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Double Duelist transition question


Dutch Coroner

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Before we stray from Dutch's original post, let's take a look again...at least to the questions I see.

1. The part about a duelist not having two loaded gun IN HAND at same time. We know (I think) that means out of holster not as said IN HAND sooooo this should be clarified. I'd say any good double duelist will have second revolver in hand, or actually gripped firmly, while first revolver in being fired, he/she just has to be careful not to clear holster.

 

2. Question as to what double duelist can do with staged on tabletop revolvers once the beep is heard. Can he/she grip 2nd revolver while 1st is being fired being careful that 2nd revolver DOES NOT completely clear tabletop until 1st is empty. Here is the correlation with #1. OR, can he just merely place hand on 2nd revolver as it lays FLAT on tabletop thus making "staged on tabletop" less equal to double duelist than from leather.

 

Do we agree? What you think Dutch? Aren't these two issues the main question? Again, I believe #1 just needs to be corrected in rules to maybe designate clearing holster and #2 needs to be ruled on whether to be more like #1 or completely different.

 

bb

I completely agree with your premise regarding having the hand on the revolver with it laying FLAT on the table top in #2. If the goal is to make it equal, then in premise #1 it could be made clear a duelist may have their holstered gun gripped, but the gun must remain completely in the holster. NO keeping just the muzzle of the gun in the holster while drawing it almost out of leather.

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I think the term "staged" should be used. Something along the lines of "second revolver must remain staged until the first revolver has completed enagagements"

 

Yeah, awkward wording but while you are trying to fix it, consider the shooter who has a dud in the first revolver, it is loaded but the round will never be used. Also what of the shooter who accidentally shoots four and holsters while drawing the other, are you going to give him a P for havin two loaded guns in hand? I hope not.

 

Regards,

BJT

 

 

Before we stray from Dutch's original post, let's take a look again...at least to the questions I see.

1. The part about a duelist not having two loaded gun IN HAND at same time. We know (I think) that means out of holster not as said IN HAND sooooo this should be clarified. I'd say any good double duelist will have second revolver in hand, or actually gripped firmly, while first revolver in being fired, he/she just has to be careful not to clear holster.

 

2. Question as to what double duelist can do with staged on tabletop revolvers once the beep is heard. Can he/she grip 2nd revolver while 1st is being fired being careful that 2nd revolver DOES NOT completely clear tabletop until 1st is empty. Here is the correlation with #1. OR, can he just merely place hand on 2nd revolver as it lays FLAT on tabletop thus making "staged on tabletop" less equal to double duelist than from leather.

 

Do we agree? What you think Dutch? Aren't these two issues the main question? Again, I believe #1 just needs to be corrected in rules to maybe designate clearing holster and #2 needs to be ruled on whether to be more like #1 or completely different.

 

bb

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"Yeah, awkward wording but while you are trying to fix it, consider the shooter who has a dud in the first revolver, it is loaded but the round will never be used. Also what of the shooter who accidentally shoots four and holsters while drawing the other, are you going to give him a P for havin two loaded guns in hand? I hope not."

 

Yep, been there, done that. Drawed second revolver then realized I had only fired four from 1st. There I stood with one round in 1st and second out and ready to fire. To late, got the P for that neat trick....and at the Nationals to make it even worse.

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Ouch!!! I know the current rules call that shooting out of category but it just don't sound gunfighter to me.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

 

"Yeah, awkward wording but while you are trying to fix it, consider the shooter who has a dud in the first revolver, it is loaded but the round will never be used. Also what of the shooter who accidentally shoots four and holsters while drawing the other, are you going to give him a P for havin two loaded guns in hand? I hope not."

 

Yep, been there, done that. Drawed second revolver then realized I had only fired four from 1st. There I stood with one round in 1st and second out and ready to fire. To late, got the P for that neat trick....and at the Nationals to make it even worse.

