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WTC - 170 degree rule.


Hoss

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3 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Isn’t breaking 170 essentially  sweeping everyone?

Well, not exactly. # 1 nobody should be downrange of the shooter, is if everyone is behind the shooter then he could break the 170 without sweeping anyone. (And remember, the line moves with the shooter). And on this particular case the violation was vertical. Highly unlikely anyone was above the shooter! 

4 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

A friend of mine  broke the 170 by quite a bit with a loaded rifle and got a MDQ!

He must have swept someone 

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8 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Well, not exactly. # 1 nobody should be downrange of the shooter, is if everyone is behind the shooter then he could break the 170 without sweeping anyone. (And remember, the line moves with the shooter). And on this particular case the violation was vertical. Highly unlikely anyone was above the shooter! 

He must have swept someone 

You said if the shotgun went off when he was banging the gun to reset the trigger everyone would have been showered with lead. That’s seems pretty unsafe to me. Glad it didn’t happen but it could have. 
BTW yes my friend did sweep a bunch of people 

Edited by Rye Miles #13621
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39 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Isn’t breaking 170 essentially  sweeping everyone?

No.

 

You can break the 170 without sweeping someone.

 

If your buddy got a MDQ for breaking the 170 without sweeping anyone...he got ripped off. 

 

Phantom

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6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No.

 

You can break the 170 without sweeping someone.

 

If your buddy got a MDQ for breaking the 170 without sweeping anyone...he got ripped off. 

 

Phantom

No I said he did sweep a bunch of people like I said him the previous comment to Hoss!

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16 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

No I said he did sweep a bunch of people like I said him the previous comment to Hoss!

I responded to your last post seen on page one...obviously didn't look to see if the answer was already given...it happens.

 

Phantom

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Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I responded to your last post seen on page one...obviously didn't look to see if the answer was already given...it happens.

 

Phantom

That’s why you shouldn’t drink while you’re on the Wire!! 😂😂😂😂😂

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1 minute ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

That’s why you shouldn’t drink while you’re on the Wire!! 😂😂😂😂😂

If I didn't drink while on the Wire...things would get real ugly real fast.

 

🤗

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21 hours ago, Hoss said:

I was at loading table, watching, so had no “official” standing, other than “everyone is a safety officer”. 
 

Shooter using single trigger intertial reset shotgun. Shoots first shot, BANG 

second shot- nothing trigger did not reset. Shooter un-shoulders SG bangs butt on table, muzzle more or less straight up. This resets trigger, shooter finishes stage with no further issues. 
 

No call was made.  After the stage I discussed this with shooter. (Very accomplished & experienced shooter). My thought was it should be a SDQ. He said he had seen lots of shooters reset like this, no call was ever made as muzzle was essentially pointed in a safe direction.  While I’m not disagreeing that the muzzle was pointed in safe direction, it definitely broke the 170. I supposed had it gone BANG while being reset, the posse would have been subject to a lead shower! 
 

I know what the rule book says, but would this fall under “don’t be a hardazz” exception, or would you call the SDQ? 

There is no reason to hit the butt of a SKB single trigger on anything if it fails switch barrels it's a good way to crack or worse break the butt stock. If it fails to switch just push the barrel selector to change barrels that's the smart way to do it and faster, I have mine set to shoot the right barrel first, then if it fails to switch, I just have to push to button to the left, after 12 years with my SKB I have only had to push that button twice!  

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24 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

There is no reason to hit the butt of a SKB single trigger on anything if it fails switch barrels it's a good way to crack or worse break the butt stock. If it fails to switch just push the barrel selector to change barrels that's the smart way to do it and faster, I have mine set to shoot the right barrel first, then if it fails to switch, I just have to push to button to the left, after 12 years with my SKB I have only had to push that button twice!  

I hadn’t thought about that, and yes it was an SKB

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SO.  With all this hullabaloo about the 170 rule.  Where does the 170 rule come into play as the shooter turns to plod off to the Unloading Table pray Tell.  Or when plowing across the stage whilst picking up ones guns to plod off to the loading table??  Is there a penalty of the 170 when you Break Wind??  Huymmmmmmmm 

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I have and observed several others bump the stock without breaking the 170 and for me it is quicker than trying to find the selector button.  Just have to do it at an angle.  My current skb has yet to fail me, but if it did I would bump it!  In addition, I had one skb where the smith disabled the selector.  I also store my skb decocked and bump it every time I return it to storage and have not broken a stock yet.  Bumping and slamming are different things.  YMMV.

Tye

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20 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I was initially against the Cone of Death...Safety...now I'm for it.

 

NO ONE is consistently calling slight 180 violations. If one actually called all the 180 violations they would have no one to shoot with.

 

Phantom

This^^^because it's pretty much what we have now.

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On 10/5/2024 at 6:06 PM, John Kloehr said:

According to the Florida Center for Instructional Technology (source of clipart), 5 degrees from vertical.

 

10 degrees looks bigger:

 

protractor-01-1641440782.png

As a rule of thumb, a pencil sharpener cuts about 5 degrees from each side, so the pencil taper is (about) 10 degrees. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Break the 170, SDQ.   It doesn't matter if breaks 170 vertically or horizontally. I got a SDQ for vertically breaking the 170 while carrying my rifle to the next prop to set it down before shooting my shotgun.

