Missouri Lefty's Record Setting Stage at the 2023 Illinois State Championship

[Popcorn Kelly]

I’m still working on the post-Illinois State Championship video. In the meantime, I thought I’d give using YouTube’s Shorts option a try.

This very short video highlights Missouri Lefty shooting Stage 6 at the 2023 Illinois State Championship. Stage 6 was the State Record Stage and Missouri Lefty turned in the fastest time of all shooters on this stage over the weekend – 13.07 seconds. For his performance Missouri Lefty set the Club Record in the Gunfighter category and will hold the record until someone bests it at a future match.  Click here to see the short video of his record setting stage.   

Click here to see all State and Club Records.

 

 

 

[Uncle Ethan # 94321]

Congratulations Lefty

[J-BAR #18287]

That beats his old World Record Gunfighter time of 15.94 seconds that he set in 2018! 

 

Well done Lefty!

[J-BAR #18287]

Were the target distances and spacings set to the specifications listed on Spencer Hoglund's World Record website?  If so, Lefty also beat Lead Dispenser's previous Men's Traditional record of 13.16 seconds.

 

Pretty cool!

[MizPete]

7 hours ago, Popcorn Kelly said:

see the short video of his record setting stage.   

Go on & watch it.  It doesn't take very long.

[Blackwater 53393]

 This won’t take long, did it?? 

[Silver Creek Jack]

Congrats to one fine young man! 

[Popcorn Kelly]

2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Were the target distances and spacings set to the specifications listed on Spencer Hoglund's World Record website?  If so, Lefty also beat Lead Dispenser's previous Men's Traditional record of 13.16 seconds.

 

Pretty cool!

J-Bar,

Great question.  The short answer is "No" the State Record stage is not set to the same specifications as the World Record stage.  Now for the long answer.

 

I started working on the concept of incorporating a Record Stage into our state championship match three years ago.  My original idea was to set up and shoot the World Record stage as designed.  However, after speaking with several respected, and well-known cowboys from around the state and country, we determined that the World Record Stage’s distances were inappropriate for use in a state championship match, i.e., 54’ rifle targets spaced 3’ apart, 21’ pistols targets, and 30 feet SG targets are just too far out there for use in a state match.   I spent a year to coming up with, and testing, an alternative.  Ultimately, I started with the World Record stage but then altered it in three significant ways to make it appropriate for use as an actual stage during a match.

 

1. The State Record Stage uses closer target distances to better reflect today’s target distances and to make it suitable for use at a State Championship match. For example, the World Record stage sets rifle targets at 54 feet, pistol targets at 21 feet, and shotgun targets at 30 feet, whereas the State Record Stage sets rifle targets at 27 feet, pistol targets at 12 feet, and shotgun targets at 18 feet – distances much more appropriate for a State Championship.
2. Each shooter is allowed to select the gun order they feel allows them to shoot their best time (rifle must not be last). This is a change from the World Record stage which requires gun order to be Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun.
3. Unlike the World Record which allows shooters several attempts, the State Record Stage was set up as one of the ten stages shot during the 2023 Championship match. This means shooters have one opportunity to set the state record – when they shoot the stage at the Illinois State Championship match. This is consistent with most sporting events (e.g., Olympic records can only be set during Olympic competitions, etc.). This also eliminates the need to video record the shooter as required for the World Record, since each attempt will occur at a State Championship, observed by a Timer Operator, and witnessed by three Spotters. 

We also decided to award State Records only to shooters that reside in Illinois, which is similar to SASS's requirement that only Illinois residents can become State Champions.  To make things interesting for non-Illinois shooters, we also created a Club Record which all shooters are eligible to set, regardless of state residency.  This is why Missouri Left set the Club Record.  Billy the Avenger set the State Record, but with a slightly slower time (BTA lives in Illinois).  

We made the State Record Stage parameters available on our website several months ago and encouraged people to set it up at their local clubs.  If you are interested in seeing the State Record Stage layout you can download it from our website by clicking here.