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Ouch!!! I know the current rules call that shooting out of category but it just don't sound gunfighter to me.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

 

BJT, Now that I recall I made the worst out of the situation. I believe I had actually holstered 1st revolver and drawed & cocked 2nd when I was made aware of one round not fired. Must have been a senior moment as I drawed 1st while holding cocked 2nd, engaged target needed to complete sweep for 1st then cominced to do 2nd revolver sweep. Yep, at that moment I was a gunfighter, but I certainly did not feel like one. Had I left the 1st in holster and took the miss I would have certainly bettered myself. Here's another kicker, as I remember, I had just drawed a P on stage prior for shooting out of order. Not a good morning, even the weather was windy and bad. I think you may have been there that year. All this time I am dishing out 10 second Ps to myself little do I know that Lefty was at other end (9-12) having real trouble with wind on the knockdowns...my big chance to get ahead and I blow it. So goes the game.

 

Back to current question (s), if I had my rathers I would just like #1 clearified that the DD could grip 2nd revolver but just not clear holster until 1st is empty...and, I think that is the intent as written. Again, an advantage of shooting DD style. I would also like the #2 question be clearified that DD could, in a staged-on-table scenerio, be able to grip 2nd revolver while 1st is pickedup and being fired AS LONG AS 2nd DOES NOT CLEAR TABLETOP, simular to being holstered in #1. THEN, those that want to do it that way could knowing they are not breaking rules and those of us who have been doing it will not feel we possibly have done something wrong although another DD thought it questionable.

 

Have a good one.

 

bb

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Before we stray from Dutch's original post, let's take a look again...at least to the questions I see.

1. The part about a duelist not having two loaded gun IN HAND at same time. We know (I think) that means out of holster not as said IN HAND sooooo this should be clarified. I'd say any good double duelist will have second revolver in hand, or actually gripped firmly, while first revolver in being fired, he/she just has to be careful not to clear holster.

 

2. Question as to what double duelist can do with staged on tabletop revolvers once the beep is heard. Can he/she grip 2nd revolver while 1st is being fired being careful that 2nd revolver DOES NOT completely clear tabletop until 1st is empty. Here is the correlation with #1. OR, can he just merely place hand on 2nd revolver as it lays FLAT on tabletop thus making "staged on tabletop" less equal to double duelist than from leather.

 

Do we agree? What you think Dutch? Aren't these two issues the main question? Again, I believe #1 just needs to be corrected in rules to maybe designate clearing holster and #2 needs to be ruled on whether to be more like #1 or completely different.

 

bb

 

#2 is my original question and when I found the video with T-Bone doing exactly what I was asking about I thought my question had been answered.

 

But reading the comments to my original question, this really does need to be clarified, and Pale Wolf has indicated that this issue is under discussion by the ROC.

 

I believe that a DD should be able to grip the 2nd gun, just like they do when it is holstered but it can't clear the staged surface until the 1st gun is empty.

 

So, because I am a “Gamer” :D , until the rule is clarified, if faced with this scenario I will ask the RO/Timer Operator about this BEFORE I have to shoot and comply with whatever they say. Does anyone have concerns about that approach? Thanks again everyone.

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B

Back to current question (s), if I had my rathers I would just like #1 clearified that the DD could grip 2nd revolver but just not clear holster until 1st is empty...and, I think that is the intent as written. Again, an advantage of shooting DD style. I would also like the #2 question be clearified that DD could, in a staged-on-table scenerio, be able to grip 2nd revolver while 1st is pickedup and being fired AS LONG AS 2nd DOES NOT CLEAR TABLETOP, simular to being holstered in #1. THEN, those that want to do it that way could knowing they are not breaking rules and those of us who have been doing it will not feel we possibly have done something wrong although another DD thought it questionable.

 

Have a good one.

 

bb

 

Billy, Just remember this should apply to any Duelist, not just folks that shoot left and right handed. It is an advantage for any duelist. I know of many right handed duelist's that, grip the left pistol in the holster, ready to make that transfer to the right hand, once they have shot their 5 rounds in the right pistol and reholstered. The stagin of the guns on a table, may impact these duelist and it may not. I can see a technique where the right or left handed "only" shooting duelist could use the left or right hand to lift the 2nd pistol from the table, as they are restaging the spent 1st pistol and then making the transfer as if it were from the holster.

 

Interesting post.

 

Cheers,

Oklahoma Dee

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Billy, Just remember this should apply to any Duelist, not just folks that shoot left and right handed. It is an advantage for any duelist. I know of many right handed duelist's that, grip the left pistol in the holster, ready to make that transfer to the right hand, once they have shot their 5 rounds in the right pistol and reholstered. The stagin of the guns on a table, may impact these duelist and it may not. I can see a technique where the right or left handed "only" shooting duelist could use the left or right hand to lift the 2nd pistol from the table, as they are restaging the spent 1st pistol and then making the transfer as if it were from the holster.

