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Marshal Dan Troop 70448

Equal or not

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What with the forum on Stupid club rules, got me thinking about some of the matches and how clubs run them, not monthlies, but states and their annual, would you say all shooters are shooting the stages equally if:

A card pick or spin of the wheel determines how you will shoot the stage.

If after many shooters (especially shotgun targets, like plate racks or Texas star), the target/s need re-adjustments because one shot knocks multiple targets down. This means those before might have had an advantage??

Because of the backdrop not being a hill or dirt mound, rather trees, spotters have a tendency to call misses just because they don't hear metal.

Another one is were the light of day changes a stage to blindness for only one posse, having the sun directly in your eyes. MT

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Most sports are like that. My other sport is Mud Bogging. Some days it's best to go 1st and not have to follow the ruts from the other trucks. Other days it's best to go last letting the other guys push the mud and water out of the pit. You pay your money and take your chances.

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It seems there is noway to ensure that everyone has it the same as everyone else. The conditions will change for each person according to time of day as well as changes in weather. Seems to me that in this sport as any other you have to adapt to the conditions as they are and do the best that you are able.

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Never shot a stage where anything was determined by the draw of a card or spin of a wheel, might be fun for a monthly, but I don't think it's appropriate for a state or above match, maybe even annual. Too random.

 

As far as targets out of adjustment, if multiple targets go down with one shot, sounds like stage design is questionable. If targets get out of adjustment so quickly it sounds like time for new targets.

 

Sunshine, rain, clouds, etc, you have no control over, it is what it is. Same with backdrop, everyone shoot the same stage. You do the best that you can, learn from your mistakes, and those of others and move on. The game is supposed to be FUN, not an exercize in nit picky chip on the shoulderness.

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As far as targets out of adjustment, if multiple targets go down with one shot, sounds like stage design is questionable. If targets get out of adjustment so quickly it sounds like time for new targets.

 

That's the one that gets me. MT

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Ya try to keep the match running evenly, but it's probably even more important to keep the match running. For problems like KD target adjustment, when you discover a problem, fix it so that you get "back" to where it was when you started, if you can. Or your best job of making it "close enough".

 

If you want everything equal, then you may want to shoot bullseye matches with every competitor on the line at once, firing at exactly the same target in same weather and light conditions.

 

From the several larger matches that I've shot, I'd say we pay about the right amount of attention to making the matches come out "close enough to even" for my taste. We get a lot of fun (compared to bullseye matches) when shooting CAS - for that, I can give up a little on the "exactly even" part.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Hi MT,

 

Yep, I've seen the light of day problems. There may be nothing to do to fix it. I just hope new ranges can plan so that there is less of it. Our Cowboy Town, which is relatively new, faces NW and doesn't have those problems.

 

Dead steel and target placement can create fixable problems. I felt like I got one, or two, unearned pistol misses this week due to dead steel. I didn't say anything, nor will I. The last time I complained, it was over splatter. I got hit painfully three times at a match and one on my cheek was so hard it gave me an edema in my eye. That complaint wasn't well received. So, I know complaining about dead steel would just get me marked as a...bleep.

 

Regards,

 

AM

 

PS I'm feeling rather blue... I try to be constructive...oh, never mind.

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Ya try to keep the match running evenly, but it's probably even more important to keep the match running. For problems like KD target adjustment, when you discover a problem, fix it so that you get "back" to where it was when you started, if you can. Or your best job of making it "close enough".

 

If you want everything equal, then you may want to shoot bullseye matches with every competitor on the line at once, firing at exactly the same target in same weather and light conditions.

 

From the several larger matches that I've shot, I'd say we pay about the right amount of attention to making the matches come out "close enough to even" for my taste. We get a lot of fun (compared to bullseye matches) when shooting CAS - for that, I can give up a little on the "exactly even" part.

 

Good luck, GJ

Thanks for the comment, but it was meant as it was written rather thoughts on things I've heard at some matches, ( I ignored making comments or answering them)just thought I would see what the wire shooters thoughts were, seems I may have made a mistake. Suddenly we're talking "Bullseye". If you ever shot longrange Bullseye, you know wind, temperature, are factors. I'm talking 300+ yards which I use to shoot. But thats not meant for here. MT

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What with the forum on Stupid club rules, got me thinking about some of the matches and how clubs run them, not monthlies, but states and their annual, would you say all shooters are shooting the stages equally if:

A card pick or spin of the wheel determines how you will shoot the stage.

