What does repeat mean?

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

Words have various meanings and they can mean or refer to different things depending on the readers pacing or the listeners understanding.

 

Five targets in a row left to right.

Stage instructions say

"Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat."

 

What does this mean to you?

Does it mean repeat the SEQUENCE that you have engaged the targets in?

i.e. if you engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 1st five rounds

then you MUST engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with the 2nd five rounds - repeating the exact same sequence.

 

Or does it mean repeat the stage INSTRUCTION?

You could engage T1 - T5 - T2 - T4 - T3 with your 1st five rounds and by repeating the stage instructions, you could then engage T5 - T1 - T4 - T2 - T3 with your 2nd five rounds.

Or (with the 2nd five rounds) any method that engages the five targets 1x each - Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle

 

Which meaning of repeat do you subscribe to and why?

 

The single word "REPEAT" means repeat the thing that was stated. What was stated was an instruction to begin on either end etc.

 

The single word "REPEAT" doesn't mean repeat the order you chose to shoot the first round of instructions.

 

 

 

Why I subscribe to this is because the word repeat is a shortcut to writing the same sequence. So what you really have is this set of instructions:

Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle.

Then

Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle.

 

The order of shooting is clearly specified as is the starting point. In each case the starting point has a choice the shooter must make. Nothing about choosing a starting point for the first iteration precludes or requires the second sequence of shooting to be the same as the first as long as the shooter follows the stage instruction and starts at either end.

 

 

 

If the stage writer wanted you to shoot the same order then the instructions would look like this:

Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle.

Then

Beginning on same end as the previous sequence - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle.

 

Or you could write:

Beginning on either end - engage targets 1x each.

Outside - Outside - Inside - Inside - Middle. Repeat order.

[BJT]

Doubt goes to the shooter.

 

This type of lazy stage writing leads to different posses shooting different instructions.

 

The word "repeat" should be followed with "instruction" or "order shot".

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

In the absence of those "Very clear" instructions - does repeat still mean the same thing?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Doubt goes to the shooter.

 

This type of lazy stage writing leads to different posses shooting different instructions.

 

The word "repeat" should be followed with "instruction" or "order shot".

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

+1

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

All I can say is, WOW! I was the stage writer and I had absolutely NO idea that "repeat" was interpreted two different ways. I'd been taught that it meant to repeat the shooting sequence but, I can see how it could be taken as repeat the instructions.

 

This thread has taught me the valuable lesson of how to look at stages from the shooter's view point. Thanks Creeker.

No problem, at least you are willing to step up to the plate and do some stage writing for your club.

When I write stages I try to give options when possible, like start on either end. This gives lefties the same choice for transitions, and GF a chance to enjoy thier category. Some may say this gives GF an advantage, not hardly, but it does give everyone a choice on which pistol they want to end on to better thier transitions. Another thing I never do is say "with 1st pistol do xzy...holster", "with 2nd pstol do zxy..holster". Mine usually go like....."with pistols shoot two 2-1-2 sweeps starting on either end" or if you want to be more specific..."with pistols shoot two 2-1-2 sweeps staring on the left" this is less confusing, to the point, and less wordy. We all know to holster, it's in the covents. Also by leaving out the word "holster" it does not confuse the spotters when a shooter shoots 4 from one pistol then holsters, garbs second pistol and cocks it about the same time the RO or one of the spotters hollers "one more". Here the shooter can continue the string and come back to his first pistol to shoot the final shot. If "holster'' is in the stage instructions there is always someone saying "you can't do that it's a P" Check out Marauder's site for some good stage writing tips, Good Luck.

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/stages.htm

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Doubt goes to the shooter.

This type of lazy stage writing leads to different posses shooting different instructions.

The word "repeat" should be followed with "instruction" or "order shot".

Cheers,

BJT

 

I don't want to say lazy (the stage writer is a generally ok guy), but he is still new at stage writing.

When I asked him about his meaning (prior to shooting it) - he was surprised that the stage instructions could be understood (or read) differently than his intent.

 

Sometimes in our quest for short, concise stage instructions - we, as stage writers, fail to provide ALL the information needed.

Then as shooters, spotters and Posse Marshalls, we place our own regional or home club habits onto the stage instruction and believe it to say something other than what it does (such as the posts that start with "Around here").

 

I won't pick on stage writers - I write enough stages myself and always think everything is perfect.

Until the 1st person reads it on the range.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Lesseee,

REPEAT = means the second five shots engage the targets exactly as the first five.

 

REPEAT = means the seond five shots need only be the same "sweep" (outside-outside or 1-3-1) not same order.

 

This is but ONE of the many pitfalls for a stagewriter. If you have been there (like me) then you know what I'm talking about! If not, stand by!

 

You will be surprised how people can "interpet" your stages. Using "repeat" only makes your job tougher so, AVOID that word!

