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1887 shotgun model questions


Johnny Knight

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Since I've been enjoying shooting classic, I wanted to ask a few questions regarding 1887 shotgun options.  I know the recommendation is to get the gun to Lassiter for the two drop mod, but which gun to start with?  In chatting with Lassiter, he's a fan of the Chiappa's, but also mentioned that the IAC's could be a good starting point.  The question is which IAC's are considered the 'good' ones vs the not so good?  If I understand correctly, the PW 87's are at the bottom of the heap, but in looking at the various articles and forum posts, it seems there were some coyote cap editions, some which were marked as such, and others that weren't.  There also appears to have been some that came out of china with a two drop mod already done.  Are these the unmarked coyote cap editions?  Or am misunderstanding how many iterations there were of this gun?  Are there particular years/serial numbers to look for? To avoid?  Any input would be appreciated.

Regards,

Johnny

 

p.s. If anyone has one collecting dust, feel free to let me know

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Well the PW-87 is not an IAC it's a CAI. 

 

In a nutshell:

1. Chiappa

2. IAC Coyote Cap Edition(some of which I believe he did his drop two version on)

3. IAC

99.CAI/PW-87, which are tomato stakes.

 

Some of the Chiappas are Fast Load and have "Lassiter's" drop two from the factory, but someone will still need to give them some TLC.

 

Slater in East Tennessee also does a great job fixing these up (though I don't think he'll touch a PW-87).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tyrel Cody
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I have a real Winchester and a Chiappa.  The Chiappa compares favorably to the Winchester right out of the box.   And with the Chiappa, you can use modern ammo.   If you wanna use a real Winchester, black powder only, and 2.5" shells.  Neither has a drop two modifcation, but I have found that with some practice, you can load two at once in an unmodified gun.  Going one at a time, I'd say they are on par with a 97, and I can see how with some practice, they would be a bit quicker.

 

If I have any knock on the Chiappa's, it's that the longest barrel available is 28".  I like 30" barrels on my shotguns.  They also have screw in choke tubes.  I hate screw in choke tubes.  I prefer a simple full choke barrel.  The only exception to this seems to be the 18.5" "Terminator" model, which has a fixed, no choke barrel.  This is a fine gun, it's the on I have, and a regular shoulderstock slides right on if you wanna use it that way.

 

But then again, my taste in guns in weird.

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Thanks for the replies!  So, on the IAC guns, not way to tell by serial number which version is which?  I've seen some stamped 'coyote cap', but haven't been able to associate that with any particular serial numbers.

Regards,

Johnny

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Hey Johnny,

 Mine is a PW87 done by Lassiter and I have used it as my main match sg for over 5 years. I've never had a problem with it and have run 1290-1 1/8 loads to full load BP with 1 1/4 oz in it. I also have a Chiappa but the pattern on the PW 87 is a little bigger so I use it. I have no idea if it would work straight out of the box new. I never tried it.

kR

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I have a Coyote Cap '87 that I love... great gun. Never a lick of problems unless operator initiated. I only recently switched back to a TTN but have been looking at the Chiappas just because more guns is always a good thing.

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Kid, still sorting out my schedule.  This year I'm spending the entire week on the Salt Grass trailride into Houston since I've had to miss it to make it out for rangering the last two years.

 

Sedalia, I've cleared out my mailbox, so should be good.

 

Dantankerous, glad to hear you've had good results.  Looking at the IAC's, but the Chiappa's are pretty sweet on the finish. 

Johnny

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8 minutes ago, Johnny Knight said:

So Lassiter, better to hold out for the Chiappa, or does an IAC work?  I don't mind investing in my guns since I tend to hang onto them.

Regards,

Johnny

 

 No idea what The Man will say but for my experience I have seen people shooting Chiappas a little faster than the Chinese guns simply because of what I understand to be two differences.

 

1.  The Chiappas are based on a 10 gauge frame so the loading port is a little larger which facilitates easier loading.

 

2.  The Chiappas with a proper 2 drop modification involve basically cramming 2 shells in and working the lever whereas the Chinese guns or at least mine take more finesse based on how the carrier works.

 

I know several shooters who use the Chiappa '87 who absolutely run them slicker than anyone I've seen run the Chinese gun.  And I think that's because the Italian gun is probably set up to be more " competitive shooter friendly" and is a better choice although a higher price tag and certainly beautiful color case hardening. Could be why I want one...

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9 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I’ve measured the frame opening on a Chiappa, IAC, and a NORINCO and they are all within a couple thousandths of each other. 

 

Perhaps in width?  The Chiappa is based on a 10 gauge frame and with the lever open, there will be approx. a 1/4" difference in the opening length.  It's part of what makes the Chiappa heavier than an IAC/PW/Original 12 gauge.  I posted pics of this a while back, but annoyingly, I can't find them with the search function or on my PC.:rolleyes:

 

Due to the weight(the 87's are all heavy), I continue to recommend the IAC(it's lighter).  None of the factory "Drop 2" systems that I've seen will reliably work at speed.  Lassiter or Slater will need to add their "Load 2"/"Fast load"/"whatever their calling it" to have any chance at reliable loading of 2 shells at speed.  I add the clarification "at speed", because you can load 2 on an unmodified gun if you take your time.  You can make the Coyote Cap version run fine, if you take your time.  If you want to run it fast and competitively, you need the proper work done.

