Erasmus

I was quoting from the SDS from Shooter's World for APP: https://shootersworldpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/MSDS-Download.pdf It's from 2016 (as per the pdf, but 2022 as per the link), there may be a newer one? Maybe they have a different formula from 'actual' APP (it does list the trade name as American Pioneer Powder)? Maybe they don't (or didn't need to at the time) list 'inactive ingredients'?

This is an absolute aside from this thread but, this got me to wondering about the composition of these things (and the original question is well answered at this point) APP is (according to the MSDS) - and is not self igniting Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Charcoal Pyrodex is (according to the MSDS) - has an auto ignition temp of 740F Charcoal Sulfer Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Graphite Goex is (according to the MSDS and as expected for being real black) - has an auto ignition temp of 392 - 867F Charcoal Sulfur Potassium Nitrate APP is fully miscible in water, Goex has 'good' solubility in water, and Pyrodex is partially soluble in water. I'm not a chemist, but I find this interesting.

By full length resize, do you mean taper the finished shell? Or full length resize the empty hull? Because the latter really only matters when you're first using unknown hulls (as it sizes the steel or case head) and doesn't affect post-loading mushrooming or swelling. That is to say my Sizemaster will ensure all of my heavy duck loads run in every gun, but don't believe it'll prevent a mushroomed shell. Something like the "Cowboy Taper Tool" might help fix a mushroomed shell however (If I'm understanding it correctly).

My Garmin is coming out this weekend for some muzzleloader load dev. If it doesn't balk with mid charges of black and patched round ball, I don't think it'll have a problem. So far it's tracked all my black powder, all my .223, and even my .177 pellet rifle. This new generation of radar chronographs is pretty great (Athlon recently released theirs).

While you can't say with any certainty how much 1cc of any given black powder will weigh; I've found that between Swiss 2F, Goex 2F, and Schuetzen 2F it's all close enough to 15 that I just call it 15 grains. I weigh my charges for long range to ensure consistency however.

Mine's been working great, far more reliable with black than my old screen chrono that kept telling me a mild load of 2F in my .45-70 was making 1700 fps.

I shoot APP and real black quite often, my experiences are perhaps a little different than some of the folks here. The only time I've seen rust in my bore was from using APP, cleaning with PAM, and going back to check my gun the next day. I've left my black powder guns overnight after a weekend shoot and cleaned them the next evening with no problems. I've shot compressed loads and uncompressed loads in .45-70, compressed loads had bad standard deviations. The instructions are correct, load to the bottom of the bullet (that's where I've seen the best accuracy in .45-70 and .38-55). Clean up is no easier or harder than real black powder. Being able to use coated bullets and not have to deal with sticky lube when reloading is the biggest upside for APP. The dies stay cleaner, your hands stay cleaner, and if you drop a round it's not going to come back with a bunch of dirt stuck to it. APP (shooters world most often for me) does seem to clump pretty bad, but I just shake up the bottle. I did, however, have it bridge in a powder dropper while I as cleaning it. I thought I got all the powder out but it turns out it just bridged and there was a slug of powder left. It sat in my garage for a couple of months and turned into a hard plug that I had to dig out with picks. If I didn't have thousands of coated bullets for reloading smokeless for my wife, I'd just use real black. If I was shooting lots of cartridge rounds I'd go with coated bullets and APP, but I mostly shoot frontiersman. The only time I've seen multiple hangfires from one cap and ball pistol was when my buddy ran out of real black and used APP, anecdotal to be sure, but not something I'd risk at a bigger match.

The quick and dirty answer is: Get a shotgun reloading manual (the Lyman manual is fine). Take stock of the hulls you have or have easy/cheap access to. Find a local supplier for reclaimed shot. Look up your hull in the manual, find a wad/primer/powder combo that works for a light 7/8oz load with a powder you can buy (hopefully locally) in bulk. Buy that stuff. Get a used MEC 600 jr (or better) that's already set up for 12 gauge. Read the first few chapters in the book, read the instructions for your press, start loading. Beyond that it's really finding a load that'll be cheap to load, easy to obtain components, is light recoiling, and heavy enough to knock down the plates and switch your barrels if you have a single trigger SxS. You can order most components, but things like primers and powder have a hazmat fee attached to them; and lead is heavy. So whatever you can get locally may trump anything else from a cost perspective. Personally I shoot black and I'm a weirdo using brass hulls. When I do load smokeless 12 gauge it's bismuth hunting loads on my sizemaster. I'm set up to press together a bunch of 20 gauge for cowboy shooting, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

For whatever I'm shooting (.45 LC, .45-70, or .38 spc) if I find Hornady brass I just put it aside and save it or give it to someone that uses it. The .45-70 is just fine for people shooting single shots. They can trim all their brass to match and rarely get their brass mixed up with anyone else.

Just to close the loop I did as I said I would. I fired the unlubed Bear Creek Supply bullet loaded with real black last in the stage and swabbed my barrel when I got back to the cart. I didn't have any problems, but of course it's not a great test either since it's only one round and then I'm swapping with a moist mop anyway. And I did make a lot of smoke. I estimate I burned a little over 1 lb of 2F this weekend over 12 stages with a pair of 45 colts, a 45-70, and a 12 gauge. And just to keep the thread on track, APP and coated bullets works just fine.

I only made up 11 of them before realizing my mistake, and I have 12 stages to shoot this weekend. I figure if I can shoot the unlubed round as the last round of the stage that'll give me a chance to run a mop (and maybe a brush) down the bore after each stage. I figure it'll work, or it won't. Either way I get to make smoke!

I might need new cylinders... I loaded these in .45-70!

I'm not the person you're asking but.... I'm about to use some Bear Creek Supply bullets over real black with no lube completely on accident. I meant to load APP but accidentally loaded Schuetzen and then some filler. Rather than waste the powder and bullets by pulling down I figure I'll just shoot them last in the stage and swab the bore afterward. Who knows, maybe it won't work.

The short answer is yes. The long answer is, as much as I like shooting real black powder, my wife likes to shoot smokeless. So in an effort to have fewer things to keep in stock we have a BUNCH of coated bullets, and very few black powder lubed bullets. So for simplicity's sake I've been shooting hi-tek (or Bear Creek) coated bullets with APP (or Shooter's World really, but same thing) for a while and haven't had a problem. I prefer real black in my cap and ball guns (which is what I shoot most) and am indifferent about my shotguns, but I load APP and coated bullets for my rifle just because I have thousands of coated projectiles. On the downside it doesn't smell the same and doesn't make the same flame. On the up side it makes plenty of smoke and everything stays cleaner while reloading (your dies, fingers, etc). The idea of it being 'non-corrosive' is a misnomer at best (hydrophilic residue still exists in the bore after shooting); and it doesn't make its own lube, it just doesn't make terrible hard fouling if no lube is used.

Good catch Jasper! I'll see you there!