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Would you? non-combatant


Alpo

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https://www.wideners.com/blog/praise-the-lord-and-pass-the-ammunition/?utm_source=Widener's+Specials&utm_campaign=b70a0a5a0b-NL_Specials_*|DATE|*_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4dbd7b7ce3-b70a0a5a0b-67448945

 

This is an interesting article about the phrase " praise the Lord and pass the ammunition".

 

Pearl Harbor. The cruiser is being repaired, and the power is off, so the elevators for moving the ammunition from the magazine to the guns no workie workie.

 

The chaplain grabs passing sailors and forms a bucket line, moving the 100 pound shells up out of the magazine to the guns.

 

It says that he was going to join in the line, but as a chaplain - a non-combatant - he was not allowed to fire a gun or handle war material.

 

Now if I'm a non-combatant, and as such I am not allowed to shoot at the enemy, but the enemy is shooting at me, I'm going to pick up a gun.

 

Sort of one of those "tried by 12 rather than carried by six" things. Would I rather be court-martialed for shooting back, or shot dead standing there turning the other cheek?

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20 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Now if I'm a non-combatant, and as such I am not allowed to shoot at the enemy, but the enemy is shooting at me, I'm going to pick up a gun.

 

Fr. Michael of blessed memory, retired as a USAF Colonel after 30 years as a chaplain, told the story of one of his government paid vacations in Vietnam.  The Lunar New Year festivities were in full swing and the base he was at promised to soon be overwhelmed with visitors from the north, very intent on vigorous partying.  The base commander told him, "Padre, you need a rifle."  He, gentle soul that he was, refused.  He went to the kitchen and picked up a knife, just to prepare some snacks in case the visitors were overly hungry.  His theory being that the knife was more defensive than offensive.  Even so, if he had taken a life in self defense he would have been defrocked.  

It depend on what oath you value more.

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I had a Priest, who as an Ordained Deacon, served as a medic in WWII, doing medic things and giving comfort where he could.

When the aid station he was working at was overrun by infiltrators, who started to shoot the wounded and the medical staff, wearing Red Cross arm bands, he picked up a weapon and killed the enemy who were attacking his patients.

I learned this story when I entered his study, in the Manse, for help with my French lessons and found him cleaning a captured pistol.

He said he carried it, concealed, for the rest of the war. Just in case.

I guess you might consider him a Warrior Priest.

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It's been a long while since I read it, but the laws that govern non-combatants only apply if both sides have signed the applicable treaties.  I've read of medics in WWII in the Pacific Theater that carried sidearms because they knew the Japanese didn't care about the Red Cross Brassard or the Geneva Conventions  and were not signatories to the treaties.

Edited by Chantry
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No one can really say unless they’ve been there. I have not so I can’t say.

As to clergy, as in medics, their calling, duty and devotion extend beyond a call to arms, and it’s much needed.

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i guess thats why id not make a good padre , when those guests come calling im shooting back , i recall the nuns askin about any of us feeling the "calling" but i also remember not hearing anyone calling but my folks at the time , besides after watchin how the nuns and priests behaved i never wanted anything to do with that life , 

 

as a kid it seemed their main goal in life was to ,make ours miserable , i did get a good education in spite of that , later in life i found them more agreeable to associate with but still no "calling" in my life , 

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When Dad was sunk on the California at Pearl, I don't ever remember hearing him mention anything about chaplains.
They were too busy having their guts and brains splattered all over the decks.

 

Edited by bgavin
typos
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On 11/27/2023 at 4:19 PM, Chantry said:

It's been a long while since I read it, but the laws that govern non-combatants only apply if both sides have signed the applicable treaties.  I've read of medics in WWII in the Pacific Theater that carried sidearms because they knew the Japanese didn't care about the Red Cross Brassard or the Geneva Conventions  and were not signatories to the treaties.

Had a neighbor who was a WWII Pacific Theater nurse.
She said she wore a .45 automatic as regularly as her trousers.

 

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It depends on why I'm a non-combatant.

 

Medic/sick bay attendant?  Go ahead and man the guns just so it doesn't take me away from my primary duty.

 

Medical Doctor?  I'd have taken an oath to do no harm.  Which would cause me to carefully weigh exactly where more harm might be done.   Is more harm done if I turn my back on the oath I took as a doctor, leave those who need my skills, and man the guns?  Or is more harm done if I stick to my oath, tend to the wounded, and ignore the guns?

