Why?

[Shooting Bull]

I usually hate it when people ask, "Why is this rule......". It doesn't seem to serve a purpose other than to whine. But I'm gonna do it anyway.

 

Here's what happened. I was the TO. The stage had all guns staged on a table. Scenario called for five pistol shots, then four shotgun, then five more pistol shots. Stage instructions specifically said pistols could be retured to the table or leather after firing.

 

First gunfighter got up there, the beep went off and my mind went blank. I say that because he tried to pick up both pistols, like gunfighters usually do. I wouldn't let him saying it was a split pistol stage. He kept trying to pick up both and I kept telling him no. That little part in the rule book about gunfighters being able to shoot five, switch to another gun and then come back to their pistols for five more if a prop was available to set the pistols on was completely gone from my brain. Thankfully the gunfighther in question didn't give me TOO hard a time and all the other gunfighters were nice and understanding as they reminded me of the correct rule. (Yes, gunfighther in question was definitely offered a re-shoot).

 

Anyway, this all leads to my question, WHY? Why is it different if you set your pistols on a prop rather than returning them to leather? The hammers are down on an empty chamber either way so, there must be SOMETHING else that I'm missing.

[Wyatt]

The chance of holstering a cocked pistol........and thems the rules

 

Wyatt

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

It's one of those things ...

 

.... it's strongly felt, and rightly so, that the T.O. is not in a good position to observe the hammers of BOTH revolvers (which still have LIVE rounds in them) as they are reholstered. Thus the rule preventing GunFightererers from doing that.

 

As a sort of "concession" we can use the prop "thingy" for the split stages

 

 

 

 

................... of course, I could be wrong

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I usually hate it when people ask, "Why is this rule......". It doesn't seem to serve a purpose other than to whine. But I'm gonna do it anyway.

 

Here's what happened. I was the TO. The stage had all guns staged on a table. Scenario called for five pistol shots, then four shotgun, then five more pistol shots. Stage instructions specifically said pistols could be retured to the table or leather after firing.

 

First gunfighter got up there, the beep went off and my mind went blank. I say that because he tried to pick up both pistols, like gunfighters usually do. I wouldn't let him saying it was a split pistol stage. He kept trying to pick up both and I kept telling him no. That little part in the rule book about gunfighters being able to shoot five, switch to another gun and then come back to their pistols for five more if a prop was available to set the pistols on was completely gone from my brain. Thankfully the gunfighther in question didn't give me TOO hard a time and all the other gunfighters were nice and understanding as they reminded me of the correct rule. (Yes, gunfighther in question was definitely offered a re-shoot).

 

Anyway, this all leads to my question, WHY? Why is it different if you set your pistols on a prop rather than returning them to leather? The hammers are down on an empty chamber either way so, there must be SOMETHING else that I'm missing.

 

 

Philly, I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess.

Gunfighters either double cock or alternate cocking - on five shots and then stop, the possibility that a gunfighter may cock a hammer but not fire is pretty big.

If the gunfighter cocks the pistol for the next round and grounds the pistol (safely pointed downrange) - they still earn the penalty for doing so, but the firearm never sweeps their body as it would if they did the same thing and holstered. I believe it is simply one of those additional layers of safety we speak of so often.

[Stump Water]

Wyatt stated it correctly. Wallaby Jack could be wrong, but he's not. Creeker's out-on-a-limb guess is right.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

Wyatt stated it correctly. Wallaby Jack could be wrong, but he's not. Creeker's out-on-a-limb guess is right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... (thank you for your vote of confidence )

[BJT]

Just to add a dissenting opinion........

 

 

Any other shooter can holster a revolver with a loaded round. What is good for the goose appears to not be good for the gander or gunfighter in this case.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Shooting Bull]

Thanks for all the replies. They definitely make sense when explained that way.

 

Not sure about your dissenting opinion BJT, when is ANYBODY allowed to do that?

[BJT]

If I am a duelist and I draw and fire one round, I may holster and move to another position.

 

The gunfighter rule is an exception condition and applicable to no other category.

 

See RO1:

 

• Revolver(s)

Safe for movement in hand, while holstering, and safe to leave the shooter’s hand.