 

Interesting post.

 

Cheers,

Oklahoma Dee

 

Very good point Dee and if not a DD, I would certainly want to get a good wrap on 2nd readying for the switch when 1st is empty. As BJT suggests, the duelist has to be careful not to get caught in a gunfighter situation (2 loaded revolvers out at same time). I think Dutch was just hunting an answer to a question to assure he was correct in his method, but find (as I have) that not all agreed on answer. Hopefully, answer will not be complicated and soon to follow.

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Before we stray from Dutch's original post, let's take a look again...at least to the questions I see.

1. The part about a duelist not having two loaded gun IN HAND at same time. We know (I think) that means out of holster not as said IN HAND sooooo this should be clarified. I'd say any good double duelist will have second revolver in hand, or actually gripped firmly, while first revolver in being fired, he/she just has to be careful not to clear holster.

 

2. Question as to what double duelist can do with staged on tabletop revolvers once the beep is heard. Can he/she grip 2nd revolver while 1st is being fired being careful that 2nd revolver DOES NOT completely clear tabletop until 1st is empty. Here is the correlation with #1. OR, can he just merely place hand on 2nd revolver as it lays FLAT on tabletop thus making "staged on tabletop" less equal to double duelist than from leather.

 

Do we agree? What you think Dutch? Aren't these two issues the main question? Again, I believe #1 just needs to be corrected in rules to maybe designate clearing holster and #2 needs to be ruled on whether to be more like #1 or completely different.

 

bb

 

 

I am, of course, deeply interested in this thread and how the Rules Committee views these issues.

 

As for question #1, with consecutive revolvers I have always gripped both, but not lifted the second at all until the first was empty. But then, it never occurred to me to partly draw my second pistol. I would think that any draw of the second pistol must be minimal, or it is "in hand."

 

With question #2, the video appears to me that the second revolver is "in hand." It is gripped and fully under the control of the shooter. Touching the table is irrelevant and not mentioned in the rule at all. My own opinion, for what little it is worth, is that the second pistol must remeain flat on the table - the hand can touch it, can be ready to grip it, but cannot lift it at all.

 

BEFORE this thread, as an RO I would have awarded a "P" to the shooter in the video for violating category rules. NOW, THOUGH, I am not so sure. I await a (hopefully PROMPT) ruling on this issue. After all, EOT is just around the corner and one needs practice time to break old habits and form new ones.

 

Great discussion from all the compadres!

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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Ya know.

I never considered what is in the video as NOT being legal.

Because that is what I have seen duelist doing all the time. From the time I started

7 years ago. That is just the way it is done.

Never even heard anyone question it.

 

So I am hoping they rule that like the holster.

Letting us at least get a grip on the thing.

As far as I see it. The table is still supporting it.

The shooter just has a good grip on it. Would hate to see that change.

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Ya know.

I never considered what is in the video as NOT being legal.

Because that is what I have seen duelist doing all the time. From the time I started

7 years ago. That is just the way it is done.

Never even heard anyone question it.

 

So I am hoping they rule that like the holster.

Letting us at least get a grip on the thing.

As far as I see it. The table is still supporting it.

The shooter just has a good grip on it. Would hate to see that change.

 

Since I guess I know most of them folks you been watching the last seven years, I know where your coming from Al. Suspect you are like me not knowing that shooters elsewhere might feel our method was wrong. Just seems like good double duelist technique to me. If I were giving a up-and-coming double duelist advice to being ready with both revolvers I would tell them to grip them both at same time drawing one for firing then soon as it is fires last round comence to draw second revolver.......and if instructing from off-the-table I would suggest the same emphasizing to not clear second from table until 1st is empty. Now I'm wondering if that would be sound advice, we'll see. I really think a ruling will lean to both ideas being accepted methods, hope so.

 

El Gato, you going to practice up for EOT. Guess I better too. ha. Hopefully we will not see any from-the-table staging of revolvers. See ya there. Congratulations again on your finish at WR.