If after many shooters (especially shotgun targets, like plate racks or Texas star), the target/s need re-adjustments because one shot knocks multiple targets down. This means those before might have had an advantage.

Because of the backdrop not being a hill or dirt mound, rather trees, spotters have a tendency to call misses just because they don't hear metal.

Another one is were the light of day changes a stage to blindness for only one posse, having the sun directly in your eyes. MT

Howdy Marshal, when I started CAS it was just at the end of the era of crazy stuff on the clock. There were a few big matches where chance played a big role in the outcome of a stage, and little consideration was given to stage setup were the sunlight and background may play a role. Since then I think most match directors have learned what worked and what didn't, they listened to thier guests. Most now go out of thier way to produce a fun and fair match. IMHO SASS is having it's best days right now. :) Good Luck

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Howdy Marshal, when I started CAS it was just at the end of the era of crazy stuff on the clock. There were a few big matches where chance played a big role in the outcome of a stage, and little consideration was given to stage setup were the sunlight and background may play a role. Since then I think most match directors have learned what worked and what didn't, they listened to thier guests. Most now go out of thier way to produce a fun and fair match. IMHO SASS is having it's best days right now. :) Good Luck

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Hey partner, yes its feedback that helps improve each match put on. Since writing many and asking afterwards how it was or wasn't good, has helped me write better and improve the matches.

Several big matches have come on the wire and asked afterwards what the shooters thoughts were, these are the matches that care for their shooters and can only go forth in bringing bigger and better matches. Then there are those few that don't care for thoughts of what the shooters thought, luckily there are only a few. Good comment. Thanks, MT

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Yeah, and I hate it when I get no breeze to blow my smoke away and other BP shooters do get a breeze. It's just part of the game. If you're shooting a stage in the morning and have the sun in your eyes and shooters later in the day don't, or any other weather variables, it's just part of the game. Doesn't make me want to stay home.

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Stage outcome or the way a stage is shot should not be determined by chance.

 

Clubs do the best they can with the resources they have and within the limitations set forth by the host venue to make sure all shooters shoot the same targets.

 

That's just bad spotting.

 

When you can control the weather let me know.

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I think an excellent example of the wrong part of the question was Top Shot where one guy went home because his team couldn't get a knife to stick in a log. What part of shooting does that relate to?

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A lot of the things you were talking about used to be issues .

 

Think the reason Winter Range is such a popular match is lighting is pretty much not an issues ,they don't have dumb luck stages ,and the shotgun targets are what they are and you must aim at them.

 

The fairest match possible for all shooters to get the same run..............that being said the weather has affected that match several times .

 

But with the addition of gravel and such hopefully that will even take most of those issues outa the mix.

 

But even with all that ..........the good ole boy system can come into play and misses and hits are seen differently .........so till falling targets are made that hold calibration and are recalibrated between posse's

 

And ALL targets are fallers........there never will be a true EVEN match between all competitors.......so like the man said ............ya pay yer money and ya take yer chances ;)

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When I was shooting trap competitively, one could never tell what to expect at a bigger shoot, like a state shoot or the Grand American. With so many shooters and squads, weather could change dramatically, going from chilly mornings to steamy hot days to hard rain, all in one Ohio summer day! When both the Ohio shoot and the Grand were held in Vandalia, there was nothing quite like being on one of the banks that would get runway traffic. You could usually hear a plane coming in for a landing when the wind was blowing the right way, but having a jet blowing kerosene fumes in your face is no fun at all. Oddly, I never did see one of the big shooters shooting those banks, even when the wind was not an issue.

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What with the forum on Stupid club rules, got me thinking about some of the matches and how clubs run them, not monthlies, but states and their annual, would you say all shooters are shooting the stages equally if:

A card pick or spin of the wheel determines how you will shoot the stage.

If after many shooters (especially shotgun targets, like plate racks or Texas star), the target/s need re-adjustments because one shot knocks multiple targets down. This means those before might have had an advantage??

Because of the backdrop not being a hill or dirt mound, rather trees, spotters have a tendency to call misses just because they don't hear metal.

Another one is were the light of day changes a stage to blindness for only one posse, having the sun directly in your eyes. MT

 

You can't control the weather. BUT you can have stationary burm marshals to help ensure that all stages are at least run the same way. Now, EOT doesn't have these even though they had (again) some folks who shot stages differently from others this year. That would lead one to wonder why? If you are going to run the World Championship, wouldn't you do everything in your power to make sure every one shoots the same match?