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber,

• Hammer fully down on an expended round (may not be originally staged in this

condition but may be restaged in this condition).

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Thanks for all the replies. They definitely make sense when explained that way.

 

Not sure about your dissenting opinion BJT, when is ANYBODY allowed to do that?

[BJT]

This can be seen as well from the penalty applied to the gunfighter, shooting out of category.

 

 

If I am a duelist and I draw and fire one round, I may holster and move to another position.

 

The gunfighter rule is an exception condition and applicable to no other category.

 

See RO1:

 

• Revolver(s)

Safe for movement in hand, while holstering, and safe to leave the shooter’s hand.

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber,

• Hammer fully down on an expended round (may not be originally staged in this

condition but may be restaged in this condition).

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hey BJT,

 

I brought that up months ago at the request of a GF. IIRC all of the GFs who posted on that thread were against holstering between pistol strings as they just knew they would, sometime or another, holster a cocked gun. Guess they would never stage a cocked gun as they don't seem to have a problem with staging between strings.

 

Regards,

 

AM

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I've holstered a cocked gun. Thankfully, never one that was loaded. It doesn't bother me that I can't holster a gun on split pistol stages.

[Black Tom]

Way to Hard for most RO's to keep a Eye on both pistols of a fast gunfighter, alot have a hard time just keeping up with the scenerio. Every other catagory all the Ro has to do is count to 5 on a split pistol. And watch 1 pistol back to holster. Its to easy to lose track. Any other catagory if shot right the pistols go back to holster empty. thats the only way I would want to see pistols going back to Holster on a regular basis.

BT

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Hey BJT,

 

I brought that up months ago at the request of a GF. IIRC all of the GFs who posted on that thread were against holstering between pistol strings as they just knew they would, sometime or another, holster a cocked gun. Guess they would never stage a cocked gun as they don't seem to have a problem with staging between strings.

 

Regards,

 

AM

 

Because staging a cocked/loaded pistil is much less dangerous than holstering one. When you holster you are pointing the gun at your leg.

 

Possum

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Its a good rule. GunFighters Rock!! But if ya see one shoot her off in tha holster well Tha music stops. First it throws mud on evabody, tha feller who pulled tha trigger when told your pistol is cocked craps in his pants, Tha RO looks around at evabody wid a wild look, tha whole posse gets real quiet.

 

Its a good rule, for me or anybody else its a good rule.

 

 

RRR

[Dubious Don #56333]

It ain't just a "mom" rule. Very possible for a GF to holster one or both revolvers cocked during the stage (for a split revolver stage for example) and ventilate his or her leg.

[royal barnes sass #5792]

I shoot gunfighter and most of the good ones I know prefer to shoot a split pistol stage as a double duelist. They say it's faster for them and safer. I don't know whether it's faster for me but it sure is safer.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

Here's what confuses me about this. When we are discussing loading table activities, some always holster after loading. They say a loaded gun is safer in the holster than on the table, where it could get knocked off or whatever. Others like to leave theirs on the table in case they have forgotten something in their cart.

 

So, I find it confusing that a cocked gun is less safe in the holster than on the table in this case.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I agree DD would be safest.

[Matthew Duncan]

Why?

 

Tell me why the ivy twines

 

Tell me why the sky so blue

 

Tell me why the stars do shine

 

And I will tell you just why I love you

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

Hi Folks,

 

Here's what confuses me about this. When we are discussing loading table activities, some always holster after loading. They say a loaded gun is safer in the holster than on the table, where it could get knocked off or whatever. Others like to leave theirs on the table in case they have forgotten something in their cart.

 

So, I find it confusing that a cocked gun is less safe in the holster than on the table in this case.

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS I agree DD would be safest.

 

 

 

Ma'am,

The two hi-lited segments in your posting do not refer to the SAME condition ; both cases have the revolver loaded, but the second also has the revolver cocked.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Yup, when ya holster a gun loaded with 5 at the LT, the hammer is down on an empty chamber. Perfectly safe. There is no way to have a negligent discharge even if the gun is dropped on it's muzzle or even on it's hammer.