 

If a Priest or Deacon, either Roman Catholic or Orthodox, I'll be defrocked if I take a life.   If I were the last line between the enemy and those under my spiritual care and the only way to save them was to man the gun....I truly don't know what l would do.  Right now I lean on the side of manning the guns in order to save lives.

Edited by Subdeacon Joe
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1 hour ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

"God said "Tho shalt not kill."  He was a little less specific about shooting knees"   The Shepherd.  Firefly

 

Zoë: “Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin’?”

Book: “Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.”

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Anybody besides me wonder why they put so many Catholics in the movie? That sub arc was not in the book.

 

But Rafe tells Mrs Rodney that he was educated by the Jesuits - his parents wanted him to be a priest. And the old guy, that carried the Evans because he needed all that ammunition since he was such a lousy shot - when Rafe first walked into the saloon and gave a toast to Charles Rodney, the old guy drank his drink and then crossed himself.

 

I got nothing against Catholics - don't give me wrong - but there was nothing about Catholics in the book so why did they put it in the movie?

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18 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

 

"Simon: I don't know. I never shot anyone before. Book: I was theresonI'm fair sure you haven't shot anyone yet"

 

My computer searching skills are somewhat (completely?) lacking.  I couldn't find that clip or the exact quote to save my life.

Thanks for helping me out.

 

Angus

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22 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

My computer searching skills are somewhat (completely?) lacking.  I couldn't find that clip or the exact quote to save my life.

Thanks for helping me out.

 

Angus

 

Thanks.  The clip was fairly easy, searched "firefly kneecap."

 

The quote, after a few false starts because I was searching for what Simon Tam said, I found by searching "Shepard Book quotes."

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3 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Thanks.  The clip was fairly easy, searched "firefly kneecap."

 

The quote, after a few false starts because I was searching for what Simon Tam said, I found by searching "Shepard Book quotes."

 

I tried "Firefly Shepherd quote knees" and a few different similar things.  I didn't try "kneecaps" anything and I guess I was spelling Shepard wrong.  None of the quotes I found were the one I was looking for.  Oh, well.

 

Angus

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On 11/28/2023 at 8:09 AM, bgavin said:

When Dad was sunk on the California at Pearl, I don't ever remember hearing him mention anything about chaplains.

So happens I met a woman two days ago whose dad had been on the California at Pearl. It was hard to believe at first, because she couldn't have been out of her 40s; very attractive and young-looking anyway.

 

I asked about it and she said she was the youngest daughter of a second marriage, and that her oldest brother was 80, so that fit. Shipmate of your dad, it seems.

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41 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

I tried "Firefly Shepherd quote knees" and a few different similar things.  I didn't try "kneecaps" anything and I guess I was spelling Shepard wrong.  None of the quotes I found were the one I was looking for.  Oh, well.

 

Angus

All you'd have to do is search for Firefly Quotes and you'll find a LOT of good ones.

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Damn engineer in me saw the OP.

 

While the King James version is quite explicit regarding "kill," which is clearly in reference (context) to other people, later research and better translation suggests "murder" is a better choice.

 

Thou shalt not wrongly kill another.

 

There is Exodus 22:2-3, and Texas law embodies this truth, that killing a thief in the night does not cause blood guilt, but doing so in the day does. I do not read this this literally, I take it allegorically. In the night means without knowledge that it is merely a property crime, but is a threat to life.

 

The Bible clearly expresses a right to self defense. It does so in so many passages. Luke 22.:36 instructs to sell your vestments and buy a sword! For the apostles were about to embark on journeys to spread the word and they would be subject to attack. No blood guilt for self defense. 

 

Even earlier, Luke 11:21 informs ones property is safe when guarded with arms.

 

For who is really a peacemaker? Mathew 5:9 says they are Sons of God, And I do not believe victims make peace. Pacemakers take up the sword against evil, they do not murder, and they do not carry guilt for righteous (rightful) violence.

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4 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

So happens I met a woman two days ago whose dad had been on the California at Pearl. It was hard to believe at first, because she couldn't have been out of her 40s; very attractive and young-looking anyway.

 

I asked about it and she said she was the youngest daughter of a second marriage, and that her oldest brother was 80, so that fit. Shipmate of your dad, it seems.

hard for me to believe that the WWII generation is going gone - my dad would have been 100 last week , he died in 2000 , i lost my uncle a few years back - korean vet , they too are now in their 80s , its now our generation thats going , i just lost my very dear friend and 3tour VN vet , 

seems like only years ago when i was a kid that the last civil war vets died , i didnt expect to live this long and now im seeing why without realizing it back then , glad im here , but not real happy with where here is 

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