 

It was a fun stage to use.  The idea of only having one attempt was interesting.  Shooters that really wanted to get the record had to balance going full-bore all out, with making sure they didn't over run the targets.  Go too fast, and it was easy to miss.  I was speaking with one person who told me they were purposely going to back off slightly so as to not risk a miss.  Ultimately, he set the record.   

It was interesting and if we hold the state championship next year, we'll set up the same stage and give people the opportunity to better the existing records.    

PK

[Shepherd Book]

Nice run!!   SB

[Matthew Duncan]

13 hours ago, Popcorn Kelly said:

…, we determined that the World Record Stage’s distances were inappropriate for use in a state championship match…

 I’m just curious why WRS distances were unworkable for State?  Bay depth limitations?

[Colt Faro, SASS #54579]

21 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Were the target distances and spacings set to the specifications listed on Spencer Hoglund's World Record website?  If so, Lefty also beat Lead Dispenser's previous Men's Traditional record of 13.16 seconds.

 

Pretty cool!

no they absolutely were not 

Edited August 29 by Colt Faro, SASS #54579

[Colt Faro, SASS #54579]

A

Edited August 29 by Colt Faro, SASS #54579

[Popcorn Kelly]

3 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

 I’m just curious why WRS distances were unworkable for State?  Bay depth limitations?

Target distances.  We wanted to put on a Championship match that would be fun for shooters of all skill levels yet challenging enough for the better shooters.  When we set up the World Record Stage (WRS) for testing purposes, it became immediately apparent that 16" targets placed 54' from the firing line would be out of the comfort zone for many people that would be shooting the match, which is exactly what the people whose advice we solicited told us. Ultimately, we took their advice to recreate the WRS but with shorter distances which would be more appropriate for use during an actual match. 

 

Having the first one under our belt, I can say the State Record Stage was very favorably received.  It's challenging enough for the better shooters, yet fun for everyone else, as well. 

 

[Colt Faro, SASS #54579]

Here is the description for the REALWORLD RECORD STAGE. 
 

https://www.spencerhoglund.com/files/StandardWRStageSweeps6.2008.pdf

[Red Rider Rudy]

1 hour ago, Colt Faro, SASS #54579 said:

Here is the description for the REALWORLD RECORD STAGE. 
 

https://www.spencerhoglund.com/files/StandardWRStageSweeps6.2008.pdf

This wasn't a World Record Stage! It was Illinois State Championship Stage.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

Have you all looked at the specifications for the 2023 World Record?

https://www.caswr.com/stage-instructions

It is below the 2008 instructions.

 

These instructions are target size-distance independent.  They are based on MOA!!  Excellent IMHO.

 

A match can use the preferred target size and then apply the corresponding distance.

OR

If the range has a limited distance, use the corresponding target size.

Who ever wrote this did an excellent job!!!

 

 

[Popcorn Kelly]

Colt is absolutely correct - this is definitely NOT the World Record Stage - it is the State Record Stage, and the two should not be confused.  As I've tried to make clear throughout this entire two to three-year process, we based the State Record Stage on the World Record Stage but made a few changes so it would be appropriate to be used as a stage in a club or state match.

 

We had 142 shooters of all skill levels at the Illinois State Championship, and the State Record Stage was an appropriate stage (and challenge) for each and every one of them.  Lots of people went home from the Illinois State Championship holding a State or Club record, and sometimes both, which they will hold until someone comes along at a future match and bests it.  We also awarded a pin to everyone setting a record so people have something to show for their accomplishment.

 

I encourage any state or club that would like to use the State Record Stage to set their own club record (or state record if your club hosts a state championship) to do so    It adds a fun and interesting dimension to the match.    Click here to download a copy of the State Record Stage and see for yourself.  

 

PK

 

[wyliefoxEsquire]

Why not just use the 2023 specifications?

They are adaptable.

 

Not intending to be sarcastic, but why have the state championship track & field sprint at 95 meters and the world at 100 meters?

You can still have the state title using the world specifications.  There is no need to have different specifications.

AND if in the process the competitor bests both state and world GREAT for them.

