What does repeat mean?

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

yeah... a kinder, gentler gunfighter.... right.

 

and we're not talking about a newbie getting all clever with the stages are we?

 

Please.... your post is the definition of righteous indignation..as in self-righteous.

 

"AY-dios" La Beouf, True Grit

 

Brother, I would posse with you anytime, anywhere.

If you want to posse with me at Winter Range - you are welcome to do so.

We can always use another timer operator.

NO way Creeker-dude... I wouldn't miss the puuuuure honor of watching you sweat my sensibilities for all the gunpowder in China.

[BJT]

I been getting the feeling that there are those out there that read the shampoo container where it says "lather, rinse, repeat" and the poor fellers feel guilty if they lather front to back the first time and back to front the second. Some folks make it all too complicated.

 

Cheers All,

BJT

[Anvil Al #59168]

Ya know. I normally agree with Creeker on most things.

And not saying that I disagree with him here.

BUT.

Think it was just a month ago we was on here with another thread. About

how a stage was written and/or shoot with the same parties questioning the stage writing.

But at least is sounds like he asked for clarification before he shoot it.

 

So just a note to self. If Creeker is coming to shoot. Let someone else write the stages.

 

 

There really is alot of thought and skill goes into good stage writing.

And it takes some time and mess ups to get it down.

So hats off to ya Philly Slim for stepping up and giving it a whirl. Sure you will have

it down Creeker proof very soon. (that's a joke. A joke I say)

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Come on you guys - just saying "Repeat" is not clear.

 

It can mean 2 things...admit that...then realize that a little more description solves the problem.

 

Repeat instructions for 1st pistol

 

or

 

Repeat 1st pistol sequence

There...see how easy this can be?

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside

 

Jefro

[Marshal J. D. Fender SASS# 78000]

I would take it to mean repeat firing sequence

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Think it was just a month ago we was on here with another thread. About

how a stage was written and/or shoot with the same parties questioning the stage writing.

So just a note to self. If Creeker is coming to shoot. Let someone else write the stages.

So hats off to ya Philly Slim for stepping up and giving it a whirl. Sure you will have

it down Creeker proof very soon. (that's a joke. A joke I say)

 

Judging from the responses to this thread - there are more than just me that can read the word repeat and question to what action that word is attached.

 

Of course - I asked Philly what he meant BEFORE I shot the stage.

But even with that, there were some that wanted to assign the penalty because they understood the meaning differently than I.

 

There was advantage to shooting it the way I did (for a Gunfighter). That's why I wanted to shoot it that way. I was also the only Gunfighter at the match, so I was competing against only myself.

But at a big match - the word repeat....

 

Posse one - Gunfighter shoots it one way - gains a 1/4 second over shooting it the other way.

Posse two - Gunfighter shoots it the exact same way - gains 1/2 second, but incurs a 10 second "P".

Posse three - Gunfighter wants to shoot it the faster way - but is denied before the stage begins. Results in a 1/2 second deficit.

 

At awards the gunfighter rankings come down to the scoring differences from this stage.

Now honestly, I would be proud as all get out, at a 3rd in category at WR - But seriously torqued when I figured out someones questionable understanding of repeat cost me 1st.

(obviously the above is an example - not factual. I hold no illusions about my possible category placement at WR)

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

It is clear that different people, different clubs perhaps, hold different meanings for the simple word repeat. At least I thought it was simple. As a stage writer I've always considered it a command to repeat the previous instruction. BJT gave a good example that I was thinking of myself... knockdowns.

 

I think we can agree that the single word repeat isn't a good idea because of the differences of opinion.

 

I tried to explain why I hold that repeat means to repeat the instruction, not the order. But after reading the thread again I don't get a clear idea of why this interpretation is wrong. Or more specifically, what is the reason (other than that is what your local club does) that the single word "repeat" means repeat the shooting order.

 

I don't see this as a case of doing something just because it doesn't say you can't. To me the word repeat means that the only thing you can do is repeat the instruction preceding the command repeat.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Judging from the responses to this thread - there are more than just me that can read the word repeat and question to what action that word is attached.

