same but one of them earns a penalty. That may be fair by the rules but kind of hard to call that consistent.

 

Just a thought,

 

Smoke

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As some one who runs the timer I want to make fair and consistent calls so I commend PWB and the ROC for their efforts. But to kind of throw a wrench into the works, since a shooter can sign up for GF or BW and shoot every stage as DD would that not allow the shooter to go as far as to pick the second pistol up off the table as long as neither gun is held behind the other. So three shooters sign up for three different categories and all shoot a stage exactly the same but one of them earns a penalty. That may be fair by the rules but kind of hard to call that consistent.

 

Just a thought,

 

Smoke

 

 

There would be not question at all if a GFer or BW did it.

As they are allowed to pick up the 2nd pistol anytime they want.

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The RO Committee has arrived at a consensus on how to best clarify the question of what is meant by "in hand" as applied to loaded revolvers.

The following will be posted on the TG, RO, and ROC Wires (to be added to the next edit of the RO1 "Glossary of Terms") :

 

 

"REVOLVER IN HAND" is defined as it applies to:

Holstered = Muzzle clear of the mouth of the holster (i.e. "out of leather")

Staged = Muzzle no longer in contact with the surface of the initial staging point

 

...this provides the same allowance for a 'full grip' on the second (loaded) revolver while firing the first no matter how/where the revolver(s) start on the stage.

Once the muzzle clears the holster or all contact is broken with the prop, the shooter is in violation if not registered as a GF or BW competitor.

 

Thanks to all who contributed to the decision-making process.

 

PWB

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TBONE! You're out on bail! :lol: :lol: No wait! CLEARED OF ALL CHARGES :D;) Put away the rope, boys. The jury says all that 'pushin' the envelope' was right all along. :D

 

To heck with those taxes, AA.... there's bullets with fun in them that needs be let out in celebration!

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The RO Committee has arrived at a consensus on how to best clarify the question of what is meant by "in hand" as applied to loaded revolvers.

The following will be posted on the TG, RO, and ROC Wires (to be added to the next edit of the RO1 "Glossary of Terms") :

 

 

"REVOLVER IN HAND" is defined as it applies to:

Holstered = Muzzle clear of the mouth of the holster (i.e. "out of leather")

Staged = Muzzle no longer in contact with the surface of the initial staging point

 

...this provides the same allowance for a 'full grip' on the second (loaded) revolver while firing the first no matter how/where the revolver(s) start on the stage.

Once the muzzle clears the holster or all contact is broken with the prop, the shooter is in violation if not registered as a GF or BW competitor.

 

Thanks to all who contributed to the decision-making process.

 

PWB

 

 

Thank you very much for working on this.

And for what I feel is the correct ruleing on it also.

This puts it to rest.

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There would be not question at all if a GFer or BW did it.

As they are allowed to pick up the 2nd pistol anytime they want.

 

 

My point exactly. Just pointing out what could be construed as inconsistent.

 

Depending on where the ROC draws the line between "in hand" and "on the table", a shooter could just by signing up for a different category negate the ruling.

 

Just to be clear, I do not care where the line is drawn. I will enforce it to the best of my abilities. I also do not care what category a shooter signs up for. I get beat by duelist just as often as GFers or BW shooters.

 

I am just saying this ruling could affect category participation.

 

Smoke

 

While I was typing this PWB posted the ROC ruling. I accept it as any other rule and applaud their efforts.

 

Smoke

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Thanks to the ROC for that clarification!

 

CRR

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Thanks PW & ROC.......and to Dutch for bringing up the question.

 

But now what am I going to follow on wire with any seriousness. I've just got to get a grip.

 

bb

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Thanks PW & ROC.......and to Dutch for bringing up the question.

 

But now what am I going to follow on wire with any seriousness. I've just got to get a grip.

 

bb

 

+1

 

While I had not thought of this issue from this perspective, that is due to limitations on my thinking ability, not any other reason! :lol: Glad to have this cleared up, and I will practice accordingly!

 

Thanks also to T-Bone and others who examine the possibilities with a more agile outlook, and speed up the game for all of us!

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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See what happened was.... there we where all by myself....Thanks to all who watched the worst video ever made of me shooting a stage. That clip was shot 4-5 years ago I think.... Well atleast we can all get back to chasing mosquitos and fire flies. Now I can get my bail money back,,,,, but the two days in the county jail were a little rough on me. See what really matters is we all learn to play together, Lets have some fun,,,, it's just a game.. T-Bone

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We figgered it was easier to write the rule to fit that video than to retrain all y'all Texas boys to do it dif'rent.

;)

 

...and computin' 4-5 years of retro'd "P"s woulda been a nightmare!

 

:P

 

:ph34r:

PWB

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We figgered it was easier to write the rule to fit that video than to retrain all y'all Texas boys to do it dif'rent.

;)

 

...and computin' 4-5 years of retro'd "P"s woulda been a nightmare!

 

:P

 

:ph34r:

PWB

 

And we do thank you. Maybe I will sleep better tonight. ha.