 

I don't want to say lazy (the stage writer is a generally ok guy), but he is still new at stage writing.

When I asked him about his meaning (prior to shooting it) - he was surprised that the stage instructions could be understood (or read) differently than his intent.

 

Sometimes in our quest for short, concise stage instructions - we, as stage writers, fail to provide ALL the information needed.

Then as shooters, spotters and Posse Marshalls, we place our own regional or home club habits onto the stage instruction and believe it to say something other than what it does (such as the posts that start with "Around here").

 

I won't pick on stage writers - I write enough stages myself and always think everything is perfect.

Until the 1st person reads it on the range.

[Charlie Whiskers]

Au contraire Mr. Whiskers.

From a supported shooters perspective - as the shooter has to change pistols, then you are right, no real difference of note.

 

From a Gunfighters perspective.

 

Left Pistol - Left outside target

Right Pistol - Right outside target

Left P - Left inside target

Right P - Right inside target

Left P - Middle target

 

If I have to repeat sequence - my next shot is Right Pistol - far LEFT target (either an ugly crossover or change leads)

If I repeat instructions

Next shot is Right P - RIGHT outside target

No pistol crossover - no lead change - it makes a difference.

 

Ok,I did forget about the Gunfighter's point on my reply,but I still think it means do what you did with the 1st sequence.We can argue more about this next spring.....lol.My shooting buddy and I are coming down to see you and hope to shoot 2 matches with your group.Had a ball shooting with you this last spring and want to add the best shoot by a dam site to this upcoming trip.

[DocDisaster # 45431]

Send another round down range. Say again..

 

You have to excuse me I am a former FMF ANGLICO Corpsman.

 

Doc

[Bodie Tom SASS # 67918]

Is spring coming soon?

God, I hope so....................

[G. P. Cobb]

In the absence of those "Very clear" instructions - does repeat still mean the same thing?

_______________

Yep, it does.......

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

The situation seems to arise when "choice" of sequence or direction is left up to the shooter to decide(which is a fun thing).

 

Specifying the target sequence and direction of the first pistol or the first five shots and then utilizing the word "repeat" for the second pistol or second five shots will produce two five shot strings of exactly the same order and direction. For example, "With first pistol engage p1, p2, p3 with a Nevada sweep starting on the left. Repeat with second pistol". "With first five shots engage p1 and p2 in an alternating pattern starting with p1. Repeat with second 5 shots." In stage instructions of this nature a couple of observations seem to be apparent. The stage writer wants the shooter to start on a particular target and follow a specific order. The stage writer also wants the second pistol/5 shots to be in the same identical pattern. Interpreting the word repeat as a repeat of the instructions or of the first sequence results in the same order being followed.

 

When any wording giving choice to the shooter, such as "starting on either end", "engaging targets in any order", "engage targets with one shot each" it is a definite implication by the stage writer that the target sequence or direction is not being specified. After all that is what "any order" mean. For example, "With first pistol shoot one target two times and the other target 3 times. Repeat with second pistol." Here's where the two interpetations clash. It's obvious the instructions for the first pistol allows the shooter to decide which of the two targets he wants to shoot twice and which he chooses to shoot 3 times. With the instruction of "repeat with the second pistol" the question arises, "Why would the stage writer want the second pistol to be specified when he's giving choice on the first 5 shots?" Is he trying to create a procedural trap? Everywhere I shoot in many states, for state matches and above would interpet these stage instructions as giving the same choice to the shooter on the second pistol as he had on the first.

 

The only places I recall seeing these type instructions interpreted that the secnd 5 rounds had to follow the same order as CHOSEN by the shooter on the first 5 rounds was at Wild Bunch matches at Founders Ranch and Ben Avery!

[Nate Clayton, SASS #63196]

...could you repeat the question?

 

 

-Nate

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

I write stages, and that did occur to me back when. I clarify it as has been suggested: repeat instruction, or repeat what you did with the first five.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I still say nonsense!!

 

For those shooters that wanna lawyer repeat...

 

How about we clobber them twice in the gut sack with a ball bat and then ask them if they would like a repeat of being clobbered twice up side the head...

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

Well now

If ya do not shoot the same sequence with the second 5 shots , You just bought yourself a

P .

 

CB

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I still say nonsense!!

 

For those shooters that wanna lawyer repeat...

 

How about we clobber them twice in the gut sack with a ball bat and then ask them if they would like a repeat of being clobbered twice up side the head...

 

 

First you have to find someone bad enough to clobber them a single time.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

REPEAT: to do over again.

 

BUT WHICH PART?

 

O.K., for some who need more understanding.

 

Lets say ya get married and it turns out bad. Real bad. So ya get divorced.

 

About 5 years later, you meet Ms Right. You go before the Preacherman and REPEAT THE SAME VOWS!

