What does repeat mean?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Words have various meanings and they can mean or refer to different things depending on the readers pacing or the listeners understanding.

 

Five targets in a row left to right.

Stage instructions say

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

What does this mean to you?

Does it mean repeat the SEQUENCE that you have engaged the targets in?

i.e. if you engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 1st five rounds

then you MUST engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 2nd five rounds - repeating the exact same sequence.

 

Or does it mean repeat the stage INSTRUCTION?

You could engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with your 1st five rounds and by repeating the stage instructions, you could then engage T5 - T1 - T4 - T2 - T3 with your 2nd five rounds.

Or (with the 2nd five rounds) any method that engages the five targets 1x each - Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle

 

Which meaning of repeat do you subscribe to and why?

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

To me it would mean to duplicate your first sequence. At the clubs I shoot at, the instructions are usually very clear that you may choose to start from either side, but, you must shoot the second string the same as the first.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Means the Stage Writer didn't want to restate the instructions...otherwise I would expect:

 

Repeat - using same shooting sequence as first pistol.

 

Somethin like that...

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

To me it would mean to duplicate your first sequence. At the clubs I shoot at, the instructions are usually very clear that you may choose to start from either side, but, you must shoot the second string the same as the first.

 

In the absence of those "Very clear" instructions - does repeat still mean the same thing?

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

At the clubs I shoot at I would make the assumption that is what is implied. Being used to that it would now be automatic wherever I would shoot.

Guess I'm kinda programmed now.

I'm still a fairly green shooter though, trying hard not to make mistakes.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

When written like that I take to mean I can start on either end with each 5 shot string. Stage instructions should state repeat the second string exactly like you did the first if that's what they intend.IMHO

 

Jefro

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

It all depends on your location, in some areas, it means do it the way you shot it the first time, other areas it means do what the instructions said again, in other words, you can go either direction the second time.

 

Myself I say, repeat the instructions, ie, shoot it either way if the stage instructions did not specifically said you had to shoot it the exact same way the second time.

 

That and a buck may buy u a small coffee,

 

Cheyenne

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

When written like that I take to mean I can start on either end with each 5 shot string. Stage instructions should state repeat the second string exactly like you did the first if that's what they intend.IMHO

 

Jefro

+1 im with Jefro -Poor stage writing

[Doc Shapiro]

I always ask. Here's an example...

 

Give: 5 targets. Instruction: "Sweep the pistol targets starting from either end, repeat with 2nd pistol"

 

2 options for repeat:

1. Does it mean to do what you did with the first 5 shots for the second? As in, if I started on the left with the first 5, I must start on the left with the 2nd 5?

2. Does it mean to just sweep again starting on either end for the 2nd 5?

 

Which is it? I ask for clarification.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Since it does seem to be interpreted differently in different parts of the country, I always ask if I'm at a match I haven't shot before.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I'm with Jefro on this one.

 

I also adhere to Doc Shapiro's comment in that I always ask just to be sure of the 'intent'.

 

I think this topic was discussed very well on the Wire about a year ago and that's what makes me believe Jefro has it correct. I don't have proof but something in the back of my mind is telling me that I started a thread on it because I had been given different instructions at a match and wanted to make sure of how this should be interpretted.

 

And as CC stated, different clubs do it different.

 

EDIT: Hey Creeker, let me give one more thought about this that would help support Jefro's answer.

What if the same stage instructions said: 'with first 5 pistol shots, ingage (or shoot) middle, inside,inside,outside,outside and repeat'. All you're instructed to do is repeat Middle, Inside, Inside, Outside, Outside. Not the exact SAME order.

 

 

..........Widder

[Rio Brazos Kid]

Come on guys, you know what the meaning if IS, IS.

 

RBK

[Wild Ben Raymond, SASS 23108,]

Words have various meanings and they can mean or refer to different things depending on the readers pacing or the listeners understanding.

 

Five targets in a row left to right.

Stage instructions say

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

What does this mean to you?

Does it mean repeat the SEQUENCE that you have engaged the targets in?

i.e. if you engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 1st five rounds

then you MUST engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 2nd five rounds - repeating the exact same sequence.

 

Or does it mean repeat the stage INSTRUCTION?

You could engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with your 1st five rounds and by repeating the stage instructions, you could then engage T5 - T1 - T4 - T2 - T3 with your 2nd five rounds.

Or (with the 2nd five rounds) any method that engages the five targets 1x each - Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle

 

Which meaning of repeat do you subscribe to and why?