 

.

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26 minutes ago, Tex Wilson said:

Break the 170, SDQ.   It doesn't matter if breaks 170 vertically or horizontally. I got a SDQ for vertically breaking the 170 while carrying my rifle to the next prop to set it down before shooting my shotgun.

 

.

 I doubt anyone could actually tell 170 from 169,168, 172. or 175.

  Best Wishes 

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39 minutes ago, Tex Wilson said:

Break the 170, SDQ.   It doesn't matter if breaks 170 vertically or horizontally. I got a SDQ for vertically breaking the 170 while carrying my rifle to the next prop to set it down before shooting my shotgun.

 

.

So in this case, there is absolutely no way of knowing the condition (loaded / unloaded), of your rifle...so I'll ask you since the same question that the other person refuses to answer: If a shooter is 2 steps from the ULT and their SG closes, will you SDQ them for taking those 2 steps to the ULT with the closed SG?

 

Phantom

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27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So in this case, there is absolutely no way of knowing the condition (loaded / unloaded), of your rifle...so I'll ask you since the same question that the other person refuses to answer: If a shooter is 2 steps from the ULT and their SG closes, will you SDQ them for taking those 2 steps to the ULT with the closed SG?

 

Phantom

As much as I hate to say it , Phantom is correct .OUCH that hurt.

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7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

As a rule of thumb, a pencil sharpener cuts 5 degrees from each side, so the pencil taper is 10 degrees. 

W H A T ! ! !

So what does that have to do with this?

Whose calibrated thumb.

Is your pencil sharpener calibrated? 

Please make comments that can be confirmed.

 

FYI, I do agree that it is very difficult to evaluate +-5 deg while watching the shooter.  

That is probably (I do not know for sure) why there is a suggested warning.  BUT, after a few warnings, maybe a call should be made.  

If you do not like the 170 rule then tell your TG.  Suggest a better rule, then campaign for it.

 

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39 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

W H A T ! ! !

So what does that have to do with this?

Whose calibrated thumb.

Is your pencil sharpener calibrated? 

Please make comments that can be confirmed.

 

FYI, I do agree that it is very difficult to evaluate +-5 deg while watching the shooter.  

That is probably (I do not know for sure) why there is a suggested warning.  BUT, after a few warnings, maybe a call should be made.  

If you do not like the 170 rule then tell your TG.  Suggest a better rule, then campaign for it.

 

Wow!  Sorry!

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On 10/7/2024 at 4:53 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So in this case, there is absolutely no way of knowing the condition (loaded / unloaded), of your rifle...so I'll ask you since the same question that the other person refuses to answer: If a shooter is 2 steps from the ULT and their SG closes, will you SDQ them for taking those 2 steps to the ULT with the closed SG?

 

Phantom

You didn't ask me, but I'll give you the shortened version of the comment I made on that other vanquished thread... No.  IMO, the 170º rule is for the firing line, ie from when you stage your long guns until the retrieve them.  "Generally up and slightly downrange if on a common firing line" is for when you lift your long guns from the loading table and approach the place where you stage them, and when you retrieve them from where they were discarded after the stage to their placement on the unloading table.  Same as when you're behind the scenes carrying them to and from your cart.  A cleared long gun at the conclusion of firing, carried in a safe, upright manner that happens to close from the forces of gravity, SHOULD not be a penalty.  

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33 minutes ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

I was told by a MD to let a shooter complete the stage and then let the TO know that the shooter broke the 170 and the TO will then evaluate the call same as a "P", rather then stop the shooter when the 170 is broken.

 

Quote

BREAKING THE 170º SAFETY RULE

A TO/Spotter shall make an immediate “Cease-Fire” call if any firearm breaks the 170º safety rule. This call will result in a Stage or Match Disqualification to the shooter. The Timer Operator shall make a good faith effort to prevent the shooter from breaking the safety rule by verbal command or physical contact, if necessary.

RO2 p.9 INCIDENTS DURING THE COURSE OF FIRE

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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On 10/6/2024 at 1:52 PM, Tye Riverman, SASS #41433 said:

I have and observed several others bump the stock without breaking the 170 and for me it is quicker than trying to find the selector button.  Just have to do it at an angle.  My current skb has yet to fail me, but if it did I would bump it!  In addition, I had one skb where the smith disabled the selector.  I also store my skb decocked and bump it every time I return it to storage and have not broken a stock yet.  Bumping and slamming are different things.  YMMV.

Tye

Well from what I have seen over the years in the heat of the moment the shooters slam the stock, I never had a problem finding the button, it's on the trigger? and why would you have to bump the stock after decocking for storage?

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*Shooter broke the 170. SDQ

*Shooter changed locations with a closed cocked long gun other than from the loading table. SDQ

 

Soap box time, and I aint gonna be popular.

  1) These are rules, not recommendations. If you don't like them, talk to your TG about changing them. If you can't make the call, don't operate the timer. 