 

 

 

bb

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Since I guess I know most of them folks you been watching the last seven years, I know where your coming from Al. Suspect you are like me not knowing that shooters elsewhere might feel our method was wrong. Just seems like good double duelist technique to me. If I were giving a up-and-coming double duelist advice to being ready with both revolvers I would tell them to grip them both at same time drawing one for firing then soon as it is fires last round comence to draw second revolver.......and if instructing from off-the-table I would suggest the same emphasizing to not clear second from table until 1st is empty. Now I'm wondering if that would be sound advice, we'll see. I really think a ruling will lean to both ideas being accepted methods, hope so.

 

El Gato, you going to practice up for EOT. Guess I better too. ha. Hopefully we will not see any from-the-table staging of revolvers. See ya there. Congratulations again on your finish at WR.

 

 

 

bb

 

Always a pleasure, Boots, to compete with you! And, once again, a hearty WELL DONE for winning FCD at WR! (Have you ever considered FCGF? :rolleyes: )

 

Back to the subject at hand ~ even if I adopt this method of gripping both staged guns, it is not going to advance me a single place at WR or EOT. While I try to analyze each stage for the best transitions, I often don't see the most advantageous path on a scenario. It is a wonder that I don't end up with a flat forehead after a major match, from slapping my head at what seems so obvious AFTER Rosita Gambler does his run.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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I've been sitting here reading this for a while and wondering why I never thought about it before. I have only been shooting DD for a little over a year and I suppose I have sub-consciously decided that when given the chance to stage both pistols, I instinctively resort to shooting both with the strong hand. I think the difference in speed(for me) is less with a staged pair than with a holstered pair and the difference in speed between my strong and weak hand makes up for it.

 

Guess I need more weak hand practice so that this discussion really affects me.

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Always a pleasure, Boots, to compete with you! And, once again, a hearty WELL DONE for winning FCD at WR! (Have you ever considered FCGF? :rolleyes: )

 

Back to the subject at hand ~ even if I adopt this method of gripping both staged guns, it is not going to advance me a single place at WR or EOT. While I try to analyze each stage for the best transitions, I often don't see the most advantageous path on a scenario. It is a wonder that I don't end up with a flat forehead after a major match, from slapping my head at what seems so obvious AFTER Rosita Gambler does his run.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

 

FCGF? not really, if I did I would shoot it as DD, which is certainly acceptable. I do not want to get in habit of lifting the 2nd revolver out of holster and I just can not seem to get my brain into the gunfighter mode/rythum.

 

In the staged pistol scenerio I doubt I always make use of getting a full grip on second revolver as we are reviewing on this thread. Sometimes I just have other things going on in my head, I do try to at least lay my hand on it anyway. If I have the option of holstered or on table I would probably choose holstered as that is what I feel more comfortable with and practice 99% of time. And, I prefer to have the option rather than designation of staged.

 

I've shot with Rosita G, nice guy and certainly a good competitor.

 

bb

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I'm watching this also 'cause the way T-Bone, Nuttin and Billy do it is the way I do it also. Cause them boys are My Hero's B) B) B)

 

 

Yep. You got that right. Those 3 are the ones I watch everytime I can to try and pick up tips.

Bone. Because. Well. He can just flat out shoot.

 

Nuttin. Because he has some of the best transitions for a Duelist I have ever seen.

 

Billy. Because he is one of, if not the smoothest Duelist I have ever seen. You hardly ever

see him make a mistake. Not jerky motions. Just smooth and fast.

 

When I was thinking about putting together a How To Duelist Video. Those 3 was the ones I was wanting to

have in it.

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Yep. You got that right. Those 3 are the ones I watch everytime I can to try and pick up tips.

Bone. Because. Well. He can just flat out shoot.

 

Nuttin. Because he has some of the best transitions for a Duelist I have ever seen.

 

Billy. Because he is one of, if not the smoothest Duelist I have ever seen. You hardly ever

see him make a mistake. Not jerky motions. Just smooth and fast.

 

When I was thinking about putting together a How To Duelist Video. Those 3 was the ones I was wanting to

have in it.

 

 

With great respect for all these honorable compadres, who all shoot better than I ever will even in my dreams, just because they may use a particular technique doesn't make it right under the rules. THIS PARTICULAR RULE needs clarifying so that we all know what is permitted and what is a violation.

 

Salud,

eGG

(who is in awe of their abilities!)