 

Once ya cock it tho, ya bring a live round up to the firing position. The hammer is back and any bump to the hammer or touch of the light SA trigger will cause the gun to fire. Absolutely totally unsafe to holster in that condition.

[Kid Ziggy SASS 76870]

As I understand it the rules have gone back and forth a couple times on this issue.

 

My two cents:

 

Stage writers/set-up folks should normally have tables and props available at shooting stations so shooters can lay guns down if needed primarily due to malfunction. It is also nice for GFers to have a place where he/she can re-stage pistols on a split pistol stage.

 

PS: I see nothing unsafe about a shooter holstering a pistol with the hammer down on a spent round...we do it all the time. After all a live round left in the pistol is just a miss (nothing unsafe about it unless it is under the hammer).

 

I think this whole issue is another example of subsequent rules formed to prevent folks from breaking other rules. None of that is necessary IMHO ... we should gut the entire rule book and get it back to basics. For example, the 170 degree rules covers a lot of sins yet we have multiple rules also in place to prevent folks from breaking the 170 rule ... why? A prime example is not allowing shooters to retrieve and use dropped rounds. If a shooter can do it safely (not break any rules or endanger anyone) what is the problem?

[Marshal Max Henry]

I shoot gunfighter and most of the good ones I know prefer to shoot a split pistol stage as a double duelist. They say it's faster for them and safer. I don't know whether it's faster for me but it sure is safer.

I shoot GF and at The Last Stand we had a split stage and the TO let me shoot double duelist of which i was greatful mut moraly it bothered me. I hate to throw it in there face but is this not cheating? Why have the categorys if we can shoot what ever we want for what ever stage? Is there any other time you can do that. Lets say youare dragin a little in the placing and youwant to gain some quick time , just shoot traditional and blaze throughin 18 secs that will help. I am realy just curious because im new to the sport not trying to whine or stir anything.

 

Much Obliged Max Hery

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

I shoot GF and at The Last Stand we had a split stage and the TO let me shoot double duelist of which i was greatful mut moraly it bothered me. I hate to throw it in there face but is this not cheating? Why have the categorys if we can shoot what ever we want for what ever stage? Is there any other time you can do that. Lets say youare dragin a little in the placing and youwant to gain some quick time , just shoot traditional and blaze throughin 18 secs that will help. I am realy just curious because im new to the sport not trying to whine or stir anything.

 

Much Obliged Max Hery

 

 

A Gunfighterer shooting a stage in the Double Duelist format (for any reason) is not cheating, Gunfighterer is the only category that officially recognises Double Duelist as a shooting style in, and of, itself.

 

If you want to shoot in any style just put on some bling and enter as "B-Western".

 

 

All the shooting style rules are in the rule book, and some clarifications can be found in the R.O. materials.

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

If I am not mistaken CAS might be the only shooting sport that allows a handgun to be re-holstered after drawn and fired without the pistol being cleared by the TO/RO.

If we had to clear the revolver in CAS it would really interfere with the stages unless the pistols where both shot as the last firearm on a stage or the guns where grounded and then checked at the end of the stage... Exactly as done in Wild Bunch shooting (and IDPA, 3-Gun, and IPSC).

 

Holstering a single action revolver with a live round under a cocked hammer is probably one of the most dangerous mistakes a shooter could unintentionally do.

It's better to have the additional layer of safety for GF's. As stated before it is difficult for a TO/RO to watch two guns going into holsters at once.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Mad Max: nope, it ain't cheatin.

 

Matter of fact, a Traditional style shooter can shoot one handed if they prefer. They are not restricted to using both hands on the pistol.

 

 

..........Widder

[Iron Pony]

Max along with what Widowmaker has posted the folks shooting B western can shoot any style they want, with any powder they want and they can change that style from stage to stage.

 

To the original question from Slim, well I think the responses are showing a trend. As a BPGF I like the fact that the folks writing the stages are thinking about us gunfighters enough to provide a prop to stage guns on during split pistol stages and some times I will take em up on the option. Frequently these become double duelist stages for safety sake and to keep my brain a little less confused but the decision to do so it up to me.

 

I will climb up on one of my favorite soapboxes yet again and remind match directors/stage writers that if you MAKE me shoot double duelist you are MAKING me shoot out of my choosen (and paid for) category and thats WRONG! Dont know of any other shooting style this happens to so why us?