 

Of course - I asked Philly what he meant BEFORE I shot the stage.

But even with that, there were some that wanted to assign the penalty because they understood the meaning differently than I.

 

There was advantage to shooting it the way I did (for a Gunfighter). That's why I wanted to shoot it that way. I was also the only Gunfighter at the match, so I was competing against only myself.

But at a big match - the word repeat....

 

Posse one - Gunfighter shoots it one way - gains a 1/4 second over shooting it the other way.

Posse two - Gunfighter shoots it the exact same way - gains 1/2 second, but incurs a 10 second "P".

Posse three - Gunfighter wants to shoot it the faster way - but is denied before the stage begins. Results in a 1/2 second deficit.

 

At awards the gunfighter rankings come down to the scoring differences from this stage.

Now honestly, I would be proud as all get out, at a 3rd in category at WR - But seriously torqued when I figured out someones questionable understanding of repeat cost me 1st.

(obviously the above is an example - not factual. I hold no illusions about my possible category placement at WR)

 

I am not disagreeing with ya.

Just giving you a hard time about giving them a hard time.

As with the stage instructions of.

Outside, Outside, Inside, Inside, Middle. Repeat.

Depending on if moving left or right after. But lets say right.

I would have shoot it.

Right hand first. 5, 1, 2, 4, 3 then left hand 1, 5, 4, 2, 3.

As I would have just repeated the instructions for last 5 shots.

That is after checking to see what they meant by repeat.

 

But heck. I bet next time he writes stages. He will correct it. So it is all good.

[Charlie Whiskers]

Stage has 10 revolver knockdowns

 

Instructions say:

 

With first revolver, engage 5 knockdowns.

 

With second revolver, repeat.

 

How many of you yahoos gonna shoot at the targets you already knocked down?

 

You all crack me up, you really do.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

I've written some stages for my club on occassion.When I do,I "try" to keep instructions as clear as possible.So this example is one where repeat is not valid wording.In this senerio,the stage writer would have to say draw 2nd pistol and shoot the 5 remaining knockdowns.And personally when it's being read,I ask if there's any questions,so the Spirit of the game is a moot point.I'd rather have to read and walk through a senerio 2 or 3 times to make sure everyone knows how it's to be shot rather than have 1 or 2 shooters get a P because I didn't write or explain it clear enough.And BTW,being from the USA,I count left to right,therefore,target 1 is on the left when I write a stage.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

repeat to me means the general directions (O,O,I,I,M) unless stage writer says repeat sequence or repeat starting on same end. As most have said, stage writer better say what he means. Another point about order in this particular illustration of OP is if the writer has intentions of shooter going from one side to other (1,5,2,4,3), he better say so or I will chose to shot stage as A Al preferring to jump directly to closest inside target.

 

As I remember OP instructions, o,o,i,i,m starting on either end then repeat with second five, IMO this could go several ways:

 

1,5,2,4,3--1,5,2,4,3 or 1,5,4,2,3--1,5,4,2,3 or

5,1,2,4,3--1,5,4,2,3 or combination of alternating sides with one gun on inside targets and not with second gun 5,1,2,4,3--1,5,2,4,3.

 

To me when specifics are not given, it is as BJT, Phantom, Doc, Goody, and others suggests, benefit goes to shooter and options are in his court as to how HE wants to shoot it. Just a couple of added words can keep all shooters on exact same sequence other than what end to start on if not written. If PM I sure want to ask when there is a walk through. Although I like the ability to choose, I do find it can be challenging to counters as to knowing which way each shooter engaging stage...gunfighters and double duelist may engage completely different from some other categories.

 

anyway, good post for thinking and chatting.

 

Happy New Year.

 

bb

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I've found around here anyway if instructions say "repeat" while scenario is read folks ask,what is meant by repeat ? and if your the posse marshal you had better of asked the MD or otherwise your gonna be chasing him down to find out.

 

 

We have two clubs 15 minutes apart one club repeat means repeat instructions other club means repeat what you did,so I found it easier just to spell it out hopefully this thread will clue in others as well.