 

BUT, do you repeat the same BAD MARRIAGE. I think not!

 

 

This is the foundation of the question Creeker is asking. And apparently, different clubs have different approaches.

 

As mentioned in previous post, its best to ask questions before you get the beep and start sending lead down range.

 

Keep a good thought!

 

 

..........Widder

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

Prof. Fuller Bullspit got it exactly right in Post 36 as have several others. Repeat means just that - do again that which was referenced. What was referenced? The instructions!

 

If the original instructions gave a choice, then the choice is still available in the second string.

 

If there is no choice in the first string, "repeat" gives an adequate description.

 

Cinch, I don't know who the "we" is that is going to put "us" in the sack and hit "us" with bats, could get interesting though. How are you going to get "us" all in the sack??

[Dubious Don #56333]

...As mentioned in previous post, its best to ask questions before you get the beep and start sending lead down range.

 

Keep a good thought!

 

 

..........Widder...

 

Or use Cinch's suggestion on the stagewriter until he promises to stop using the word REPEAT!

[DocWard]

Send another round down range. Say again..

 

You have to excuse me I am a former FMF ANGLICO Corpsman.

 

Doc

 

The first thing I thought when I read the thread title was "you never say repeat unless you want the previously firing battery to send more rounds downrange to its previous target." Yes, I have spent the majority of my military career in the field artillery. Probably not helpful in the discussion though.

[Blastmaster]

I say nonsense too. You shoot the second five rounds in the same target order as your first five rounds.

 

I have heart burn when the vast majority of the posse shoots a stage descrition the same way (in this thread, either interpetation of 'repeat') and then you get some wise-one that throws in the lawyering talk and shoots it with the twisted 'repeat' interpetation in it. Especially if they don't even bother to ask if his methodology would be acceptable. No benefit of the doubt to the shooter in this for instance and he gets a 'P'. I have had numerous opportunities to 'weasel' a stage and could've shot it different for an advantage, but I elected to shoot it the same way as the shooters ahead of me did it.

 

I always ask if what I want to do on the stage is acceptable. This is when I am shooting near the front of the pack.

 

Nope, don't blame the stage writers. Don't dump down on the stage writers. Don't call it lazy stage writing. Just don't.....take candy from a baby or innocent person... If you or anyone else doesn't know exactly what to do or what is expected of you on the line, then ask. If you don't ask, then take whatever penalty, bonus whatever you are handed.

 

JMHO

 

Blastmaster

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

DANG IT! I have to agree with Blastmaster? Must not be enough coffee. Isn't some of the lawyering really just a smoke screen to obscure the real operational agenda: Spirit of the Game?

 

We all know that almost any stage written can be lawyered some way or another. We all know that we can argue "intent" and "benefit of the doubt".... heck, we do it page after page after page. But, that's not really the point is it?

 

Never mind, maybe it's the point here on the SASS WAHR, but here's hoping that it's not the point anywhere else. Anywhere else the word "REPEAT" is clear enough. The stage writer doesn't have to justify his language to every lawyer in the posse. To me, if the stage writer writes it clear enough for the posse marshall to answer questions then it's good enough.

 

If that's not good enough when shooters ask "can I do <blank>?" then fine... go find out. OTHERWISE>>>.... you're getting a "P". And you are free to use the Protest Provisions as needed.

[Blastmaster]

DANG IT! Do I have to agree with BK?

 

Yep!! I like how you said it. We are on the same page on this one.

 

Blastmaster

[BJT]

Stage has 10 revolver knockdowns

 

Instructions say:

 

With first revolver, engage 5 knockdowns.

 

With second revolver, repeat.

 

How many of you yahoos gonna shoot at the targets you already knocked down?

 

You all crack me up, you really do.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Well Blastmaster and Bro King,

 

while you two are handing me a 'P', I hope I whooped ya both by atleast 10 seconds on that stage.

 

p.s. - save me a place at the lunch table.

 

 

..........Widder

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Stage has 10 revolver knockdowns

 

Instructions say:

 

With first revolver, engage 5 knockdowns.

 

With second revolver, repeat.

 

How many of you yahoos gonna shoot at the targets you already knocked down?

 

You all crack me up, you really do.

 

Cheers,

BJT

You drinkin' already? It's early... even for a lawyer or a Wall Street banker.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

DANG IT! I have to agree with Blastmaster? Must not be enough coffee. Isn't some of the lawyering really just a smoke screen to obscure the real operational agenda: Spirit of the Game?

 

 

When someone questions if stage instructions might mean something other than what you think they mean, suddenly it's a Spirit of the game issue?

 

Me? I prefer to think for myself - and when something is unclear, I would rather explore the possibilities than march in mindless lockstep.

