Question - when can you touch SG loads?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Without committing to a non-credit class in philosophy, I redirect your attention to the SASS "DEFAULT" starting position.  "Standing, Hands at Sides."  Lacking stage instructional guidance, this is where you start.  It is a fairly simple concept, not requiring a semester of higher education to understand.

 

The other simple concept, we don't "interpret" SASS rules.  We apply them exactly as written.  So the basic premise is first READ the rule book.  Those are THE rules.  Not what one thinks they should be.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I also call dibs on the POPCORN concession and cheer all the competitors on for at least THREE pages (Sorry, I'm fresh out of peanuts).

[Tennessee williams]

On 7/31/2024 at 6:44 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Actually the rule on page 27 is - 

 

The following are SASS Conventions for Ammunition

- Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand(s) unless otherwise directed by stage design/description

 

For the sake of argument "in hand" does not appear to be defined.  The convention does not say you cannot touch your shells.

 

If you are shooting duelist you can have your off hand on your revolver while it is in the holster while you are shooting the other gun.  The revolver is not in hand until it is out of the holster (or off the stage prop if the revolver is staged).  Is your shotgun ammo "in hand" if it is still in the shotgun belt?

I included a screenshot of the rule when I quoted pg27.

[Tennessee williams]

On 7/31/2024 at 7:13 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

o The competitor shall not have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.

 

Scenario, revolvers are staged on a table.  A Duelist shooter grabs both revolvers and shoots one of his guns.  The other gun was "in hand" but not totally off the table. My recollection is the rule interpretation was that as long as the muzzle of the second gun is in contact with the table it is not "in hand" and there is no violation of the Duelist category rules.  Maybe my recollection is incorrect BUT I don't think so!

  Ah, but how about the shooter (Duelist or traditional shooter either one) who is shooting revolvers last on the stage. They shoot the first one and miscount, only firing 4 rounds instead of 5. They lay it down on the table and fire the next revolver. 

  That shooter earns a P as soon as that first round goes down range from the 2nd pistol for shooting out of category. Why? Because the first revolver is still considered "in hand" as defined in the SHB and only Gunfighter style is allowed to have 2 loaded revolvers "in hand".

 With our handbook, you cannot take a rule from one section and apply it to another because it may not work that way. For instance. Say I want to know about touching ammo. I don't look up touching. Or in hand. Or skin. That is all generic. I look up ammo. Where all is ammo? There are several. One is ammo covenants. It says ammo can't be in hand. Why do I want to pick to death what "in hand" means at this point? It is something different for different things. I believe a reasonable individual would take this to mean my hand can't be touching the ammo. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

On 7/30/2024 at 12:10 PM, Ashley D Austin said:

Some clubs I go to say you can never touch shot gun loads that are on a table or in your ammo belt/bandolier when beginning with the shotgun. Other clubs say you can touch your SG loads if the scenario calls for Shooter in Ready Position or SASS Ready, but not when the scenario calls for two hands on a long gun. What is the rule on this? I understand the loads must remain in the belt or on the table and not in hand until the clock begins.

 

So...it seems as if we have really wandered from the OP's question. 

 

What we know: 

Stage Convention 

SASS default: If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides and not touching any firearm.

 

We know that overriding one part of this convention does not override the others. For instance, if shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions indicate otherwise.

 

o Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright.

 

Ammunition convention 

Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand(s). 

 

We also know that these non-safety conventions can be overridden by stage instructions.

 

So...just thinking out loud here, if the stage writer wants to have a starting position outside of the SASS default (which I am a firm believer that NO stage should start at SASS default because it's boring), then it is critical that the limits that you wish to place on the shooter are clearly stated.

 

For instance:

 

Shooter starts anywhere at their discretion, hands not touching guns or ammo.

 

This way, the shooter not only knows their expected position for starting, but also what they are explicitly not allowed to do, especially in the instance where a match or stage writer is making up their own stage conventions such as 'ready position' or 'agayw'.

 

Just a thought.

Edited August 2 by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

So...it seems as if we have really wandered from the OP's question. 

 

What we know: 

Stage Convention 

SASS default: If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides and not touching any firearm.

 

We know that overriding one part of this convention does not override the others. For instance, if shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions indicate otherwise.

 

o Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright.

 

Ammunition convention 

Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand(s). 

 

We also know that these non-safety conventions can be overridden by stage instructions.

 

So...just thinking out loud here, if the stage writer wants to have a starting position outside of the SASS default (which I am a firm believer that NO stage should start at SASS default because it's boring), then it is critical that the limits that you wish to place on the shooter are clearly stated.

