12ga/45 colt/CS APP- FFFg help

[Leroy Luck]

Just got my first case of APP FFFg powder today. Not familiar with loading black powder. Looking for some help with load data. 
 

I’m using 45 colts in my rifle and 45 cowboy specials in my pistols. Using 180gr cast boolits. The easy thing to do is fill the case with powder. But I think it’s going to cause unnecessary recoil/smoke/noise. 
 

My typical 12ga loads are 12-12.5grs Promo, CB0178-12 grey clay buster wad, and 7/8oz shot in a AA hull. 
 

I’ve been told that black powder shot shells are usually loaded “square”. Something about the powder and shot charges being identical by volume. 
 

I’m trying to use what I already have on hand for shot shell components and don’t know where to begin. 
 

Any advice?

[Leroy Luck]

I did happen to come across a post from Oct 2021 with a comment from a fellow that had 35grains by weight with the same components I’m already using. It loads and crimps nicely. Fires and makes smoke. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Here is APP's cartridge loading instructions: http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/loading.html.  Don't fill cases full of APP and then compress it.  I would not bother using a filler with cowboy specials but certainly would with the 45 Colts.   (There is a smoke standard for SASS black powder ammo that your loads need to meet.)  Cream of wheat, foam backer rod and tumbling media are common fillers.  If your SG loads lack knockdown power try TGT-12 wads.

 

Welcome to the Darkside.  Do you know how to lube your firearms for shooting APP?

[Leroy Luck]

12 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Do you know how to lube your firearms for shooting APP?

 
No I don’t. 
 

I have read a little bit about APP and saw the load data in a google search. 

[Rattlesnake Slim]

45 minutes ago, Leroy Luck said:

I did happen to come across a post from Oct 2021 with a comment from a fellow that had 35grains by weight with the same components I’m already using. It loads and crimps nicely. Fires and makes smoke. 

 

This will work nicely. Also you should load about half a box at 40 grains for those stubborn knockdowns, but you won't need more than that for anything cowboy.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Look for 'Borebutter' for gun lube.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Real black powder and the subs all produce much hotter flames than smokeless powder.  These hot flames interact with petroleum-based lubes making them gummy.  This can bind your firearms, especially revolvers.  Thoroughly degrease your firearms and then re-lube with a black powder compatible lube like Ballistol.  Borebutter is great on base pins.

 

Some other things to consider:

1) APP fouling will build up on the face of your revolver cylinders, perhaps causing them to bind during a match.  Be prepared to clean this off during a match.  Ordinary water cleans well.

2) Wash your brass soon after shooting.  APP fouling can tarnish brass.

3) The base of plastic wads will partially melt when you fire your shotgun.  Remove it by spraying window cleaner down the bore.  Wait a few minutes then push a wadded paper towel down the bore with a rod.  The plastic should be pushed out.  It often looks like a black snake skin.

4) Any shotgun primer works OK with APP.  I currently use Cheddite 209s.

5) Be prepared for heat damage to the star crimp of your AA hulls.  I toss my hulls after one firing with black powder or the subs.  I often load mine several times with smokeless powder and then a final loading with black powder.

 

None of this is difficult.  But having revolvers with cylinders that won't turn or shotgun shells that won't hold shot makes for a bad day.

[Scarlett]

Thanks for your order!  You’re gonna love shooting FC!! I don’t do anything special with my guns as far as lube. I use lubed bullets in my rifle (so I know what is APP) and coated bullets in my pistols (I don’t offer lubed 32s). I use Ballistol.  I do not like using water on my guns - the cylinder face can be wiped off with any disinfectant wipe - cheapest you can find. Oil after it dries with Balistol or whatever you’d like. I use brush and swab after EVERY stage in my shotgun chambers. I roll crimp and use fiber wads to prevent the nasty “snot snake”. 
 

There’s a gazillion ways to do what we are doing. Find what works for you. If I can be of assistance, let me know! I’m quicker to respond to emails bulletsbyscarlett@gmail.com

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Sedalia Dave]

My APP 12 ga load

 

Gun Club or STS hulls

35 grains by weight of 3F APP

CB0178-12 wad

7/8 oz shot

209 primer of choice.

 

For 45 CS and 45 Colt load with enough APP till it just touches the base of the bullet when seated. 

 

In your rifle you will not notice the recoil and a full load will reduce the amount of blow by.  If you try and download 45 Colt the blow by will be excessive and will gum up the action of your rifle.

 

When shooting APP, powder coated bullets work the best.

 

I use Mobil 1 full synthetic red grease where needed. For oil I use Ballistol.

If the action gets a little sticky during a match, spritz with a mixture of 10% Ballistol and 90% water.

To clean I use hot soapy water followed by straight Ballistol sprayed into the action and then I wipe everything down with a rag lightly coated with Ballistol.