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With great respect for all these honorable compadres, who all shoot better than I ever will even in my dreams, just because they may use a particular technique doesn't make it right under the rules. THIS PARTICULAR RULE needs clarifying so that we all know what is permitted and what is a violation.

 

Salud,

eGG

(who is in awe of their abilities!)

 

T think all reading and following this thread would certainly agree with you eGG, and I would hope they also would know those compadres doing the method in question were performing this method in a manner they thought within the rules never being told any different. Again, I emphasis that staged revolers is not something demanded that often, at least where I shoot.

 

I appreciate and am honored by some of the flatering comments this thread has brought me, however I will accept any correction/scolding to a method I have used on occasions and thought within rules. CAS continues to be a learning experience.

 

bb

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With great respect for all these honorable compadres, who all shoot better than I ever will even in my dreams, just because they may use a particular technique doesn't make it right under the rules. THIS PARTICULAR RULE needs clarifying so that we all know what is permitted and what is a violation.

 

Salud,

eGG

(who is in awe of their abilities!)

 

 

Did not mean to imply that.

 

Well. Maybe I did at first.

Because I have seen it so much, or at least whenever staged pistols comes up. And and have never heard of it ever being questioned before.

Think MANY, of us Double Duelist (not just them) have thought it to be legal for a long time.

But now like Billy. I am curious to see what the ruling is.

 

But you can be sure. If they even thought that it was not legal. They would not have been doing it.

So this will be good to see how it comes out.

And if deemed not legal.

I am sure they will adjust.

And as we are seeing. Even the rules committee member was not sure enough to give an answer.

 

Just that some, like me. Respect them so much. And watch them so close. (to pick up tips)

And know that they would never do anything they thought was not legal.

That it was just never a question as to if legal or not.

 

So I am very curious about how this turns out.

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But you can be sure. If they even thought that it was not legal. They would not have been doing it.[/quote]

 

 

I am quite certain that this is true. Not questioning anyone's integrity, just the interpretation of the rule. If anybody felt I was impugning his honesty and sense of fair play, I assure one and all that such was not my intention.

 

Salud!

eGG

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UPDATE:

The ROC is very close to a consensus on this issue.

I'll post the final ruling ASAP once a majority of the members respond.

 

 

Thank you for your patience.

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Well the way I see it.... Make a rule... right it down and stick to it... But remember don't back down when your buddy makes a mistake. If someone is upset because a duelist shooter is closing the gap on him or another shooter, Quit crying like a baby and step up to duelist. You should be a duelist shooter to vote on this topic,, Ya'll can change and come on over to a different catagory...We have spent alot of time and took the time to learn this sport.Put your big boy panties on and shoot. It's a gunfight not a lawyers office!!!! T-Bone Dooley

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I really don't think this was an issue until the rule about revolvers having to be flat on the table when staged. I began shooting at a time when there were less rules, and locals pretty much had their own interpretations of different things. I remember folks stacking their pistols, to where one would stand up to be grabbed quicker. Others would lay the rifle over the shotgun to make it easier to pick up. There were no rules against it, personal views not withstanding.

 

With the advent 4 years or so ago of the stage conventions and the clarification of how fa long guns must be on the table, and pistols being flat, I guess this changed some things. I never really thought about it until the discussion here. I believe that shooters were trying to gain an advnatge, but not trying to break any rules. That sort of person doesn't seem to fit in too well with our group, and are soon gone.

 

I will await the ROC ruling, and shoot my guns, as well as RO, accordingly. I will say that if the ROC rules "In Hand" means only one hand may be wrapped around the grip of one revolver that it would also apply to in the holster. And be applied equally for all categories, one or two handed shooters. I do know some two handers that will shoot two strong side revolvers.

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UPDATE:

The ROC is very close to a consensus on this issue.

I'll post the final ruling ASAP once a majority of the members respond.

 

 

Thank you for your patience.

I for one anxiously await the answer, the only two matches I've shot this year have been Double Duelist and I'm trying to learn transitions. I'd just like to know what I can and cannot do before I practice the wrong way.

 

Randy

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Put your big boy panties on and shoot. It's a gunfight not a lawyers office!!!! T-Bone Dooley

 

 

Uncalled for, compadre. Ad hominem attacks don't clarify the issue. What we have is an honest disagreement among honorable cowboys over what a rule means. Let's find out.