 

For instance:

 

Shooter starts anywhere at their discretion, hands not touching guns or ammo.

 

This way, the shooter not only knows their expected position for starting, but also what they are explicitly not allowed to do, especially in the instance where a match or stage writer is making up their own stage conventions such as 'ready position' or 'agayw'.

 

Just a thought.

I like it.

  Staying off topic. Some stagewriters as you know get chastised for superfluous verbiage which shooters should know from just reading the handbook. Others get chastised for not including enough instruction. We just aren't going to make 100% happy. I've been wording stages different purposefully to see what results in the fewest questions and the most understanding.

   Some superfluous instruction I hear people fuss about:

*Hands not touching gun or ammo

*make shotgun (or rifle) safe

*pistols holstered

There's others but my food just came out!

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

50 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Some superfluous instruction I hear people fuss about:

*Hands not touching gun or ammo

*make shotgun (or rifle) safe

*pistols holstered

 

I'll agree that you don't need to tell people to make guns safe or to holster your pistols, but, to the OP, how would you as a stage writer differentiate between the stages that you don't want people to touch gun or ammo and the ones that you don't care if they do in the event you want to relieve the shooter from adhering to the SASS default "hands at sides" on the stage? And, to the OP point, where is the stage convention that says "hands not touching ammo?"

 

Furthermore, to drive again off topic, on a stage which allows a shooter to begin with a rifle reload on the clock after the beep, for those shooter who wears a buscadero or drop holsters, and have pistol reloads on their holster, what prevents them from having their hands at their side pinching the rifle reload between their thumb and forefinger in the event that we cannot determine what is "ammunition in hand(s)"?

[Tennessee williams]

28 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I'll agree that you don't need to tell people to make guns safe or to holster your pistols, but, to the OP, how would you as a stage writer differentiate between the stages that you don't want people to touch gun or ammo and the ones that you don't care if they do in the event you want to relieve the shooter from adhering to the SASS default "hands at sides" on the stage?

I use the verbiage begin "Standing at shooters discretion" thereby eliminating the SASS defaulted way they must stand. I haven't eliminated any ammo covenants with that verbiage so it still is in effect. 

28 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

And, to the OP point, where is the stage convention that says "hands not touching ammo?"

 

Just my opinion but I believe it is obvious or should be, that by saying you can't start with ammo in hand, you can't pinch it between your fingers either. But, we have bottles of bleach that says do not drink it so I guess there's some folks out there who need to be told not to.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

5 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Why do I want to pick to death what "in hand" means at this point? It is something different for different things. I believe a reasonable individual would take this to mean my hand can't be touching the ammo. 

Why? Because when you are interpreting rules, regulations, statutes, contracts, etc. in order to avoid confusion terms should mean the same thing throughout the document.  As far as "reasonable individual" this is SASS.  The reason the rule book is getting longer each year is because what is reasonable to one person might not be reasonable to another.  The reason we have the SASS default starting postition is because in the past many shooter's starting position looked like a gorilla with hemorrhoids and some "reasonable" people thought this did not look cowboy.  Now enough people think the SASS default is unreasonable and the starting position "at the ready" is being used at more and more shoots including EOT.  When a shooter asks what is "at the ready" the answer is stand anyway you want except your cannot be touching your guns or ammunition.  I was actually surprised when the OP's question was asked and I noticed the rule does not specifically say you cannot touch your ammo.  If it did this thread would have been two posts long.  Pale Wolf would have cited the rule and locked the thread.  For the past 25+ years of shooting SASS I have always undestood the rule to be you cannot "touch" your ammo.  That does not mean some newer "reasonable individual" might not interpret in hand to mean no touching.  At any rate you guys have fun I am heading for the Western Regional.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

42 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I use the verbiage begin "Standing at shooters discretion" thereby eliminating the SASS defaulted way they must stand. I haven't eliminated any ammo covenants with that verbiage so it still is in effect. 

 

From your description, it sounds like you don't want to eliminate the "hands at the sides and not touching any firearm" from SASS default and just want to override "the shooter shall stand upright" with your stage instructions. And that's ok.

 

However, some stage writers don't care if your hands are hovering over the gun, so they tell you that you can have your hands anywhere you want, but they don't want you to actually touch the gun. You can be a millimeter from it, just don't touch it. Some don't even care if you are touching it, either, and they will override that as well. Different strokes for different folks.

 

48 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Just my opinion but I believe it is obvious or should be, that by saying you can't start with ammo in hand, you can't pinch it between your fingers either.