I won't try and explain what the author intended, but this is an example of why our CAS club holds a walk through before the shoot with all the posse leaders and the stage writer. So if a situation like this comes up, and it can be clairified. WBR

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Since different clubs, different Posse Marshals, different ROs, etc. seem to look at "repeat" differently I always ask. Interesting in that sometimes it gets into a long discussion to get clarification. Words like behind (does it mean one foot or two behind a prop), shoot targets S1 though S5 (does it mean in that order or not), etc. always raise explanation issues. Always ask if unclear. Even when you do, sometimes after the match you find different posses have done it differently.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

Definitely on a range by range basis. That being said I'd estimate that 70%+ of the places I shoot interpret it as meaning a repeat of the INSTRUCTIONS not of the first action. But, only the stagewriter knows for sure. I recommend avoiding the use of the word.

[ShadowCatcher]

Words have various meanings and they can mean or refer to different things depending on the readers pacing or the listeners understanding.

 

Five targets in a row left to right.

Stage instructions say

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

What does this mean to you?

Does it mean repeat the SEQUENCE that you have engaged the targets in?

i.e. if you engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 1st five rounds

then you MUST engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 2nd five rounds - repeating the exact same sequence.

 

Or does it mean repeat the stage INSTRUCTION?

You could engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with your 1st five rounds and by repeating the stage instructions, you could then engage T5 - T1 - T4 - T2 - T3 with your 2nd five rounds.

Or (with the 2nd five rounds) any method that engages the five targets 1x each - Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle

 

Which meaning of repeat do you subscribe to and why?

 

It ought to mean what it says . . .

 

Logically the sequence is: "Open-Bracket" Out, Out, In, In, Middle "Close-bracket" started from either end at shooters discretion.

Repeat means do another sequence as previously described.

 

If you mean something more exacting then you should state "Repeat the previous sequence".

 

The string : "Open-Bracket" shoot P1 - P5 starting from either end "Close Bracket" and then repeat, does permit a

double tap on the fifth/sixth target unless one includes the condition "No Double Taps".

 

That's my view anyway - and I could be wrong . . . .

 

Shadow Catcher

[Charlie Whiskers]

I would and do take it to mean do what you did with the 1st 5 shots.Since it didn't say to start from the left for the 1st 5 then right for the 2nd 5 or vice versa,I take it for face value to mean repeat what you did with the 1st 5 shots.Besides,what's the difference since there's no advantage to shooting the 2nd 5 from the other end especially if it's pistols.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Whiskey Hayes writes the stages for our club and when he writes a stage similar to this he says "Repeat Instructions".

That one extra word helps to clarify everything.

 

Randy

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I would and do take it to mean do what you did with the 1st 5 shots.Since it didn't say to start from the left for the 1st 5 then right for the 2nd 5 or vice versa,I take it for face value to mean repeat what you did with the 1st 5 shots.Besides,what's the difference since there's no advantage to shooting the 2nd 5 from the other end especially if it's pistols.

 

 

Au contraire Mr. Whiskers.

From a supported shooters perspective - as the shooter has to change pistols, then you are right, no real difference of note.

 

From a Gunfighters perspective.

 

Left Pistol - Left outside target

Right Pistol - Right outside target

Left P - Left inside target

Right P - Right inside target

Left P - Middle target

 

If I have to repeat sequence - my next shot is Right Pistol - far LEFT target (either an ugly crossover or change leads)

If I repeat instructions

Next shot is Right P - RIGHT outside target

No pistol crossover - no lead change - it makes a difference.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

C'mon guys!!

 

Repeat means repeat and everyone knows it!!

 

In the example P1,P5,P2,P4,P3 there is no real advantage in going to P5 from P3 for the second sweep so its a wash as far as time (except BPGF )... but repeat still means repeat!!

 

What about the following scenario:

 

Pete and Repeat go for a boat ride, Pete fell out... who was left? Repeat

 

Pete and Repeat go for a boat ride, Pete fell out... who was left? Repeat

 

Pete and Repeat go for a boat ride, Pete fell out... who was left? Repeat

 

How about:

 

Pete and Repeat go for a boat ride, Repeat fell out... who was left? Pete

 

This clearly shows that if the stage writer says "Pete", then you can do the second sweep in a different order

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I would and do take it to mean do what you did with the 1st 5 shots.Since it didn't say to start from the left for the 1st 5 then right for the 2nd 5 or vice versa,I take it for face value to mean repeat what you did with the 1st 5 shots.Besides,what's the difference since there's no advantage to shooting the 2nd 5 from the other end especially if it's pistols.

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each. 1st 5 shots

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each. 2nd 5 shots

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle.

 

Jefro

[Curly Red Ryder]

Just ask the Range Master when making the Safety inspection before the Match!

 

In such a case, Posse Marshals have to ask to the RM and the RM has to explain the meaning of "repeat" to give consistency for all the posses.

[Nashville Frank, SASS # 49204]

All the questions asked on a stage, like them above, is the main reason why I use "same procedure" instead of "repeat". Less questions.

[COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921]

At the clubs I shoot at it means shoot it exactly the same, if you don't want a P.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

This, along with some other vague instructions, always are cause for lively banter at my home club. As has been noted, different people interpret it differently. Things like:

 

"Move to rifle and engage same as pistol". To me that means same instructions. If no spoecific end to start pistol on was given , then repeat the instructions for the pistol.

 

Engage Pistol targets in a sweep 1,2,3,4,5, then repeat. This is open for a lot of discussion. The repeat part that is being talked about here. But what if there is no diagram showing target numbering. Some say that this being the good ol US of A, we always assume that number one is on the left. I say bull puckey's, number one is the first one I shoot. If the stage writer wants me to start on the left he/she should say so.

 

It all boils down to stage writing. If the author didn't care to write it down, then it usually matters very little in the overall scheme of target engagement.

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

Adding in "No double tap" or "Each sweep must start from the same target" or "Each sweep may be from either direction" solves the confusion issue.

 

The fewer times the RO has to ask the MD or stage writer to clarify, the better the stage writing job. We don't want stage directions the length of the health care bill but an extra sentence or sometime two can avoid confusion, hard feelings and delays in the match. I always specify the sweep/target order/option, even if it is a "repeat" for each gun and each type of gun.

 

I've seen "repeat" used differently at various matches. The stage writer should not leave it to participants, RO's and the MD to divinely intuit his or her intention. I'm not slamming stage writers (I am one and I've taken some hard knocks to learn the pitfalls) but this is an example of an easy thing to do to make the day go better for everyone.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Words have various meanings and they can mean or refer to different things depending on the readers pacing or the listeners understanding.

 

Five targets in a row left to right.

Stage instructions say

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

What does this mean to you?

Does it mean repeat the SEQUENCE that you have engaged the targets in?

i.e. if you engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 1st five rounds

then you MUST engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 2nd five rounds - repeating the exact same sequence.

 

Or does it mean repeat the stage INSTRUCTION?

You could engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with your 1st five rounds and by repeating the stage instructions, you could then engage T5 - T1 - T4 - T2 - T3 with your 2nd five rounds.

Or (with the 2nd five rounds) any method that engages the five targets 1x each - Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle

 

Which meaning of repeat do you subscribe to and why?

 

 

[b]Repeat means just that [/b]UNLESS the stage writer clarifies his instructions differently which results in a lecture from yours truly on the word repeat.

 

When writing stages you HAVE to look at them critically from the shooters perspective, how each phrase can be interpeted and how different styles of shooters (gunfighters as above) will want to take advantage whenever they can. For example, in the above instructions a gunfighter would shoot the first sweep from the left, the second from the right (or vice-versa) so he (or she) minimizes the crossovers and eliminates the need to change leads and shoot the last two shots from one revolver. IE; engaging the above targets outside- outside starting on the left; left, right, left, right, left second sweep left, right, left, right, right. OR, starting the second sweep on the left target with the right revolver first. (you have to swing very wide to engage opposite targets and this is s-l-o-w!) See the issue here?

 

While there IS NO REASON not to have "repeats" (its something good to practice) you have to be clear in your stage instructions. What happens when stage instructions aren't clear? At the end of the match you find out some posse's shot it as exact same order both times, others shot it as only repeating the main sequence. See the problem with that? And when shooters that shoot at a club who's rangemaster likes the word repeat but TO HIM that means same main sequence NOT exact same target order, then they shoot at a club or match where repeat means repeat well, see the problem with that?

 

Please be clear when writing your stages. Instead of "repeat" say "With revolver(s) engage P1 thru P5 outside-outside-inside-inside-middle twice for ten rounds."

OR

With revolver(s) sweep P1 thru P5 twice with one round each starting on either end (no double taps)...

 

With revolver(s) engage P1, P2 and P3 with two 1-3-1 sweeps starting on either end...

 

With revolver(s) engage P1 thru P3 with a continuous Nevada sweep starting on either end....

 

With revolver(s) engage pistol targets in this order- P1, P1, P2, P2, P3, P3, P2, P2, P1, P1...