 

Cordially,

eGG

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Well the way I see it.... Make a rule... right it down and stick to it... But remember don't back down when your buddy makes a mistake. If someone is upset because a duelist shooter is closing the gap on him or another shooter, Quit crying like a baby and step up to duelist. You should be a duelist shooter to vote on this topic,, Ya'll can change and come on over to a different catagory...We have spent alot of time and took the time to learn this sport.Put your big boy panties on and shoot. It's a gunfight not a lawyers office!!!! T-Bone Dooley

:DB):lol::D:lol::D:lol:

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This is why I went to Outlaw last year... I also wait for the ruling..... soon we will have enough rules to out rule our rules we have in place the rule the rules...Kindda sounds alot like our goverment.... If you Read into the rules to much you'll have so many questions. The Judge wanted us to have fun FUN and just fun. It's a fantasy sport not reality. Lets play not work....Break out the BBQ cooker and some fancy music. Sorry about the big boy panties comment ..... I ment to say clean underwear. I sorry for that....I apologize from red red river county and back....

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Uncalled for, compadre. Ad hominem attacks don't clarify the issue. What we have is an honest disagreement among honorable cowboys over what a rule means. Let's find out.

 

Cordially,

eGG

 

If yer callin a spade a spade, in ain't "Ad hominem". If yer pickin nits about touching a gun while shooting another, well ... how about can a duelist pick up or touch his rifle before his last pistol is empty?

 

CR

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I believe tests using a timer would reveal that the very good shooters can pick up a pistol staged flat on the table (with their hand on the gun) and get the first shot off as quickly as they can with it gripped with the butt and barrel touching the table as seen in the video. I suspect the same is true if a pistol is gripped and "nearly" out of the holster as opposed to having it gripped and completely in the holster.

 

If there was any difference, it would surprise me to find as much as even 5/100ths of a second. If there was a difference, I would attribute any gain in speed to the fact that the gun is already fully gripped and therefore in control quicker. I'm a huge fan of gun control...in this sense.

 

This reminds me of a situation I encountered with a stage writer whose goal seemed to be to do everything he thought (misunderstood) would slow down fast shooters. On one stage, he had written it so that the shooter's hands were placed palms up on a table instead of what we commonly see with palms down. I found it funny because I couldn't think of a situation where I might end up at a table with my palms up other than a séance chanting "Bill Hickok, come into my hands."

 

It caused a good deal of conversation with shooters until it was pointed out that in the length of time it took to move your hands from the table to the guns, there was PLENTY of time to turn the hands over. It slowed no one.

 

I'll give credit to all who have posted here because I haven't read a post that I thought was trying to be anti anything, but rather just looking for a clarification of the rules. This is not a bad thing because sometimes even those who don't like the shooting lawyers (those looking to penalize) still have to deal with them. I've found that with some shooting lawyers, even having plainly written words is not enough.

 

Instead of trying to beat fast double duelist with rules, I just cast a spell on 'em. I'm still looking for a spell that works. Hmmmmm....maybe a voodoo doll. :lol:

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.

 

Instead of trying to beat fast double duelist with rules, I just cast a spell on 'em. I'm still looking for a spell that works. Hmmmmm....maybe a voodoo doll. :lol:

 

Have ya just tried breaking their fingers? It ain't fair that they should go that much faster.

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I'm impressed with each and every post on this thread. No one is trying to get away with anything. Often on this here SASS WAHR it can be dang tiring to make every rule a 'lawyered' event. But, clearly that's the nature of clarifying rules and applying them to competition.

 

With due respect to all, I would like to say to TBone Dooley that anyone shooting duelist style today owes more than a tip of the hat to you. IMNSHO there's not a more honorable shooter in SASS. Speaking for myself, having read every one of the posts more than once; NO ONE is saying that you did anything wrong.

 

It may feel to you as if there's a bunch of city dogs biting your ass. But from my perspective, we're honored as a group to be able to use that footage of you as an example of what the best in our sport understands now so that we ALL understand this grey-area-rule better in the future.

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If yer pickin nits about touching a gun while shooting another, well ... how about can a duelist pick up or touch his rifle before his last pistol is empty?

 

CR

 

It's not picking nits - it's either FOLLOWING the rules or it's not.