 

Ya, but will everybody else see it the same way? Or will some see the different wording and assume there is a difference in a prohibition between touching something and having something else in hand and argue about it for three pages on the wire?

[Tennessee williams]

33 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Why? Because when you are interpreting rules, regulations, statutes, contracts, etc. in order to avoid confusion terms should mean the same thing throughout the document.

   I am among other things, a commercial and large residential building contractor. The SHB is not written as a contract and isn't meant to be read as a contract. The SHB resembles a building code book as much as anything. Meaning there are many sub-sets or categorical rules if you will. What is pertinent to one sub-set has nothing to do with another.

An example is this: traditional or duelist shooter fires only 4 from 1st revolver and lays it down on the table. Draws 2nd pistol and gets a P as soon as the 1st round goes down range from the 2nd pistol for shooting out of category because the pistol laying on the table not being touched at all by the shooter is considered "in hand" with a live round in it and the only style can have to in hand is Gunfighter. 

Which is contrary to this: Shooter fires all 5 out of the first revolver and tables it Intending to fire the next revolver not realizing he or she cocked the 1st one an extra time. That shooter has just received a stage DQ for a cocked revolver leaving the shooters' hand!!

33 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 As far as "reasonable individual" this is SASS.  The reason the rule book is getting longer each year is because what is reasonable to one person might not be reasonable to another. 

Wait for it...

33 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I was actually surprised when the OP's question was asked and I noticed the rule does not specifically say you cannot touch your ammo.  

^I think this is why the shb is so large. If it says we can't have ammo in hand, do we really think we can squeeze it between thumb and forefinger? Honestly? 

33 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

If it did this thread would have been two posts long.  Pale Wolf would have cited the rule and locked the thread.

If I were PWB, I'd want extra pay for having to explain everything. And for some people(not you!) to get mad because someone told someone else to read the rule book? That their purpose is to help people, not say that? I'd say that reading the rule book WOULD help people. What are we going to do in 200 years when PWB gets tired of telling people not to drink the bleach and quits? 

33 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 For the past 25+ years of shooting SASS I have always undestood the rule to be you cannot "touch" your ammo.  That does not mean some newer "reasonable individual" might not interpret in hand to mean no touching.  At any rate you guys have fun I am heading for the Western Regional.

They may not interpret it the correct way, but that's why everyone here tries to help folks. When I said "reasonable person", I meant it in the legal definition i.e. "the usual behavior of an average person under the same circumstance".

 

I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking you, it's just that you brought up good points that I wanted to touch base on. I appreciate that.

  Good luck and have fun at the Western Regionals. Shoot well!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I think you are being unreasonable.  

[Tennessee williams]

7 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I think you are being unreasonable.  

Well. I've got no comeback for that one. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

35 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I think you are being unreasonable.  

 

You got that right.

Ya oughta talk to him about religion or the Bible sometimes....... 😀

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Cummon people!!  Page three is just around the corner.  Hustle up!!

[Griff]

On 7/30/2024 at 12:10 PM, Ashley D Austin said:

Some clubs I go to say you can never touch shot gun loads that are on a table or in your ammo belt/bandolier when beginning with the shotgun. Other clubs say you can touch your SG loads if the scenario calls for Shooter in Ready Position or SASS Ready, but not when the scenario calls for two hands on a long gun. What is the rule on this? I understand the loads must remain in the belt or on the table and not in hand until the clock begins.

The rule is, "whatever the stage writer sez it is."  Since "Shooter Ready" or "SASS Ready" are not defined the SHB, whether you can have shotshells in hand or touching them is up to the stage writer.  If you're unclear as to what the local rule is, it should be questioned during the reading of the stage.  But... what do I know... I'm certainly not any sorta rule guru... and sometimes remember the rules like they were 30 years ago!

[Texas Jack Black]

 Rule Book " Subject to interpretation by the authority having jurisdiction"☹️

 In other words a complete mess IMHO

[Griff]

47 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Rule Book " Subject to interpretation by the authority having jurisdiction"☹️

 In other words a complete mess IMHO

Why do you think the powers-that-were, back in the day, titled it "Handbook"?

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

We wouldn't need this discussion if more people would just read the ROIII manual. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

[Idaho Gunslinger]

8 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

We wouldn't need this discussion if more people would just read the ROIII manual. 

I think SASS got rid of RO3. If you go to their website they only have RO1 and RO2 listed. 

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

2 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I think SASS got rid of RO3. If you go to their website they only have RO1 and RO2 listed. 

