Schuetzen BP

[Frontier Lone Rider]

We had always used GOEX fffg until Hogdon decided to stop production.  So, we bought some Schuetzen fffg Black Powder to continue loading.

 

My Question:  How do they compare?  Should one use the same Load, add more powder or less powder to get the same results as with the GOEX?

 

Thank you in advance for your advice.

 

Frontier Lone Rider

Edited April 1 by Frontier Lone Rider

[Jack Spade]

Goes is available again.  Just saw some at Maine Powder house and other online retailers. 

Edited April 1 by Jack Spade
Changed info

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

12 minutes ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

We had always used GOEX fffg until Hogdon decided to stop production.  So, we bought some Schuetzen fffg Black Powder to continue loading.

 

My Question:  How do they compare?  Should one use the same Load, add more powder or less powder to get the same results as with the GOEX?

 

Thank you in advance for your advice.

 

Frontier Lone Rider

What is your intended use?  Long range or CAS main match ammo?

[Frontier Lone Rider]

CAS main match.

[Sedalia Dave]

For CAS main match there is no discernable difference.

[Blackwater 53393]

For CAS competition, I’ve found them to be directly interchangeable.  All else being equal, I find no difference in performance.

[Frontier Lone Rider]

22 minutes ago, Jack Spade said:

Goes is available again.  Just saw some at Maine Powder house and other online retailers. 

I know ESTES is supposed to make it available in the future, once they have met their distributors demands.  But it is not readily available yet and I already have the Schuetzen.

[Frontier Lone Rider]

Thank you for your responses.  That is what I was hoping to hear.

[Jack Spade]

19 minutes ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

I know ESTES is supposed to make it available in the future, once they have met their distributors demands.  But it is not readily available yet and I already have the Schuetzen.

I just checked several online suppliers, Maine Powder House and Powder Valley just to name two and both have Goex in all granulations in stock and ready to ship.  I realize you already have the scheutzen, but Goex is now available.

Edited April 1 by Jack Spade

[Lead Monger]

When I compared GOEX, Schuetzen and Swiss 3F in my Uberti 44 Army’s this is what I found. 
Using a 25 grain spout on a flask dropped 26.9g of Swiss. 27.2g of Schuetzen and 25.4g of GOEX. The average velocity for 6 shots from a 44 Army using round ball, lubed over toe top was 863 fps for GOEX, 759 fps for Schuetzen and 987 fps for Swiss. Accuracy was generally the same for all shots. The Schuetzen left the most fouling in the chambers and Swiss left the least. 

[Warden Callaway]

I didn't sleep at Motel 8 last night. My black powder experience is limited to Grafs and Goex.  But I did dabble in making black powder. I learned enough to realize it's better to buy if you can.  It's a labor intensive dirty job not to mention it could be hazards.  But.  The first batch I just screened.  It turned out "fluffy" and light in weight.  It didn't have much power.   Then I made a batch and pucked it. That is compressed it with a press into cookies.  The dried, crushed and screened. The results were the powder was heavier by volume compared to the first batch.  But still not as heavy as Goex per equal volume.  It worked but not as well. 

 

Conclusion,  if you weigh equal volume of each powder, you'll find the relative power for each. You can adjust up or down the volume from one to another to appropriate the performance. 

 

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Hodgen didn't stop production. 

The Goex plant blew up.....

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I don’t understand “same load”. This isn’t smokeless with all the variations in powder recipes. BP is load by VOLUME so the powder contacts the base of the bullet plus a bit of compression. That’s it. Don’t overthink it. You can use any BP Load by volume. 

[Frontier Lone Rider]

11 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Hodgen didn't stop production. 

The Goex plant blew up.....

This is the 1st time I have heard that.  I understood that Hogdon simply got tired of jumping through all of the hoops from Uncle Sam.

 

Georgia Arms burned last Summer and Kinematics blew up before that, but I had not heard that about the GOEX Plant. 

 

I believe ESTES even bought some of Hogdon's equipment in order to start production.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

12 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Hodgen didn't stop production. 

The Goex plant blew up.....

Four times in six years according to an article from 2004 I read.  No wonder Hodgdon gave up the business.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

1 hour ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

This is the 1st time I have heard that.  I understood that Hogdon simply got tired of jumping through all of the hoops from Uncle Sam.

 

Georgia Arms burned last Summer and Kinematics blew up before that, but I had not heard that about the GOEX Plant. 

 

I believe ESTES even bought some of Hogdon's equipment in order to start production.