  2) Some people fuss about the fairness of the sport or game across the board because one shooter's TO helped them and another shooter's TO did not. All the while saying they would not make a certain call. You can't play both sides. Pick one. 

  3) Regarding the 170° rule. Someone may not be able to tell if a gun is 169° or 171° but everydanged one of you can tell if it's straight up or straight down or all the way left or all the way right of the line! That means it is at 180° and therefore has broken the 170° rule! There is no longer ANY DOUBT for the shooter. Make the call. It doesn't matter if you're the TO or a spotter. Even if you're in the peanut gallery you're a safety officer and should tell the TO. The TO is in a bad position to call the 170 vertical from directly behind the shooter. This is IMO, THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE IN SASS.

   4) Going back and forth with a WTC thread on the SASS wire when you know what the correct call should be, but you FEEL it should be different is not at all helpful to the new shooter. They just want clarification. See number 1 above.

  

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 So someone in the peanut gallery said he broke the 170 and shooter is penalized makes sense.  Nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So someone in the peanut gallery said he broke the 170 and shooter is penalized makes sense.  Nonsense.

Peanut gallery input on safety violations is very common in other shooting sports.  If reported, a good TO will spend a few seconds to determine if anyone else can confirm the violation before making the call. 
 

Safety rules are in place to protect the shooters and the organization.  In the interest of all, violations must be called.  To ignore them could eventually lead to accidents, which no one wants. 
 

As compared to other shooting sports that I’ve been involved in, CAS tends to be a bit more relaxed in terms of calling safety violations.  This is not a good thing.

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 If the violation is valid  make a call  but, do you know a  person who can tell 170 from 168.167?

 Shooters spend thousands on some events and to have a rule nut making calls from the posse is not helpful. IMHO

 

Best Wishes

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38 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 If the violation is valid  make a call  but, do you know a  person who can tell 170 from 168.167?

 Shooters spend thousands on some events and to have a rule nut making calls from the posse is not helpful. IMHO

 

Best Wishes

Someone making an unpopular safety call isn’t a nut. They might be saving your life. By your logic since we can’t tell the difference between 168 and 170 we shouldn’t make the call? How about requiring the shooter own his actions?  Since according to you it’s super difficult to judge 170 violations maybe shooters should be super careful not to violate that rule?
 

Is our goal a sport that never mistakenly calls a shooter for an infraction or a sport where nobody gets shot? It would be nice to have both, but if we must err one way or the other my vote is for nobody getting shot.

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1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 If the violation is valid  make a call  but, do you know a  person who can tell 170 from 168.167?

 Shooters spend thousands on some events and to have a rule nut making calls from the posse is not helpful. IMHO

 

Best Wishes

That’s splitting a hair that doesn’t need messed with.  A shooter would be wise not to flirt with the 170 so as to avoid those borderline calls and wasted investment.  
 

As for the “rule nut”, that person’s calls can be dealt with corroboration with others.  If their calls are consistently overruled, they’ll eventually get the point. 

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32 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Someone making an unpopular safety call isn’t a nut. They might be saving your life. By your logic since we can’t tell the difference between 168 and 170 we shouldn’t make the call? How about requiring the shooter own his actions?  Since according to you it’s super difficult to judge 170 violations maybe shooters should be super careful not to violate that rule?
 

Is our goal a sport that never mistakenly calls a shooter for an infraction or a sport where nobody gets shot? It would be nice to have both, but if we must err one way or the other my vote is for nobody getting shot.

 I said rule nut  Now that does not mean all who bring alleged violations to the attention of the RO are nuts But I suspect you know what it meant.😉

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10 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

That’s splitting a hair that doesn’t need messed with.  A shooter would be wise not to flirt with the 170 so as to avoid those borderline calls and wasted investment.  
 

As for the “rule nut”, that person’s calls can be dealt with corroboration with others.  If their calls are consistently overruled, they’ll eventually get the point. 

 Exactly 

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3 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So someone in the peanut gallery said he broke the 170 and shooter is penalized makes sense.  Nonsense.

  Everybody is a safety officer. Even the peanut gallery. Something does not have to make sense to you for it to be true. Everybody deserves input on safety. It is up to the TO ultimately to assess the call.

1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 If the violation is valid  make a call  but, do you know a  person who can tell 170 from 168.167?

 Shooters spend thousands on some events and to have a rule nut making calls from the posse is not helpful. IMHO

 

Best Wishes

Go back and Re-read number 3 in my post. AND someone spent thousands of dollars to shoot a match...OK. So did every other person at that match! Do you know who you penalize by not making a legitimate call on that shooter? EVERY OTHER SHOOTER AT THAT MATCH!

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

  Everybody is a safety officer. Even the peanut gallery. Something does not have to make sense to you for it to be true. Everybody deserves input on safety. It is up to the TO ultimately to assess the call.

Go back and Re-read number 3 in my post. AND someone spent thousands of dollars to shoot a match...OK. So did every other person at that match! Do you know who you penalize by not making a legitimate call on that shooter? EVERY OTHER SHOOTER AT THAT MATCH!

Legitimate calls yes.

 

Best Wishes

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