 

Sometimes it is hard to fight the current, but going with the flow usually just means you're dead.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Stage has 10 revolver knockdowns

 

Instructions say:

 

With first revolver, engage 5 knockdowns.

 

With second revolver, repeat.

 

How many of you yahoos gonna shoot at the targets you already knocked down?

 

You all crack me up, you really do.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

BJT,

 

your gona ruin a good argument by interjecting logic and wisdom.

 

 

Best Regards

 

 

..........Widder

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

BJT really pegged it!! Think about it for about a minute or two. The word "Repeat" hanging out there all by itself means "do what was written ... again."

We need to learn when we "read" something, read it exactly as written. There is NO "now that means." If your didn't write it, you don't get to interpret what the writer really meant.

But, by all means, read the word "repeat" and shoot the 5 targets that are already down. I need all the help I can get!!!

 

Coffinmaker

 

PS: If it seems wrong, it probably is. ASK.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Well Blastmaster and Bro King,

while you two are handing me a 'P', I hope I whooped ya both by atleast 10 seconds on that stage.

p.s. - save me a place at the lunch table.

..........Widder

You seen me shoot? Maybe... but I've seen the Blastmaster shoot ... good luck on that 10 seconds, pard.

 

When someone questions if stage instructions might mean something other than what you think they mean, suddenly it's a Spirit of the game issue?

Me? I prefer to think for myself - and when something is unclear, I would rather explore the possibilities than march in mindless lockstep.

Sometimes it is hard to fight the current, but floating downstream usually just means you're dead.

OH WHAT HAPPY BULLSH**. If there's a question then ask it! BEFORE you go showing how cute you can re-interpret the stage instructions. Otherwise, if I have the timer then you're getting a "P". Then you can march your cute- all- huffy- and- puffy- and- full- of- your- "mindless Lockstep" self right downstream to the MD and file a protest.

 

Maybe you just do it so you have something cute to show the SASS WAHR.... either way... it's going to leave a mark.... as in 10 seconds on your time.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

BJT,

 

your gona ruin a good argument by interjecting logic and wisdom.

 

 

Best Regards

 

 

..........Widder

Injecting another hypothetical isn't a "good argument"... nor is it "logic and wisdom".

 

"I don't deal with 'hypotheticals'. The world is vexing enough by itself." Colonel G Stonehill, True Grit

 

Nor is intending a straw man argument with a spurious suggestion that the shooter engage targets that have already been shot a valid counterpoint to a rational debate.

 

We don't need to re-define the meaning of every word of a stage instruction. Ask the question prior to assuming your presumption that you can be cute and be rewarded by gaining advantage or suffer the consequences of running into a TO that isn't as impressed with your Spirit of the Game as you are.

 

Please? Please? Please?... Can I have the timer, just for Creeker? Then we'll get to see if he asks before he shoots or whines afterward about what a HARDASS I am.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Otherwise, if I have the timer then you're getting a "P". Then you can march your cute- all- huffy- and- puffy- and- full- of- your- "mindless Lockstep" self right downstream to the MD and file a protest.

 

I would take offense if you hadn't admitted I'm cute at least two times in your post.

 

And after I file my huffy puffy protest and my (incorrect) penalty is over turned, I will accept your apology (and buy you a dictionary).

 

I'll still shoot with you - I just won't let you run the timer when I am going to be clever.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I would take offense if you hadn't admitted I'm cute at least two times in your post.

 

And after I file my huffy puffy protest and my (incorrect) penalty is over turned, I will accept your apology (and buy you a dictionary).

 

I'll still shoot with you - I just won't let you run the timer when I am going to be clever.

I'll be your huckleberry! Where? When? I'm thinkin' Winter Range? Request me on your posse.... g'head... dare ya....

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I'll be your huckleberry! Where? When? I'm thinkin' Winter Range? Request me on your posse.... g'head... dare ya....

 

Brother, I would posse with you anytime, anywhere.

If you want to posse with me at Winter Range - you are welcome to do so.

We can always use another timer operator.

[ShadowCatcher]

When someone questions if stage instructions might mean something other than what you think they mean, suddenly it's a Spirit of the game issue?

 

Me? I prefer to think for myself - and when something is unclear, I would rather explore the possibilities than march in mindless lockstep.

 

Sometimes it is hard to fight the current, but going with the flow usually just means you're dead.

Ya know - I've seen liberal answers and hardass answers on this topic.

 

The liberal folks say it's no big deal - repeat the total set of instructions -

the hardass say shoot it exactly as you did before - or get a procedural.

 

In terms of the spirit of the game - I know which group I'd rather shoot with or take a newbie to meet . .

 

just saying . . . .

 

I go to a revival meeting when I need righteous indignation, I go play at cowboy shooting. YMMV . . .

 

happy trails to you . . .

 

Shadow Catcher