 

I can't believe this has gone 3 pages.LOL

 

 

 

AO

[Anvil Al #59168]

If ya want them the same.

Just tell me.

You know. Something like.

Two identical outside in sweeps.

[BJT]

I've written some stages for my club on occassion.When I do,I "try" to keep instructions as clear as possible.So this example is one where repeat is not valid wording.In this senerio,the stage writer would have to say draw 2nd pistol and shoot the 5 remaining knockdowns.And personally when it's being read,I ask if there's any questions,so the Spirit of the game is a moot point.I'd rather have to read and walk through a senerio 2 or 3 times to make sure everyone knows how it's to be shot rather than have 1 or 2 shooters get a P because I didn't write or explain it clear enough.And BTW,being from the USA,I count left to right,therefore,target 1 is on the left when I write a stage.

 

 

Absolutely INCORRECT. The stage writer clear intended for any missed knockdowns to be available for the second revolver..........

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Come on you guys - just saying "Repeat" is not clear.

 

It can mean 2 things...admit that...then realize that a little more description solves the problem.

 

Repeat instructions for 1st pistol

 

or

 

Repeat 1st pistol sequence

There...see how easy this can be?

 

Hi Phantom,

 

Wouldn't it be better to say repeat first five shot sequence. Just in case the shooter was a GF?

 

Sorry, I couldn't help myself...

 

 

Allie Mo

[Goody, SASS #26190]

I believe that at the very least this thread shows there are two schools of thought, along with some middle ground that is being covered. Neither is right everywhere you go, so why not write exactly what you intend for the shooter to do? Why leave anything out? Just because I think I am right, I could run up against someone such as Brother King who feels just as strongly in the opposing direction. Again, who's right?

 

Oh yea, Mr Whiskers, "And BTW,being from the USA,I count left to right,therefore,target 1 is on the left when I write a stage."

 

I have seen it written sweep the targets 1 thru 5 twice, starting on the right. Now what am I to do?

[Blastmaster]

Probably 99.9% of the stage writers do not read the wire and do not learn of all this great wisdom of what a stage writer should consider to stop up all the different ways to lawyer up a stage. Thank goodness for that.

 

I suppose even a PhD of English couldn't write a stage description that was SASS lawyer proof either. Most likely he would be using to big a words and that would muddy up the water for those type to understand and thus, they would shoot it however they felt like it and then ask for benifit of the doubt because big words were being used.

 

Thank goodness 2010 is about over with. Perhaps 2011 will be better.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

Ah gots ta agrees wicha Blastermaster. Dem big words kin be a problemo. Ah'm kinda hopin' in 2011 we gits to figger out the meanin' of the words and, then, and or in the stage prescriptions. But, until we know how to shoot a stage that calls for "shoot them targets, repeat" ah don't think we're ready for the big words.

[Charlie Whiskers]

Absolutely INCORRECT. The stage writer clear intended for any missed knockdowns to be available for the second revolver..........

 

 

Well,I re-read what was there and don't see anywhere in the way it was written to pick up missed targets with the 2nd pistol.All it said was 10 knockdowns,shoot the 1st 5 with the 1st pistol then repeat with 2nd.As was said before,are you going to shoot the 2nd pistol where they "were"?It should have been wriiten to allow that if that was the intent.Either way IF there were misses with the 1st pistol and the 2nd was used to pick up those misses,there's gonna be misses for targets left standing after both pistols have been shot.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Well,I re-read what was there and don't see anywhere in the way it was written to pick up missed targets with the 2nd pistol.All it said was 10 knockdowns,shoot the 1st 5 with the 1st pistol then repeat with 2nd.As was said before,are you going to shoot the 2nd pistol where they "were"?It should have been wriiten to allow that if that was the intent.Either way IF there were misses with the 1st pistol and the 2nd was used to pick up those misses,there's gonna be misses for targets left standing after both pistols have been shot.

 

Misses aren't the issue...issue is whether it would be a "P".