 

Please note that there is no NEED to specify with first revolver/ with second revolver because we STILL have some people who don't understand this when it comes to GUNFIGHTERS. "First pistol means FIRST FIVE SHOTS, not the left/right gun. (unless the stage SPECIFIES shooting DUELIST)

 

Side note:

I know one stage writer that says "Position one" means if you're close enough to grab your rifle/shotgun/revolver on the table, you're at POS 1. I know another that "position one" means at least one foot by the table leg, fence post, etc and yet another that says that means BOTH FEETS behind the prop. Be exact, be clear and ALWAYS anticipate how shooters will game your stages! You can have some fun with this too. Write a stage that does not specify a clear position, say "Position two is anywhere between #1 and #3. Set the targets, knowing that a lot of shooters will want to take a step just clear of #1 and shoot OR, almost to #3 and shoot from there BUT, the deviously Dubious range dude has set the targets so the only way to get the BEST shooting angles is from exactly in the middle of the two positions. Anywhere else there are some "MINOR" overlaps of targets or just perhaps one of them shotgun targets is now obscured by another or a prop. Nothing drastic, just a slight difference to make the shooter THINK and, let them work the stage to their advantage. (or not) MOST IMPORTANTLY, make sure however you do it is FUN (and not just messing with the shooters)

[Blastmaster]

The defininition of repeat is listed below.

 

#5 & # 12 pretty much defines it for me in the contents of the OP question.

 

To the OP, do you see a definition below that suits you better?

 

 

 

 

 

re·peat   /rɪˈpit/ Show Spelled

[ri-peet] Show IPA

 

–verb (used with object)

1. to say or utter again (something already said): to repeat a word for emphasis.

2. to say or utter in reproducing the words, inflections, etc., of another: to repeat a sentence after the teacher.

3. to reproduce (utterances, sounds, etc.) in the manner of an echo, a phonograph, or the like.

4. to tell (something heard) to another or others.

5. to do, make, or perform again: to repeat an action.

6. to go through or undergo again: to repeat an experience.

–verb (used without object)

7. to do or say something again.

8. to cause a slight regurgitation: The onions I ate are repeating on me.

9. to vote illegally by casting more than one vote in the same election.

–noun

10. the act of repeating.

11. something repeated; repetition.

12. a duplicate or reproduction of something.

13. a decorative pattern repeated, usually by printing, on a textile or the like.

14. Music .

a. a passage to be repeated.

b. a sign, as a vertical arrangement of dots, calling for the repetition of a passage.

15. a radio or television program that has been broadcast at least once before.

[Doc Shapiro]

Adding in "No double tap" or "Each sweep must start from the same target" or "Each sweep may be from either direction" solves the confusion issue.

 

<snip>

 

The "no double tap" doesn't help. I've been to clubs where they consider the 5th and 6th pistol shots on the same target to NOT be a double tap as there is a gun transition in between.

 

Best to just spell out the sequence. Either leave it open (intentionally) and let the shooter choose their own solution, or be specific and tell the shooter exactly what to do.

 

Nebulous stages can be a lot of fun (my favorites actually) however, the stage writer needs to be clear that the lack of direction is intentional.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Creeker,

 

Now, this is an continual question during the reading of the scenario or walkthrough when the stage writer is not specific. When I first started shooting, the assumption was usually "repeat starting on the same end." Now, it seems the assumption and answer is usually, "repeat starting on either end."

 

There have been threads promoting brevity in stage writing and giving the shooter choices. IMO, minimizing questions is also a goal in stage writing. In this case brevity leads to questions and should be avoided. To minimize questions, the scenario should state, "repeat starting on the same end" or "repeat starting on either end."

 

Otherwise, "repeat" could mean, repeat the stage instructions or repeat the way you shot the first time.

 

That said, stuff happens and it's no big deal if the writer forgets as long as every PM learns the intent at the walkthrough.

 

Allie Mo

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

"Repeat" as used in the stage instructions means "do the same thing again". That is not really hard for me to understand!

 

Blackfoot

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I won't get into whether it is right or wrong, BUT for the Wild Bunch match at Winter Range the word "repeat" will be seen several times. It means repeat the SHOOTING sequence exactly. If you shoot 2 on P2 then sweep P1,P2,P3, and "repeat" it means 2 on P2 then sweep P1,P2, P3 in the same order as you did the first time. NO, I did not write the stages. Just a word to the wise, and it WILL be explained clearly during the PM walk through and again at the meetings.

 

Incidentally around here "repeat" means repeat the shooting sequence exactly, not the overall instructions.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

It's a wonder to me sometimes that we can get bullets downrange without hurting each other after reading threads like this one.

[Shooting Bull]

All I can say is, WOW! I was the stage writer and I had absolutely NO idea that "repeat" was interpreted two different ways. I'd been taught that it meant to repeat the shooting sequence but, I can see how it could be taken as repeat the instructions.

 

This thread has taught me the valuable lesson of how to look at stages from the shooter's view point. Thanks Creeker.

 

 

(You wanna ask 'em about 1-2-4-2-1? )

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

When I write stages

 

I write either repeat instructions or repeat first pistol

 

 

I like leaving things open like direction you start on or I also like repeat instructions giving shooter some options,I also like stages to be run backwards if possible to be fair to both lefties & righties.

 

 

 

AO