CHAMPEEN

[Fallon Kid]

So anyway, I picked up a pair of Masons in 38cal. I have a pair in .45 but just like open tops and why not. There is nobody to tell me NO. Plus I can spread out primer usage between LP and SP. I started to load up some 38 and decided to go ‘CHAMPEEN’ What’s that? Well, I read a few years ago about a club yearly big match and one category was ‘Champeen’ for the black powder folks. Ammo used by these shooters has no filler, cookies or spacers. Ya fill’er up with powder and put a bullet on top.  I put about 21-22gn in the 38 brass and bullet is 125 .358dia and sized to .357  Yesterday and took to range and tested. I had some bullets with 10gn and 15 gr but don’t like shooting gamers. I want to feel how the firearms were meant to be used. All I can say is I Love It.  I can’t find the original site where I picked up the term Champeen and if anyone knows would appreciate a comeback.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

It all stems from the Kentucky State Championship match at Hooten Old Town Regulators. 
 
They have several categories:
 

Champeenship of the Hillbilly Nation (CHN)

Competitors can sign up for the main match in FCD, Duelist, Classic, or other as long as they adhere to FCD equipment and guidelines. All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed.

Pistols :
250 or heavier gr. boolits and full 45 LC cases of 777 or Real Black (touching the base of the boolit- no cookies, cards, fiber wads, cereal, caulking rod, or any other fillers).

Rifle :
Rifle caliber must be 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 44 Mag or 45 LC and loaded with 777 or real Black to touch the boolit base (180 gr minimum). No loads broken down.

Shotgun :
Double barrel or '87 shotgun firing a 60 grain powder charge and 1 1/8 oz. shot (both minimums). Any type of BP powder or subs for Shotgun.

***************
Sultan of Smoke (SoS)

Shooters from the SASS BP Match definition of the categories of FCD, Frontiersman, Duelist, Sr. Duelist, Classic Cowboy and Others are eligible. ie One Handed only.
All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed, see below for gunfighters.

Pistols and Rifle:

40 cal and up - 200 grain and up - 25 grains of powder and up
38-40 - 180 grain - 30 grains of powder and up
Cap and Bal. 44 cal and up - round ball - 30 grains of powder and up

Powder:
Real Black
Pyrodex
777
APP or Pinnacle and other Black Powder Substitutes ARE allowed

Shotgun:
60 grains of any powder (including APP and Pinnacle) 1 1/8 oz shot
same as CHN
Double barrel and 87
97 is not allowed

******************
King of Kaboom (KoK)

Same rules as SoS, however, two handed or gunfighter shooting is allowed.

 

Notes

Duelist can enter KoK if desired

***************

Additional "side match" categories -- These are from the Indiana Black Powder Guild
Josey Wales
Josey Wales participants will shoot 4 SASS main match revolvers and a double barrel or lever action shotgun. No rifle is required for this category. Revolvers may be shot duelist or gunfighter, 10 shots at the pistol targets and 10 shots at the rifle targets. Gunfighter style may only be utilized from revolvers secured in straight hang holsters from opposite sides of the body, or safely staged on props

******
Pale Rider
Pale Rider consists of main match cartridge pistols and lever action rifle of 40 Caliber and above (38-40 on up). For bullet weights of 200 grs or more, a black powder charge of 25 grs by volume (1.6 cc's) is required. For 38-40, a bullet weight of 180 grs is permitted; however, the black powder charge is increased to a minimum of 30 grs by volume (2.0 cc's). 12 gauge shotgun only; minimum charge is 60 grs (4.0 cc's) and 1 1/8 oz of shot.
Pale Rider is shot gunfighter style, although a duelist category may be offered, depending on the number of entries for the match

.********

 