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You can't control the weather. BUT you can have stationary burm marshals to help ensure that all stages are at least run the same way. Now, EOT doesn't have these even though they had (again) some folks who shot stages differently from others this year. That would lead one to wonder why? If you are going to run the World Championship, wouldn't you do everything in your power to make sure every one shoots the same match?

 

Yep...and yes, the EoT thing last year was a major screw up IMHO.

 

:FlagAm:

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Stage outcome or the way a stage is shot should not be determined by chance.

 

Clubs do the best they can with the resources they have and within the limitations set forth by the host venue to make sure all shooters shoot the same targets.

 

That's just bad spotting.

 

When you can control the weather let me know.

 

 

What Stump said

 

AND

 

We have seen (and likely will continue to see) thinking men and women refine the stages at their shoots, the venues, the props and equipment, and yes, the game itself over time. It's "more fair" today than it's ever been at most big matches. Bottom line, we're in the entertainment business, and making sure as much as ya can folks don't feel "robbed" is a part of a successful shoot.

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In the name of "fairness" I think that's why the bigger two-day shoots split the posses so that on one day you shoot in the morning, the next day in the afternoon. At least that's how they do it at Guns of August. That way nobody is handicapped or given an advantage based on where the sun is.

 

As Driftwood alluded to, BP shooters have to contend with other factors like windshifts, lack of wind, and humidity. Those things are just the occupational hazards we have to put up with.

 

Shooting in the woods poses special challenges for spotters? True. It just makes them better spotters because of it.

 

I've seen Texas Stars and plate racks have multiple take-downs with one hit. Nobody had an advantage before or after the shooter that did it. It just meant the shooter was using a rather strong loading. They still had to take all 10 shots, even if it was where the targets had been. Next pard up with the smaller rifle with the lighter loading still picked 'em off and knocked 'em down.

 

All things being equal, everything's equal. ;)

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Tha shoots I shoot at are ran purdy dern fair. There's no way ta make things perfect so ya do tha best ye can, that said Do tha best ye can. I think all 10 stage matches should have berm marshals. I don't understand EOT but they run tha show and may see clearer than I. I've wanted ta beat Evil Roy all my shooting years in SASS, but it ain't worth a plug nickel ta beat him in a wrong way. If anything let your competitor say "when".

 

 

RRR

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I wouldn't want to see a turn of the card or something else that is purely luck have an affect on the outcome of the stage.

 

The other issues, wind, rain, the occasional unruly target, that is all just part of it and I think most matches are about as fair as they can be.

 

I shot an annual back in '09. It rained so hard that I thought we were going to have to tear down the store fronts and start building an ark. One of the posses had to shoot their last stage in a monsoon, with water that was over ankle deep running through the stage. Really no way to plan or avoid that.

 

I shot another annual that was on the morning and afternoon system. First group shot in the morning the first day, and in the afternoon the second day. The second group got rained on both days, and the first group shot basically rain free both days. Again, no way to plan for that.

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What with the forum on Stupid club rules, got me thinking about some of the matches and how clubs run them, not monthlies, but states and their annual, would you say all shooters are shooting the stages equally if:

A card pick or spin of the wheel determines how you will shoot the stage.

 

This is just poor stage design! The person who wrote it should know better!

 

If after many shooters (especially shotgun targets, like plate racks or Texas star), the target/s need re-adjustments because one shot knocks multiple targets down. This means those before might have had an advantage??

 

This is an issue for the rangemaster! It simply shouldn't happen however there are some things that don't always work the way they first look on setup day. (Sometimes there ain't nothing you can do but remember NOT to use that target/prop/etc again) If you're using stuff like this, make DARNED sure it stays set where you need it to!

 

Because of the backdrop not being a hill or dirt mound, rather trees, spotters have a tendency to call misses just because they don't hear metal.

 

Blind/deaf/slow (being nice here,) spotters happen from time to time. What's a feller to do?

 

Another one is were the light of day changes a stage to blindness for only one posse, having the sun directly in your eyes.

 

Now this here one you shouldn'ta asked... I don't think the Big feller in charge'a the sun reads the wire all that much!

 

MT

 

There are some conditiions that are far beyond the ability of ANY club or rangemaster, match director or Grand Exalted Poo-bah to deal with.

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PS I'm feeling rather blue...

 

:(

 

HUG?