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See what happened was.... there we where all by myself....Thanks to all who watched the worst video ever made of me shooting a stage. That clip was shot 4-5 years ago I think.... Well atleast we can all get back to chasing mosquitos and fire flies. Now I can get my bail money back,,,,, but the two days in the county jail were a little rough on me. See what really matters is we all learn to play together, Lets have some fun,,,, it's just a game.. T-Bone

 

Glad it was available for illustration though...but I do know what your are talking about them bad or a little embarrassing videos getting out. One of those stages on "Cowboys" with me shooting shotgun was my worst stage of the EOT match last year. I noticed you starting with your left in the video, bet you would start with your right nowdays, then reaching for that rifle with your right while shooting left(3/13 edit...after checking video again I see that shooter had to move to rifle so flow starting with left was perhaps best...shame on me for doubting your choice)....not to mention them shotgun targets standing....must have been steerheads or coyotes. Targets with reputations. ha.

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Glad it was available for illustration though...but I do know what your are talking about them bad or a little embarrassing videos getting out. One of those stages on "Cowboys" with me shooting shotgun was my worst stage of the EOT match last year. I noticed you starting with your left in the video, bet you would start with your right nowdays, then reaching for that rifle with your right while shooting left....not to mention them shotgun targets standing....must have been steerheads or coyotes. Targets with reputations. ha.

Maybe he got flocked by them fricken chickens. :o

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Maybe he got flocked by them fricken chickens. :o

 

 

Now BK, I was trying not to bring up them chickens that are loved by so many. ha

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Sure glad to see this clarification and that it specified "REVOLVER IN HAND" so no one could start up about longguns

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Will it really matter in 5-10 years from now?????? Lets have some fun and play in our little part of the the World... I shot Classic Cowboy today and held onto the grip of each pistol,,, I still missed two targets....Voodoo is still alive in South La. at Bayou Blast....Ya'll injoy shootin' this weekend...

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We figgered it was easier to write the rule to fit that video than to retrain all y'all Texas boys to do it dif'rent.

;)

 

...and computin' 4-5 years of retro'd "P"s woulda been a nightmare!

 

:P

 

:ph34r:

PWB

Seems like the rules written for us california cowpokes are all such that we have to be retrained.

 

:ph34r:

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

We figgered it was easier to write the rule to fit that video

PWB

 

Obvious :rolleyes: All on the ROC may now run for congress...

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Dutch: How did you put that video into your reply?

 

Aunt Jen

 

First, go to youtube and copy the address of the video you wish to post. When you "reply," you will see icons at the top (if you don't, change to full editor" and six icons to the right of the smiley face you will see an icon that looks like three little computer monitors. Click on them, past in the address from youtube and then click on "Insert Media." Post the reply.

 

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It's not fair for the fast guys get to shoot with two hands and cock the pistol with thier off thumb.. or grab 6 shot shells or !! or !! or !!! or???? Give the ROC guys a break... fellers he was just joking.... The ROC is not a paying job $$$$$$$$.How about we all sell our guns to each other and then turn around and shoot your buddies guns at a match.I shoot yours ,,You shoot mine,,,, Bud Shoots Pops, Lead Shoots Docs and I will put money on the Table Lead and Bud will still come out on top...Let it go.... It will be alright and won't matter a bit in 20 years from now....Let's all shoot Outlaw with Black Powder full house loads....Then...Back up 4 or 5 feet from your computer----- this post looks just like the rest of them ;) .... Roll the dice and play the game.. Key word Play !!!!Fantasy !!! Not real !!!!! Game...

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It's not fair for the fast guys get to shoot with two hands and cock the pistol with thier off thumb.. or grab 6 shot shells or !! or !! or !!! or???? Give the ROC guys a break... fellers he was just joking.... The ROC is not a paying job $$$$$$$$.How about we all sell our guns to each other and then turn around and shoot your buddies guns at a match.I shoot yours ,,You shoot mine,,,, Bud Shoots Pops, Lead Shoots Docs and I will put money on the Table Lead and Bud will still come out on top...Let it go.... It will be alright and won't matter a bit in 20 years from now....Let's all shoot Outlaw with Black Powder full house loads....Then...Back up 4 or 5 feet from your computer----- this post looks just like the rest of them ;) .... Roll the dice and play the game.. Key word Play !!!!Fantasy !!! Not real !!!!! Game...

 

T-Bone, I knew you was a lot of things but a philospher, gosh, I'm really impressed. See ya in Vegas.

 

Shenny

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T-Bone, I knew you was a lot of things but a philospher, gosh, I'm really impressed. See ya in Vegas.

 

Shenny

 

Philosophizing is a T-Bone specialty. I imagine him pretending he is back in school and the teacher has just given him the assignment of completing this sentence: If I was going to put on a really good match that everyone would enjoy, I'd _________________________. Those who have had the opportunity to get to know him knows that he does an excellent job of completing any sentence regarding how to shoot well, how to help someone, or how to make sure folks have a good time shooting cowboy.

 

If you asked me what the single one thing to do to cause SASS to have the best chance of surviving as the years go by, I'd say convince the Wild Bunch to ask him to join them. I know it's not going to happen, I'm just sayin'.

 

Oh yes, a philosopher extraordinaire. Dang, I hate I'm unable to be at the Midwest Classic!

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