At Tusco, we use 5 pistols for Josey Wales (Local tradition)
While it was designed as a one-handed category, we allow it to be shot 2 or 1 handed, smokeless or black powder, cartridge or percussion guns.
I frequently shoot it with 5 cap guns -- Too Much Fun!
Since Josey never had anything but pistols, ours is 5 pistols.
You get one shot at each shotgun knockdown.
If there are 4 shotgun, JW shooters load only 4 in their "shotgun" pistol.
If there are 6, load five rounds  and then load the 6th when you first pick up the SG, before you start shooting at the SG targets.
All you have to do is hit the target, it does not have to go down to count.
At our November JW match, we have 5 shotgun targets on each stage, since we have lotsa JW shooters who only shoot it once a year (At the JW match). This avoids confusion among the infrequent JW shooters, and avoids the problem of folks walking around with live rounds in their holstered guns.
 As a stage writer, you just need to think about where the JW shooter will stage & restage the "rifle" pistols and the "Shotgun" pistol.
I also avoid reloads on the clock, since pistol reloads are really confusing and difficult for those who don't do them much.
Feel free to pm me any additional questions
It's a great shooting category to those who have shoulder issues and have difficulty shooting a long gun.
 
While we have a special JW match in November, when we encourage as many as possible to shoot JW, we've made it a regular category for our monthly & annual shoots.  There's typically 3 of us shooting it, Me, Lifer, & Catlow.  We all have shoulder issues.
--Dawg

 

[Fallon Kid]

Thank you so much. I was going crazy trying to remember. Jerry

[Griff]

If you really wanted to know what 1899 .38 Specials were like... use a 158-160 bullet... not the little "gamer" 125s!

[Fallon Kid]

Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329

 

Just a follow up. I down loaded your post and have been looking at it. Great info and again thank you as I know it took a bit of your time and I appreciate. I need to check my molds for a 45-250. I’m excited to get into the Champeen mentality. I just like shooting different guns and learning something new. Winning is no big deal but having fun is. If fact if I ever won a monthly the first thing you should do is check the weather channel and see if hell has indeed frozen over. 

Also just keeping my mind busy as I have lost in last few days Fast Eddie (16 years) and Tippy (15 years). My two little dogs. My heart is heavy but some things are out of my realm. Better to sit at my bench and keep myself busy.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Fallon:

Sorry for your losses.  We too have lost a couple of dogs over the last few years, but we are currently blessed with 2 gems, who fill our lives with love and happiness.

 

What blows me away, is that this information came from my post on another forum (either The Open Range forum, or The Frontier Spot forum -- both gone now, & I forget which one) from 2007.  I've been shooting these categories for close to 20 years!!

I also don't care about winning, or times.
I generally anchor the bottom third!

Course, I'm old (70s) and slow (Bad Knees), but I still delight in making lotsa smoke & having fun.
Have fun with this info -- BP is good for the soul!

--Dawg
 

[Tennessee Trapper Tom]

Hey PD. Didn’t the State match move over to CopperHead Joes? Not to jump on FK’s thread.. It’s been a long time for me. Is the owner of Hooten Holler still with us. AN update would be nice.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Hey TTT:
Yes, I think it has.
I don't travel much anymore, and I have not been down there in years.

But I fondly remember the "good old days" at KY State & Possum Trot.
Here's a video that Arctic Fox made in 2007 of Possum Trot:

--Dawg

[Jackalope]

Judge'em All Duncan talked me into trying Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation for my first time at Possum Trot in 2010.  

 

The KY state match did move to Copperhead Joe's place near Manchester.  We did have a CHN contest there a few times.

 

The awards ranged from embroidered baseball hats to moonshine jars to license plates proudly proclaiming Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation.  (I've been asked about that one a few times.)

 

Here's Hooten Old Town's version of the game.  https://www.hootenoldtown.com/trex.htm

[Flanigan Flats]

Fallon you are in our prayers. If you need something please let us know and we hope to see you Saturday 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

What's the recoil like on a 45 Colt with a 200 or 250 gr bullet and 25-30 gr of black powder? What muzzle velocities would one expect in both handgun and rifle?

[Jackalope]

 

From my 4 3/4 inch .45 Colt revolver, a 250 gr Lyman 454190 bullet loaded with 30 grains of Goex FFg, the velocity averaged right at 700 fps.  This load was only compressed about 1/16 inch.  Probably could have put a little more powder in it.

 

In my 24 inch .45 Colt 1873, a 200 grain Big Lube bullet with 30 grains of Goex FFg averaged 1070 fps.

 

(My 24 inch 44-40 1873, a 205 grain bullet with 32 grains of Goex FFFg averages 1254 fps.)