American Pioneer Powder in Whitewater, CO blew up a few years back too.  Manufacturing explosives and energetic materials is a hazardous business and most facilities eventually have accidents.  Many operations are done remotely.

 

Uncle Sam wants a domestic source of black powder as it is a part of some military munitions.

[J-BAR #18287]

I have used both Goex and Schuetzen in SASS Frontiersman category.  Goex (years ago) produced much more fouling than Schuetzen, so I stuck with Schuetzen.  Maybe more recently produced Goex will be cleaner.  Probably worth experimenting at the range.  It does not surprise me that Swiss is better than Schuetzen or Goex, as most think it's the best powder made today.  Historically it has also been the most expensive. 
 

You pays your money and you takes your chance!

[Eyesa Horg]

I found Schuetzen cleaner as well.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Any powder that sends a slug down range will be GOOD ENOUGH for a SASS main match.   I've even shot Elephant and Kik.  Which is close to using mule dung.

 

Schuetzen will be much better.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[German Jim]

On 4/1/2024 at 2:03 PM, Frontier Lone Rider said:

We had always used GOEX fffg until Hogdon decided to stop production.  So, we bought some Schuetzen fffg Black Powder to continue loading.

 

My Question:  How do they compare?  Should one use the same Load, add more powder or less powder to get the same results as with the GOEX?

 

Thank you in advance for your advice.

 

Frontier Lone Rider

Whatever volume you were using for GOEX in a particular cartridge, use the same volume for Schuetzen in the same cartridge.  I used elephant until I couldn't get it anymore.  I think the factory blew up.  I then used Schuetzen but found Diamondback.  It was cheaper.  Diamondback went away and I tried Grafs which was Schuetzen with a Grafs label.  Then Grafs started using GOEX and sticking their label on the bottle.  Now they've switched back to Schuetzen, but I've switched to just Schuetzen.  GOEX seemed dirtier (MHO), so I'm sticking with the Schuetzen.

[mean gun mark]

Goex and schutzen i use interchangeably with either one. Have done so for years now, especially for cowboy main match loads.    Same with magnum or regular primers. 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I have been using Schuetzen for many years now. As others have reported it tends to burn a little bit cleaner than Goex. I believe this is because Schuetzen uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex. I used to use FFg in shotgun and 45-70, and FFFg in 45 Colt and 44-40. These days I use FFg in everything, just to keep things simple. Expect to get somewhere between 60 fps to 100 fps less velocity with FFg than FFFg, all other things (like how much you use) being equal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As others have said,  just fill up the case and compress it a little bit, I like to compress between 1/16" - 1/8". You will never notice much velocity difference in CAS. Long range, precision 45-70 is a different story.

 

 

I made up this handy chart years ago. It shows the actual weight of various powders I have used over the years with the standard volumes in Cubic Centimeters that I use most often in cartridges. 2.2CC is what I use in 45 Colt and 44-40. Note that 2.2CC of Elephant FFg (no longer available) weighed significantly more than 2.2CC of Scheutzen.

 

 

 

 

Again,  just pour in enough so that it is compressed by the bullet by about 1/16" - 1/8" and don't worry about the velocity.

[Blackwater 53393]

Thanks , Driftwood!!

 

Long time no see you here!! Always glad you’re around!!

[Kid Rich]

16 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

I have been using Schuetzen for many years now. As others have reported it tends to burn a little bit cleaner than Goex. I believe this is because Schuetzen uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex. I used to use FFg in shotgun and 45-70, and FFFg in 45 Colt and 44-40. These days I use FFg in everything, just to keep things simple. Expect to get somewhere between 60 fps to 100 fps less velocity with FFg than FFFg, all other things (like how much you use) being equal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As others have said,  just fill up the case and compress it a little bit, I like to compress between 1/16" - 1/8". You will never notice much velocity difference in CAS. Long range, precision 45-70 is a different story.

 

 

I made up this handy chart years ago. It shows the actual weight of various powders I have used over the years with the standard volumes in Cubic Centimeters that I use most often in cartridges. 2.2CC is what I use in 45 Colt and 44-40. Note that 2.2CC of Elephant FFg (no longer available) weighed significantly more than 2.2CC of Scheutzen.

 

 

 

 

Again,  just pour in enough so that it is compressed by the bullet by about 1/16" - 1/8" and don't worry about the velocity.

Just a guess but the Elephant probably weighs more than the Schuetzen because of the fines in it. When I shot a lot of long range ML we used to sock the powder to get rid of the fines. Also made it shoot a lot cleaner.

kR

PS good to hear from you Driftwood.