 

[Charlie Whiskers]

Misses aren't the issue...issue is whether it would be a "P".

 

 

 

Could be Mr Phantom,could be.Wasn't thinking along that line,he said it was intended to pick up misses.

[Blastmaster]

Stage has 10 revolver knockdowns

 

Instructions say:

 

With first revolver, engage 5 knockdowns.

 

With second revolver, repeat.

 

How many of you yahoos gonna shoot at the targets you already knocked down?

 

You all crack me up, you really do.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

Easy, when your hypothecial stage with your hypothecial scenerio, with you hypothecial KD's occuring, and they hypothecially bounce back up, you can shoot at them again.

 

Now, define knocked down?

 

Now again, you shoot it anyway you want to, I (as the TO) will poll the counters for their assesment of bonus/penalties and make a determination of the bonus/penalties and will then inform the score keep of the time and any other additions/subtractions . You can either accept the score or you can proceed with in the SASS process of protesting the score to an upper official of the match. Win, loose or draw, we will be pards and go back to the posse to finish the match.

 

Wouldn't it just be simpler to ask before shooting and going through all that hassle?

 

 

Blastmaster

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Wouldn't it just be simpler to ask before shooting and going through all that hassle?

 

Simpler? Yes.

More fun? No.

 

You will never get three pages on the wire out of

"I asked permission to do something at a match and the TO said 'Ok'"

[Blastmaster]

Simpler? Yes.

More fun? No.

 

You will never get three pages on the wire out of

"I asked permission to do something at a match and the TO said 'Ok'"

 

 

 

I wish you would stay on topic. Now that racked up the pages and number of responses.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

There are 10 pistol knockdowns and I shoot my first revolver and repeat... do I now have 5 misses or do I use a little common sense and know what the stage writer meant Cuz on the previous stage out,out,inner,inner,middle I had no clue what the stage writer meant

 

If ya monitor the Wire for a couple days someone will have a post complaining that the stage writers are too specific and don't allow any flexibility... Wonder how come

 

Perhaps I was a little tuff in my earlier example... I hand you two $100 dollar bills would you like me to repeat or it doesn't matter as long as I hand you something? Where did I put those road apples?

 

Unfortunately for the clever thinker types... I have played this game just long enuff to clarify most of the "different" methods as soon as the stage is read

 

I just shampooed, lathered, rinsed and repeated... It didn't say to stop so I am still doing it in a COLD shower! This was the stage the manufacturer wrote so that I would use more product and has nothin to do with shooting

 

If ya have a miss with your first gun then hit all five with your second... do ya get a P for not repeating... Huh?

 

For the pettyfoggin lawyer types when the stage says shoot 5 of the 10 knockdowns with your first pistol and repeat... do you run to the truck and grab your pistols, leave your revolvers on the seat and quickly return to shoot the second pistol at the 5 that are already down

 

What does 4+ mean really... 4 plus two tomatoes? a couple rocks? The extra time it took to run down and kick the targets over? another shotgun? Hmmmmm? It didn't say...

 

Happy Wednesday!!

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

I've found around here anyway if instructions say "repeat" while scenario is read folks ask,what is meant by repeat ? and if your the posse marshal you had better of asked the MD or otherwise your gonna be chasing him down to find out.

(snip)

 

 

This is also what I've found...

I'm the one that usually ask "What do you mean by repeat?"

It's good to know as a shooter and as a spotter to give correct calls...

 

Rance

Thinkin' this is a good answer??

[BJT]

I should not have to ask, because if I am unsure then the odds that the TO is unsure are far too high. The same with the

chance he will make a ruling without MD input or some other TO at the match will.

 

Clear stage writing and good walkthroughs are very important. So is giving benefit of the doubt to the shooter. If the stage description is vague then the shooter has all the freedom the vagueness allows. Any other approach is far too arbitrary and open to caprisiousness. I would not have fun participating with either.

 

 

Easy, when your hypothecial stage with your hypothecial scenerio, with you hypothecial KD's occuring, and they hypothecially bounce back up, you can shoot at them again.

 

Now, define knocked down?