 

I generally load a 200 or 205 grain bullet with 25 grains of Goex FFFg in both .45 Colt and 44-40 to use in rifles and handguns.  I don't find the recoil in any way excessive, but YMMV.

 

 

[Dantankerous]

3 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

What's the recoil like on a 45 Colt with a 200 or 250 gr bullet and 25-30 gr of black powder? What muzzle velocities would one expect in both handgun and rifle?

Out of a rifle I don't notice any recoil with those loads. In my Rugers I can shoot 200 grain bullets with a full case of black powder and not suffer recoil problems but a 250 grain bullet over a full case of black powder does add some recoil, slowing things downa might. However if we're just talking about the loudest boom and the most smoke or just having fun shooting warthog loads there's nothing better.

 

 

[Mister Badly]

Here's the man in action. Champeen of the Hillbilly  Nation.

 

https://youtu.be/3cKlA5D7oMY?si=WivlXf0wO0_eH2N1

[Idaho Gunslinger]

I'm still looking into trying this. 

 

Think my GW2 pistols will handle a full case of 777 behind a 250gr bullet?

 

What about my 1866 rifle? Or if I drop down to a 200gr or 180gr bullet?

 

If not then what about dropping down to KoK/SoS/Pale Rider and running a 200gr bullet behind 25gr of Pyrodex or some other milder powder?

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Utah State in July had the black powder categories listed in PD's post.  I shot KOK with my .44 mag Rugers.  It was a hoot!  I want to shoot that category again.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

1 hour ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I'm still looking into trying this. 

 

Think my GW2 pistols will handle a full case of 777 behind a 250gr bullet?

 

What about my 1866 rifle? Or if I drop down to a 200gr or 180gr bullet?

 

If not then what about dropping down to KoK/SoS/Pale Rider and running a 200gr bullet behind 25gr of Pyrodex or some other milder powder?

 

Try APP.  A 250 grain bullet over top of 777 may topple targets.  I shoot 777 in 38 Specials but not my 44 mags.

[Blackwater 53393]

1 hour ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I'm still looking into trying this. 

 

Think my GW2 pistols will handle a full case of 777 behind a 250gr bullet?

 

What about my 1866 rifle? Or if I drop down to a 200gr or 180gr bullet?

 

If not then what about dropping down to KoK/SoS/Pale Rider and running a 200gr bullet behind 25gr of Pyrodex or some other milder powder?

Your rifle and pistols are in no danger from these loads.

 

I’ve shot my Uberti 1875 Remington revolvers with 41gr of FFFg, (case filled, tamped, topped of with powder, and a 250gr RNFP lead bullet pressed in and crimped tightly) and both my 1860 Henry replica 24” rifle and my 1866 and 1873 rifles with no effect whatsoever.

 

They’re loud, smokey, and the revolvers are a little rowdy, but I’ve found no damage in any of my guns!

 

My Ruger Blackhawks ate ‘em like candy as well!

 

If your guns are in proper condition and are safe for factory smokeless loads the rounds described in the COHN rules will be perfectly safe.

 

The loads that I described for my use, I cannot recommend to others. I know several cowboys that shoot equivalent rounds, but you do so at your own discretion!!

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Gunslinger,

 

Best results iffin you load the bullet "in front" of the powder 

 

I'd also like to suggest you relegate your Pyrodex to "Garden Fertilizer."  Pyrodex is a "Chemical Rusting Agent" that just happens to burn.  Triple Seven is not recommended for cartridges.  Your best bet for a Sub is APP or Shooters World (same stuff).  Or just source up some 2 or 3f Black Powder.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

1 minute ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Gunslinger,

 

Best results iffin you load the bullet "in front" of the powder 

 

I'd also like to suggest you relegate your Pyrodex to "Garden Fertilizer."  Pyrodex is a "Chemical Rusting Agent" that just happens to burn.  Triple Seven is not recommended for cartridges.  Your best bet for a Sub is APP or Shooters World (same stuff).  Or just source up some 2 or 3f Black Powder.

That's what I said. 777 behind the bullet. Or the bullet in front of the powder. They both said the same thing. 

 

If I read the Champeen rules right it looks like 777 is the only allowed BP substitute.