And the rules currently say that only a Gunfighter may have two loaded revolvers in hand.

So Duelists (the ones that are actually affected by the rules) are seeking clarification.

(also the rules specifically say two "Revolvers" not two loaded "Guns" - so a Duelist may shoot a pistol while holding their rifle)

 

This is a time sensitive game - if there is a method that is faster AND legal, then it needs to be known to all that they may use it.

If an existing method is not legal, then those that are using it need to know so that it does not affect their placements somewhere down the road.

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I believe tests using a timer would reveal that the very good shooters can pick up a pistol staged flat on the table (with their hand on the gun) and get the first shot off as quickly as they can with it gripped with the butt and barrel touching the table as seen in the video. I suspect the same is true if a pistol is gripped and "nearly" out of the holster as opposed to having it gripped and completely in the holster.

 

If there was any difference, it would surprise me to find as much as even 5/100ths of a second. If there was a difference, I would attribute any gain in speed to the fact that the gun is already fully gripped and therefore in control quicker. I'm a huge fan of gun control...in this sense.

I agree with you completely so why push the envelope? Just leave the gun flat on the table with a hand gripping it or completely holstered with a hand gripping it. That way, there is no question of the rule and nobody is "getting away with something" or being unfairly penalized?

 

My reasoning is it may prevent unnecessary arguments and hard feelings. I can certainly see where lesser accomplished shooters than shown in the video may attempt the same thing but inadvertently lift their gun ever so slightly from table and get called for a penalty. I can see where this could lead to arguments like, "I did not" "yes you did" "But so and so does it this way and they don't get called for it." Now, as an RO a call has to be made and the shooter may feel it wasn't the right call and have hard feelings or others on the posse may feel the RO was letting someone "get away" And now the RO or MD is cast in a bad light for either being a hard ass or for showing favoritism.

 

The World Champion shooters don't need the ever slight edge this may or may not be to win and for the wanna be champions it would never be enough time difference for them to win. So again, why push the envelope?

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If yer callin a spade a spade, in ain't "Ad hominem". If yer pickin nits about touching a gun while shooting another, well ... how about can a duelist pick up or touch his rifle before his last pistol is empty?

 

CR

 

 

Hola, CR ~

 

Doesn't matter whether a personal attack is true or false - it is not cogent to the issue of just what is "in hand." Therefore, it is "ad hominem." After all, it is exactly what politicians do when they don't want to face the issues (SORRY, T-BONE, THIS DOESN'T APPLY TO YOU!)

 

As for rifles, the rule is:

 

On Page 14 in the shooters handbook:

 

Duelist – At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.

 

So, it doesn't apply to rifles or shotguns. And, by the way, I have never called anyone on this. My assumptions are just that ~ assumptions. Nor did I bring up the subject. I'm just interested in the outcome so I can adjust my own shooting style accordingly, and so, as an RO II, I can make correct calls on the line. Just trying to get educated.

 

Creeker has it right.

 

Buena suerte, amigo

eGG

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...

But from my perspective, we're honored as a group to be able to use that footage of you as an example of what the best in our sport understands now so that we ALL understand this grey-area-rule better in the future.

That video is an invaluable tool for illustrating exactly what we're discussing.

 

It's not picking nits - it's either FOLLOWING the rules or it's not.

And the rules currently say that only a Gunfighter may have two loaded revolvers in hand.

So Duelists (the ones that are actually affected by the rules) are seeking clarification.

(also the rules specifically say two "Revolvers" not two loaded "Guns" - so a Duelist may shoot a pistol while holding their rifle)

 

This is a time sensitive game - if there is a method that is faster AND legal, then it needs to be known to all that they may use it.

If an existing method is not legal, then those that are using it need to know so that it does not affect their placements somewhere down the road.

 

That is one of the primary reasons this is being addressed for clarification. (thanks, Creeker)

At issue is the definition of "in hand" in regard to staged revolvers.

It has already been 'ruled' that "out of leather" means that the muzzle of a revolver is clear of the mouth of the holster (and vice versa).

 

The RO Committee is NOT looking to find ways to penalize anyone; rather to ensure that the same call is made at all SASS-rules matches.

Our goal is CONSISTENCY from one club to another in the application of the rules of the game.

A "no call" at one club/match/state that is penalized at another is extremely detrimental to that objective.

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