[Wyatt]

MMH,

 

I'm sure you are talking about stage 8 at TLS. First off the TO does not make the decision how a GF shoots the stage. The shooter and the course of fire does. You had the choice to shoot the first five rounds GF, move to the rifle with the pistols in a safe condition, place them on the table, shoot the rifle place it back on the table, pick up pistols in a safe condition move to the table where the shotgun was staged, shoot the second pistol sequence, holster and shoot your shotgun.

 

If you wanted to shoot that stage traditional you could. The penalty for shooting out of catagory the first time is only 10 sec.....your choice.

 

As Wallaby pointed out you can gear up for B Western and shoot a stage any way you want.

 

By the way I shot all ten stages GF because I wanted too and could.

 

Wyatt

[Stump Water]

MMH,

 

I'm sure you are talking about stage 8 at TLS. First off the TO does not make the decision how a GF shoots the stage. The shooter and the course of fire does. You had the choice to shoot the first five rounds GF, move to the rifle with the pistols in a safe condition, place them on the table, shoot the rifle place it back on the table, pick up pistols in a safe condition move to the table where the shotgun was staged, shoot the second pistol sequence, holster and shoot your shotgun.

 

If you wanted to shoot that stage traditional you could. The penalty for shooting out of catagory the first time is only 10 sec.....your choice.

 

As Wallaby pointed out you can gear up for B Western and shoot a stage any way you want.

 

By the way I shot all ten stages GF because I wanted too and could.

 

Wyatt

 

Furthermore, you can shoot the entire match double-duelist style... w/o penalty.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Mad Max: nope, it ain't cheatin.

 

Matter of fact, a Traditional style shooter can shoot one handed if they prefer. They are not restricted to using both hands on the pistol.

 

 

..........Widder

 

Yep.

 

Max.

As others have said. They did not LET you shoot it DD. You can do that at anytime you wish.

And as others have said. You can sign up GF'er and shoot the whole match as a DD. Perfectly fine.

Though I have never seen anyone do it. But pretty common to see them shoot DD on split pistol stages.

 

And as Widowmaker says. You can shoot DD in any aged base category also.

Know of one that signed up late for a big annual. Always signs up as Duelist and shoots DD.

But did not want to step on the other Duelist toes that had already signed up. So he signed up as

a Wrangler. Shoot the whole match DD. Won Overall also.

[Noz]

The stage directions state that the shooter may holster OR re-stage the pistols.

Why can't the gunfighter draw both guns, address the first pistol target with the correct number of rounds, re-stage with hammers down on empty chambers, Shot the long guns, pick up pistols and finish the course of fire.

If I was shooting gunfighter and had a TO tell me I could not do so, I would head immediately to the MD.

[Shooting Bull]

The stage directions state that the shooter may holster OR re-stage the pistols.

Why can't the gunfighter draw both guns, address the first pistol target with the correct number of rounds, re-stage with hammers down on empty chambers, Shot the long guns, pick up pistols and finish the course of fire.

If I was shooting gunfighter and had a TO tell me I could not do so, I would head immediately to the MD.

 

 

He could have done it that way if the brain dead RO (Me) hadn't prevented him from doing so. He didn't need to get the Match Director because when he and the other gunfighters helped me pull my head from my nether regions, he was given a re-shoot.

 

Lesson Learned: it ain't just the shooter who can have brain fade when the buzzer goes off.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I say fine the TO half his pay!

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...

PS: I see nothing unsafe about a shooter holstering a pistol with the hammer down on a spent round...we do it all the time. After all a live round left in the pistol is just a miss (nothing unsafe about it unless it is under the hammer).

 

I think this whole issue is another example of subsequent rules formed to prevent folks from breaking other rules. None of that is necessary IMHO ... we should gut the entire rule book and get it back to basics. For example, the 170 degree rules covers a lot of sins yet we have multiple rules also in place to prevent folks from breaking the 170 rule ... why? A prime example is not allowing shooters to retrieve and use dropped rounds. If a shooter can do it safely (not break any rules or endanger anyone) what is the problem?