Edited April 13 by Sedalia Dave

[Diamond Jake]

I use Lee dippers to load my APP ammo  In 45 Colt I use 1.6cc of APP topped with .7cc of cornmeal, then a 200 g coated bullet.  No need for cards or wadding between powder and filler.  I used to punch out cork wads to use instead of filler, but the filler is easier.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I have to admire all you dark side people! Although I have considered it, it's way too much work for me. I'll just stick to using it in my Hawkin rifles.

[Matthew Duncan]

17 hours ago, Leroy Luck said:

….it’s going to cause unnecessary recoil/smoke/noise. 

Then why are you using APP and 45 Colt if’n y’all didn’t want recoil, smoke and noise?  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Lots of good stuff.  MORE good stuff.

 

SHOTGUN I load All Brass Magtech hulls.  35 to 40Gr 2F APP.  WITH 3F, I'd suggest 35Gr 3F.  One ounce shot payload.  I like the BP Spitfire Wad for a One Ounce Payload.  For Clean up I prefer PAM.  Acronym for equal parts Hydrogen Peroxide, Denatured Alcohol and Murphy Oil Soap.  Small squirt bottle.  Squirt the bore.  Squirt a quarter sheet Blue (lowes) paper towel on a brass brush and out comes the Snake Skin.

 

45 Colt.  Doesn't matter what you do, you WILL get Blow-By unless you anneal your cases.  Annealing WILL eliminate Blow-By and you can shoot 45 Colt with 12 - 13Gr 3F APP and Cream-0-Wheat filler with 180 - 200Gr bullets all day, no Blow-By.  for Clean-Up, I use PAM (see above).  Other suggestion for a clean running rifle is to fire form 44-40 brass to 45 Colt.  Works a treat - No Blow-By

 

C45S, 12 - 13Gr 3F APP, any bullet.  Clean-up with PAM.  Bullets for both 45 Colt and C45S can be BP lubed.  Crayon Lubed or Not Lubed.  APP doesn't care.  APP makes it own lube.  You may need to wipe the Cylinder Face once in a while with a rag damp with PAM.

 

I clean my Shotgun, My Rifles and my Handguns with PAM.  I don't like Balistol for anything beyond softening stiff leather boots.  For lubrication, parts that slide, MOBIL 1 Grease.  A tube will last a lifetime.  For parts that turn, MOBIL 1 Motor Oil.  Mobil 1 is straight synthetic and plays well with Black Powder and APP.  Very well indeed.

 

Brass is going to tarnish with BP or Subs.  Unless you're OCD about shiny new looking brass, don't worry about it.  You don't need to lug a jug of anything around at a match.  Just toss your brass inna bag and when you get home, give it bath in water with a goodly amount of White Vinegar for about 20 minute and rinse.  You don't really want to use the 4% White Vinegar used for salads.  Go to Lowes or Ace or look on line for 45% vinegar.  A little more expensive but does good job on yer brass.  Then I just toss mine into my DILLON tumbler with Crushed Walnut for about 45 minutes.

 

Nothing Hard nor complicated.  Keep it Simple.

[Diamond Jake]

10 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

...Then I just toss mine into my DILLON tumbler with Crushed Walnut for about 45 minutes.

 

Nothing Hard nor complicated.  Keep it Simple.

 

Do you dry the brass between the wash and the Walnut tumbling?

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

3 hours ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

Do you dry the brass between the wash and the Walnut tumbling?

I do.  I lay the brass out in the sun as soon as I drain the water/vinegar solution (as mentioned by CC).  This is often at a match away from home.  I place the brass in plastic trays under my travel trailer on rainy days.  Sometimes the trays are under my gun cart in my pickup truck as I drive home.  The brass gets tumbled later - often weeks later.  Don't leave your brass wet for many days with spent primers in place.  They can corrode in place and be difficult to remove.

 

I'm not sure one can tumble wet brass in walnut media.  I think it needs to be a dry process.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Diamond Jake,

 

Well heck, I left that part out.  Figured it was a "gimmie."  Yes.  I do dry the brass between the "bath" and the "Tumbler."  To dry, I use an old rimmed cookie sheet, stick the brass inna oven on 180° fer an hour.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Here's some great information:

https://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I’ve been using APP for several years now in .38 Special and 12 gauge and over the last couple of years in .44-40 and Cowboy .45 Special.

 

In .38 Special I use a 158 grain bullet which fills up more of the case than the lighter bullets.  Load powder to the base of the bullet and you are good.  In .44-40 and C45S I don’t fill to capacity and use caulk backer rod as a filler.

 

My guns can run at least six stages without any care.  I do wet tumble my brass within a day or two of shooting to keep them from looking grungy.