12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Cap had the '87 built around the 10ga version because of shell length. 

Negative.  The IAC (that Cap helped with) was based on a several guns.  The 12 gauge 1887 was used for frame length.  The 1901 10 gauge was used for the extra locking crap and the hinged lever and the unnecessary dual extractors.

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1 minute ago, Fireball #7709 Life said:

  The 1901 10 gauge was used for the extra locking crap and the hinged lever and the unnecessary dual extractors.

Cap based if on a 1901, 10ga.

He showed it to me at EOT.

He stated to me, in front of others, that he went with the 10ga version because of the shell length was more in line with modern 12ga. He also wanted to stay with the twin extractors. 

 

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I have the IAC 87 with the 08 prefix ser. number those as I was told are the better IAC's it has the Lassiter drop 2 mod. it has held up well bought it used in 2012 no problems except when I screw up loading . I know of 2 Chiappa's in my club that the shooters have gave up on one has the factory fast load the other I don't know what the problem is but he doesn't shoot it any more .

Woodfox

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8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Cap based if on a 1901, 10ga.

He showed it to me at EOT.

He stated to me, in front of others, that he went with the 10ga version because of the shell length was more in line with modern 12ga. He also wanted to stay with the twin extractors. 

 

You're going to force me to take the pictures again aren't you.

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At Land Fun I possed with two very good '87 shooters. Their method was loadBAMBAM. That quick. These guys were good. Both from Ohio. I believe both were shooting Chiappas.

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51 minutes ago, Fireball #7709 Life said:

Due to the weight(the 87's are all heavy), I continue to recommend the IAC(it's lighter).  None of the factory "Drop 2" systems that I've seen will reliably work at speed.  Lassiter or Slater will need to add their "Load 2"/"Fast load"/"whatever their calling it" to have any chance at reliable loading of 2 shells at speed. 

I was on Slater's posse at the SE Regional and his 87 ran very well as I recall.

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So, the takeaway I am gathering from all of this is that either the Chiappa or the IAC can be a solid base, but all of them will benefit from getting them to someone who has spent enough time with them to learn how to clean up whatever issues they find with that particular iteration of the gun....and from what I am hearing that short list includes Lassiter and Slater.

 

Thanks as always for the input, pretty well confirms the understanding I had been getting from my previous attempts to learn about the options for this gun.

 

I appreciate folks taking the time to share their experience.  Shortens the learning curve.

 

Regards,

Johnny

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Johnny,

 

The '87 is very addictive. Proceed with caution.

 

:D

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Well, so far since starting about 2 1/2 years ago, I went from a Stoeger to a TTN, to shooting black out of the TTN, (while flirting with a '97 in wild bunch), so figured time to change again, lest I actually figure out how to run a shotgun......

Johnny

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59 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

Johnny,

 

The '87 is very addictive. Proceed with caution.

 

:D

 

Yep bought one to use as an occasional play toy. Now it is all I shoot. Have a like new Baikal in the safe that only gets used when a new shooter needs a SG.

 

That first 87 now has 3 others in the safe keeping it company.  Was 4 but traded one to a friend for a Colt 1908 in 380. 

2 have Lassiter's drop 2 mod and 2 don't. Can't wait to shoot one of the unmodified ones at the next WB match.

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With any ‘87 you’re never far from a train wreck.  ;)

 

I know that folks run a folded crimp shell without problems, but in mine I found that a rolled crimp works much better.  Of course some say that they can run brass hulls, me I could never get them to feed right.  So that’ll tell you how much each one is different than another.  Have fun and welcome to the ‘87 world. 

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1 hour ago, Johnny Knight said:

I've been loading up the brass shells for a little while now when shooting black.  OOC, for the folks shooting brass shells, have they kept them the full 2 3/4 or trimming them down to run them in an '87?

Johnny

Full length. 

Your carrier timing and stop position is critical to feed brass shells.

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On 11/2/2023 at 7:37 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Cap based if on a 1901, 10ga.

He showed it to me at EOT.

He stated to me, in front of others, that he went with the 10ga version because of the shell length was more in line with modern 12ga. He also wanted to stay with the twin extractors. 

 

 

In the pictures, on top is an original 12ga, in the middle is an original 10ga, bottom is an IAC "Norinco" 12ga(Coyote Caps).  You will notice the IAC is 12 ga length.  The twin extractor fiasco is another story.:rolleyes:  I do not have a Chiappa to photograph,  but they are 10 gauge length.

20231103_094201.jpg

20231103_094237.jpg

Edited by Fireball #7709 Life
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