 

I imagine real BP is a worse rusting agent than Pyrodex isn't it?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Gunslinger,

 

You obviously have lots of research to do.  I'll start ya off.  Black Powder is NOT a "rusting agent."  Black powder fouling can and will trap moisture between the fouling and the steel components.  The trapped moisture is what causes the rust.  With an absence of moisture (low humidity) Black Powder guns have been left between matches or inna closet with no rusting at all.  Pyrodex causes rust of its own volition, with or without the presence of moisture.  It is NASTY stuff.

 

Oh "200Gr bullet behind 25Gr Pyrodex or" 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

4 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I imagine real BP is a worse rusting agent than Pyrodex isn't it?

NO!  I bought a bunch of Pyrodex from Wal*Mart years ago for $10/bottle and loaded it in SG shells.  I learned that I needed to clean my shotgun immediately upon arriving home or expect rust.  I live in the desert and expect rust would form quicker in a hot, humid climate.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

3 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Gunslinger,

 

You obviously have lots of research to do.  I'll start ya off.  Black Powder is NOT a "rusting agent."  Black powder fouling can and will trap moisture between the fouling and the steel components.  The trapped moisture is what causes the rust.  With an absence of moisture (low humidity) Black Powder guns have been left between matches or inna closet with no rusting at all.  Pyrodex causes rust of its own volition, with or without the presence of moisture.  It is NASTY stuff.

 

Oh "200Gr bullet behind 25Gr Pyrodex or" 

My bad. I stopped re-reading my own post after the 777 behind a 250. Ya got me!

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

IG, since you are in SE Idaho consider driving to Price, UT for their annual match and shoot King of Kaboom.  It's just a day's drive for you.  They have a gorgeous cowboy town and run a quality match.

[Fallon Kid]

Well, I started this topic so I’d better give a wrap. I finally got a mold and bullets dropped at 258. I loaded 20rds of 45 colt with appox 38-40 of 3FFF.  I filled to top of case and put loading tray on vibrator to settle contents and loaded bullet. At range I used Mason conversions so kinda close to GW 2 in weight. Let me interject right here a ‘WOW’.  My understanding of Champeen is it is duelist or simply one-handed. This load is a hand full and as far as recoil, I would say at least a .357 MAG but a bit less than a 44 mag. I have ‘rethunk’ this mental moment of folly and in all probability will continue to load 200 gn w/ 25 3FFF. I do not think shooting a match with these loads would result in a pleasant afternoon.  Did not fire in rifle and really not a subject. A rifle is a rifle. I do have conversion cylinders for my Walkers and Dragoons but that does not seem in the spirit of Champeen. My hat is off to the ones that take this on. Ya got my respect

[watab kid]

On 10/26/2023 at 6:25 PM, Griff said:

If you really wanted to know what 1899 .38 Specials were like... use a 158-160 bullet... not the little "gamer" 125s!

i only load 158s because i agree with you , 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 hours ago, watab kid said:

i only load 158s because i agree with you , 

We're folks shooting SASS/CAS in 1899??

 

Phantom

[Blackwater 53393]

This style of shootin’ ain’t for everybody!!   

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

6 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

This style of shootin’ ain’t for everybody!!   

 

 

The noise isn’t so fun for those of us with tinnitus either.

[Blackwater 53393]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The noise isn’t so fun for those of us with tinnitus either.

I always try to warn folks and advise them to screw their ear plugs in another turn or two.

 

I don’t usually go full boom except when the challenge is made.  Hell! I shoot smokeless as often as not.

[MizPete]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:00 AM, Tennessee Trapper Tom said:

Didn’t the State match move over to CopperHead Joes

It did indeed.  April 25-27 2023.  C'mon along.

[watab kid]

On 12/9/2023 at 10:48 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

We're folks shooting SASS/CAS in 1899??

 

Phantom

i dont know wasnt there - but i like shooting the early loads so thats what i load , i shoot 38 s&w for SASS but my 1892-1905 colts shoot 38 colts , 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

11 hours ago, watab kid said:

i dont know wasnt there - but i like shooting the early loads so thats what i load , i shoot 38 s&w for SASS but my 1892-1905 colts shoot 38 colts , 

I wasn't there either...but I know that they weren't shooting SASS/CAS.

 

Phantom