 

Cleaning guns is easy.  PAM on the revolvers and rifle, clear Windex on the shotgun bores with the folded paper towel trick.  Lightly oil with Ballistol after cleaning.

[Scarlett]

15 hours ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

Do you dry the brass between the wash and the Walnut tumbling?

Yes

[Bull Skinner]

Why do it the hard way? Go to 44 WCF or 38 WCF and save yourself all the muss and fuss described in the previous posts you’ll need to do with 45 Colt. I’ve loaded 45 Colt and 44 WCF with real BP and every sub made. Believe me 44-40 is so much easier and cleaner you won’t believe it. 

 

[DeaconKC]

Yes, yes, yes, we all know the Dash cartridges are the perfect answer to all black powder problems...

Maybe actually give useful advice to someone who already has invested hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars on his existing guns and needs help with those guns. Quit telling us to go buy new guns! Unless you are going to spend YOUR money to buy him some new guns, quit telling us to go buy new guns!

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

On 4/14/2024 at 6:12 AM, Diamond Jake said:

 

Do you dry the brass between the wash and the Walnut tumbling?

 You've had several answers saying that yes they dry the brass.  But they didn't say why, because if you put wet brass in the walnut or corncob it can make the media pack inside the cases.  At least that's what it did to me one time many years ago when my brass was still damp.

 

After rinsing, I usually just spread the brass on a newspaper sheet on the back porch.  In colder weather, which isn't that often around here, I'll spread them out in a low wide cardboard box and let them sit overnight in the house.  Haven't had a need to dry brass so fast that I would use the oven.

[Bull Skinner]

1 hour ago, DeaconKC said:

Yes, yes, yes, we all know the Dash cartridges are the perfect answer to all black powder problems...

Maybe actually give useful advice to someone who already has invested hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars on his existing guns and needs help with those guns. Quit telling us to go buy new guns! Unless you are going to spend YOUR money to buy him some new guns, quit telling us to go buy new guns!

Well Now aren’t you full of helpful advice.
 

He said he didn’t know anything about loading BP or subs so I gave him my best advice. He really only needs a rifle in 44 WCF. I load for 5 calibers for my 5 sets of pistols. When you’ve been playing this game for several years you accumulate a few pistols. I only have rifles in one caliber, 44 WCF. I used to have a 73 in 45 colt but traded for a 44-40 because it makes BP shooting much much more enjoyable. I’m sure he can trade rifles for a relatively modest sum. If he can’t afford a couple hundred bucks to trade rifles, how is he gonna afford thousands of rounds of ammo or the equipment and components to load his own plus the shooting fees and gas to drive to matches?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

26 minutes ago, Bull Skinner said:

... He really only needs a rifle in 44 WCF. ...

Actually, he really only needs BRASS in 44wcf.  As Coffinmaker mentioned, you can fireform 44wcf brass to .45 Colt and the thin brass works just as well to seal the 45 chamber as it did the 44 chamber.  I've heard of this for years, and considered it briefly but then I already shoot BP in 44-40, 32-20, and .38, so I even though I shot mucho BP in my .45 and .44 Spcl rifles years ago, I only put smokeless in them these days.  

 

Although regarding fireforming 44wcf, I'm wondering how many will get split in the process?

 

And since I don't plan on shooting the .45 with BP, I've never even considered annealing and then keeping those segregated from pistol brass, etc.

 

But like Bull says, if you are in this game for a while you will be getting more guns.  So consider a dash caliber for your next rifle.  Also, I can understand how a full case of powder can be a lot of recoil in a .45, but if you are also concerned that it will be too loud and smokey, well then I feel sorry for you. 

 

 

 

 

[Erasmus]

I load black and APP (Shooters World really). I load APP in .44 mag for a Rossi 92 rifle and whatever is handy (black or APP) in brass magtech hulls. My load for .44 mag is 2.2CCs of APP under a 205 Bear Creek bullet. It shoots well enough for CAS. In the brass hulls I use an adjustable dipper adjusted or 7/8 oz of lead to dip a powder charge, then a nitro card, a fiber wad with a swipe of lube on the bottom, 7/8oz shot, and finally an overshot card glued in with Elmers. So far no problems knocking down targets.

 

I don't shoot .45s for CAS but occasionally make some APP loads, same recipe as the .44 mag, but with a .45 caliber 205 RNFP.

Edited April 16 by Erasmus

[Leroy Luck]

I did find loads that worked and got everything loaded up. Had to get the wife’s approval since she’s the one shooting them. 

[Griff]

I'm Gonna be real lazy & just say plus 1 to CC.  Except I don't use chemicals in my gun cleaning... Plain ol' hot water works a treat!   And I wet tumble, started a little over a year ago and found that I like it.  Good luck and welcome to the wonderful world of BP.