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After reading all the posts of this thread; The pro's and con's, And all the inputs about equipment, It would seem that the most offensive and correctable move on the part of shoot management has to do with the "good ol' boy network". I would certainly agree! I shot many a year of NSSA skeet and noticed early on that the management (also long time skeet shooters) were good ol' buddies with some of the top shooters at the match. So you would see skewed squadding and shoot order among other more blatant things. I have not shot SASS long enough to even begin to notice if that exists in small form or not at all. I'm sure more veteran shooters could answer this more definitively as it applies to SASS. But if it does exist in SASS clubs, it's an ugly thing which has no business there at all and should be purged at all costs. Smithy.

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Fortunately, most of what I have seen over the past couple or so years indicates that most matches got the memo regarding putting things in the mix that gave advantages to one shooter over another (such as drawing cards to determine target order). They have chosen not to include such nonsense in their matches. Thus, they continue being a "big" match as opposed to an annual with only a slight increase in attendance over their regular monthly matches.

 

When it comes to weather variations, sun in they eyes and such, I've heard that stopping the rotation of the Earth would stop all of that, but they claim that would really mess things up. :D

 

Most are doing their best to make sure matches are as fair as possible…and I sure do appreciate it.

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What with the forum on Stupid club rules, got me thinking about some of the matches and how clubs run them, not monthlies, but states and their annual, would you say all shooters are shooting the stages equally if:

MT

 

wow

we arent equal in age, ability, height, wieght, IQ and so on

geeeeeese

 

are you bored again????????????????????//

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...When it comes to weather variations, sun in they eyes and such, I've heard that stopping the rotation of the Earth would stop all of that, but they claim that would really mess things up. :D

:o:lol:

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wow

we arent equal in age, ability, height, wieght, IQ and so on

geeeeeese

 

are you bored again????????????????????//

 

You are sooooooooo right...I'm way better then you...younger...faster...better looking...the list goes on and on and on...

 

:rolleyes:

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That's the one that gets me. MT

Maybe like when shooting a rack of 6 targets and the instructions are to shoot the two outer targets (far left and far right) and both of them fall with the shot on the left target, and the shooter then shoots the rightmost that is left standing (the one he was supposed to shoot already had fallen) and gets a 'P' for shooting the wrong target?????

I was there and saw it happen

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Maybe like when shooting a rack of 6 targets and the instructions are to shoot the two outer targets (far left and far right) and both of them fall with the shot on the left target, and the shooter then shoots the rightmost that is left standing (the one he was supposed to shoot already had fallen) and gets a 'P' for shooting the wrong target?????

I was there and saw it happen

Hi Boyd,

 

Over the years one learns that plate racks tend to to that and the scenario should be written in a manner to prevent the target from being a P trap. This is usually accomplished by saying something like "With both pistols, engage the five plates until down, engage the dump plate with remaining rounds, if any. Any plates still standing are misses as are misses on the dump plate, if engaged."

 

I hope the scenario writer learned by his/her mistake in creating a P trap.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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You are sooooooooo right...I'm way better then you...younger...faster...better looking...the list goes on and on and on...

 

:rolleyes:

 

iffen things work equally (stars alinging and stuff like that)

I may walk into yer gun store sometime this summer

 

but then again?

maybe knot

 

see you at EOT :lol:

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Maybe like when shooting a rack of 6 targets and the instructions are to shoot the two outer targets (far left and far right) and both of them fall with the shot on the left target, and the shooter then shoots the rightmost that is left standing (the one he was supposed to shoot already had fallen) and gets a 'P' for shooting the wrong target?????

I was there and saw it happen

 

 

In my limited experience in SASS the convention (around here) is to "shoot where the target WAS". I knocked a "16'x16" square off the stand at an annual and just continued the sweep when I came back. Isn't that pretty common? I got a pass because I didn't have to hit that target but nobody whined about it.

 

Sun in your eyes, shooting from deep shadows, wind in your face? Good grief folks this ain't T-ball...

 

Olen

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In my limited experience in SASS the convention (around here) is to "shoot where the target WAS". I knocked a "16'x16" square off the stand at an annual and just continued the sweep when I came back. Isn't that pretty common? I got a pass because I didn't have to hit that target but nobody whined about it.

 

Sun in your eyes, shooting from deep shadows, wind in your face? Good grief folks this ain't T-ball...

Olen

 

ditto

ditto

did I mention

DITTO

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The playing field has never been level. I suspect it never will be.

The best you can do is try to smooth out the bumps some.

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