The ROIII manual is only available through personal exchange from people that currently have a copy ingrained in them.

[Barry Sloe]

4 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I think SASS got rid of RO3. If you go to their website they only have RO1 and RO2 listed. 

I do think that a lot of shooters need to read through the Shooters Handbook, even if it's to take the cobwebs out.

RO3 is common sense.  It may be very difficult to find it.

 

BS

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

7 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I think SASS got rid of RO3. If you go to their website they only have RO1 and RO2 listed. 

There never has been an RO3 manual.  Its a long running joke. 

[Griff]

3 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

RO3 is common sense.

Bingo!

[Idaho Gunslinger]

8 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

There never has been an RO3 manual.  Its a long running joke. 

Good to know! I was under the impression there used to be one! Jokes on me as a newer shooter I guess!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

As for an RO III manual, its in its initial stages of being finalized....... BUT, its not gonna be a 'manual' per'sey.

 

I've been given a preliminary copy to proof read because of my xtroynary reeding skeels.

Actually, I gut my copy in the male seemingly cent from PWB, although their seem two bee 

sum nanner split drippings on it.

 

..........Widder

[Seminole Sam]

 

On 7/30/2024 at 5:35 PM, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

This tread is about shotgun ammo specifically. If your rifle only holds 9 in the magazine then it is not really suited well for shooting Cowboy Action. If you have not been to a match yet you really should do that before you buy any more firearms. Maybe you already had this rifle and did not purchase it recently for CAS.

OK - other question was the 12 Ga. 1 3/4" "Shorty" rounds.  I don't see anything in the rulebook that says these are not allowed and they may not even work in a pump but I have an external hammer double barrel.  Not coned, tapered or any of the restrictions, just a full inch shorter than regular rounds.  Seems like these could be faster.

 

My interest in this was because I already had every gun for every category this sport has.  Nothing is modified for speed as prior to discovering this I had no reason to do that.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Seminole Sam said:

 

OK - other question was the 12 Ga. 1 3/4" "Shorty" rounds.  I don't see anything in the rulebook that says these are not allowed and they may not even work in a pump but I have an external hammer double barrel.  Not coned, tapered or any of the restrictions, just a full inch shorter than regular rounds.  Seems like these could be faster.

 

My interest in this was because I already had every gun for every category this sport has.  Nothing is modified for speed as prior to discovering this I had no reason to do that.

 

They're LEGAL.

They're also a bit more "fumbley" for some folks.

I happen to have a '97 that holds 9 of them that will fire them as fast as I can operate the pump action.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

To address the OP inquiry...

Individual match/stage conventions can specify verbiage that defines such terms as "At the ready".

An example of this would be:

 

End of Trail Shooters! We have an "End of Trail Only" stage convention that is important for you to know regarding shooter "stance". 

Our stage language "At The Ready" means, if no starting position is given the shooter may be in an athletic "ready" posture, with hands not touching guns or ammo. The shooter does not have to start a stage standing upright with hands at their sides unless specifically stated in the stage description. 

Other stance instructions will always apply (hands at low surrender, touching revolvers, Rifle in Hand, etc...). 

This convention applies at End of Trail Only and does not change SASS rules at other SASS sanctioned matches.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

53 minutes ago, Seminole Sam said:

My interest in this was because I already had every gun for every category this sport has.  Nothing is modified for speed as prior to discovering this I had no reason to do that.

OK glad that rifle is one you aleady had and not one you went out and purchased to shoot cowboy.  I do highly recommend that you attend a local match soon to see how things work in person.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Well, as long as we are "interpreting" the rules...

From the Handbook.

"Movement is not allowed with a loaded round under the hammer of any firearm.  Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule.  Whenever a shooter has a loaded round under the hammer of a firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground.  The first violation will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty.  The second violation will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment.  Note: Shuffling the feet to maintain balance or adjust the shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually change location." 

To reiterate...

Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule.

I "interpret" this to mean that the rule will never be enforced.   

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

14 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

...Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule.

I "interpret" this to mean that the rule will never be enforced.   

It took me a moment to get it.   Kind of ticks me off, too.  Lots of stuff doesn't get called but especially that.  Fortunately it does get called in CAS.  After 20 years, that gave me my first SDQ when I moved with the shotgun closed and still had one live one in it.

[Shawnee Hills]

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

This kinda tries to explain the "traveling" rule(s) for basketball...with excuses for lack of enforcement and "preferential treatment" noted.

https://justlovebasketball.com/how-many-steps-is-a-travel/

All it does is add to the confusion...IMO.