 

Now again, you shoot it anyway you want to, I (as the TO) will poll the counters for their assesment of bonus/penalties and make a determination of the bonus/penalties and will then inform the score keep of the time and any other additions/subtractions . You can either accept the score or you can proceed with in the SASS process of protesting the score to an upper official of the match. Win, loose or draw, we will be pards and go back to the posse to finish the match.

 

Wouldn't it just be simpler to ask before shooting and going through all that hassle?

 

 

Blastmaster

[Shooting Bull]

Just as a note of information if anyone is interested; there were two gunfighters at the match that day, Creeker and a lady GF. I wasn't running the timer when the lady GF shot so didn't realize she'd been given a P for repeating the instructions instead of the first sequence.

 

When it came Creeker's turn to shoot he did ask what I meant by repeat and that it could be interpreted two different ways. Upon realizing this I told him what I meant but, since I hadn't made myself clear he should go ahead and repeat the instructions. After that decision, it was pointed out that the lady GF had been given a P for that very same thing so we removed the P from her time.

 

Again, lesson learned for me, always go back and look at the stages from the shooter's point of view. That includes Duelists, Gunfighters and those limp wristed sissies.

[BIG TIM]

Pete and repeat was sitting on a fence Pete fell off who was left.........

 

Sorry could not help myself!!!!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Boy, revisited this thread after a few days and found some of you seem to want to give a spirit of the game penalty for asking a question about the stage description so the shooter understands what the writer really meant. For all those that feel that way please post which clubs you shoot with so we can all avoid them. Sure wouldn't want to accidentally run into you as a Posse Marshal. Then I read a post about Winter Range. Based on past evidence, I know those folks have the sense to clean up any language in stage instructions so we all understand them long before the match.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Rebel that I am, I lather and rinse but I never repeat.

 

Dad would only wash his hair oncet a week. Didn't wanta wear out his hairs. Hair awl would do the rest of the time.

 

Gimme a P. Go ahead. That's why I always carry a $50 yankee greenback to every shoot.

[Taquila Tab, Sass #25048]

I been getting the feeling that there are those out there that read the shampoo container where it says "lather, rinse, repeat" and the poor fellers feel guilty if they lather front to back the first time and back to front the second. Some folks make it all too complicated.

 

Cheers All,

BJT

I'd venture to say those that read the instructions on the shampoo bottle don't read the instructions again. Rather, they repeat the ACTION of lathering and rinsing.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Isn't it funny how an apparent one-word instruction can be confusing?

 

Repeat - do the same thing again.

 

The "problem" is that the original allows more than one thing. So the question is "Repeat what?"

 

So, although around here, they generally interpret it to mean shot it as you did the first five, there really needs to be just a little more added to avoid confusion.

 

It reminds me what we were getting briefed about general guidelines for testifying in court. I went in thinking that simple answers of "yes" and "no" would be the best. But they clarified that.

Question: "Do you brush your teeth every morning?"

If you answer "yes," they follow up with, "every day?" "You have never missed?", etc.

 

So as an engineer, they loved my answers of, "it depends," "generally, but the result varies depending on conditions," etc.

 

As Billy Graham said in World On Fire, "The ability to communicate is highly over estimated, especially by the more learned."

[Nashville Frank, SASS # 49204]

Uhhm. So if I shoot the first five pistolrounds in a wrong order, and earn a P, I have to shoot the next five in exactly same wrong order?? Good thing we only get one P pr stage..

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Uhhm. So if I shoot the first five pistolrounds in a wrong order, and earn a P, I have to shoot the next five in exactly same wrong order?? Good thing we only get one P pr stage..

 

 

Careful there Nashville Frank.... your tryin' to use logic..

A few responses back they were talkin' of throwin' in a Spirit of the Game Penalty...So....

You might get a P fer shootin' em' in the wrong order first time thru

and then throw in a Spirit of Game penalty for not following your first order..

 

Crazy ol' world when cowboys start thinkin' ain't it??

 

Rance

Thinkin' I'll stop thinkin' anymore on this one