[Popcorn Kelly]

Wyliefox,

To use your foot race analogy, track competitions actually DO include several different races., e.g., 100 meter race, a 400 meter race, a 1,500 meter race, etc, even though they're technically all just a foot race. Adding a State Record Stage to our cowboy competition is no different:  All we did was to add a 100 meter State Record race to supplement the World Record's 1,500 meter race.  Both races have their place and attract different kinds of sportsmen and sportswomen.  Both are fun and appropriate races to run in the right setting.

Thanks for your comments, though.

PK

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Popcorn Kelly,

I, for one, think you have done a great job in defining your stage setup and no further explanations

are needed.   The shooters involved have done a very credible run of shooting ability and I would

like to send you a big 'Thank You' for posting the videos.   They are fun to watch.

 

Congratulations to those shooters and the club for incorporating such a stage into their state match.

Ya dun gud!

 

..........Widder

 

[The Surgeon]

The way I read the original post is this was setup as a stage that was part of the main match not a stand alone stage. so instead of having all the main match stages look similar and one that was really out of place they chose to adapt the record stage to be similar to the other main match stages. At the end of the day they can run the state record how they see fit. 

[Red Rider Rudy]

16 minutes ago, The Surgeon said:

The way I read the original post is this was setup as a stage that was part of the main match not a stand alone stage. so instead of having all the main match stages look similar and one that was really out of place they chose to adapt the record stage to be similar to the other main match stages. At the end of the day they can run the state record how they see fit. 

Well said

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

19 hours ago, Popcorn Kelly said:

Target distances.  We wanted to put on a Championship match that would be fun for shooters of all skill levels yet challenging enough for the better shooters.  When we set up the World Record Stage (WRS) for testing purposes, it became immediately apparent that 16" targets placed 54' from the firing line would be out of the comfort zone for many people that would be shooting the match, which is exactly what the people whose advice we solicited told us. Ultimately, we took their advice to recreate the WRS but with shorter distances which would be more appropriate for use during an actual match. 

 

Having the first one under our belt, I can say the State Record Stage was very favorably received.  It's challenging enough for the better shooters, yet fun for everyone else, as well. 

 

Quite a few years back we would set up the World Record Stage at a private club and it was a bit of a pain to set up with all the measuring and so I would ask the MD / Range Owner to leave it set up so we could play around with the WRS. So the MD incorporated the stage a few times in the monthly match. For the most part people hated it and griped, so reducing distances especially the rifle was a great idea. I also like gun order choice as well. 

 

Edited August 30 by Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385
Added content

[Warden Callaway]

Years ago Sawmill Mary wrote some stages. One included a maple leaf about the size of a dinner plate total to outside.  Set way out there. It was optional.  Hit it and take 5 seconds off.  Oh the bitching and complaining.  But everyone tried it and everyone watched and everyone hit it.  The bragging and jeering.  Just don't ever do that again.  

[Turkey Legs #48384]

5 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Popcorn Kelly,

I, for one, think you have done a great job in defining your stage setup and no further explanations

are needed.   The shooters involved have done a very credible run of shooting ability and I would

like to send you a big 'Thank You' for posting the videos.   They are fun to watch.

 

Congratulations to those shooters and the club for incorporating such a stage into their state match.

Ya dun gud!

 

..........Widder

 

I was just thinking the same thing Widder. Popcorn set up a great match and explained this stage to a T. All the shooters looked forward to shooting this stage.

TL

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Popcorns race analogy explains it best.

A "Record" is simply whomever did a SPECIFIC thing better, faster, etc. than anyone else who made the same attempt.

 

There are innumerable examples of "records" - I think theres a book published that compiles some variety of them; Guiness, perhaps?

 

And if someone were to peruse this book of records - I'm pretty sure that they would find a myriad of them that utilize the same "equipment" or physical achievement as others but with differing standards or requirements.  We don't compare or demand the same standard of BMX bicycle records with Tour De France records.  Different events, different conditions - both viable records as long as they are not represented as being something other than what they are.

 

The "World Record Stage" is/ was presented as the pinnacle of what is possible on a set array by our shooters under the (shooter selected) very best of conditions and with unlimited (well limited to their ammunition budget) attempts.

 

The record as being applied by Popcorn Kelly and their shoot is what was possible under match conditions (recall this was NOT the only stage the shooter engaged that day) on the given conditions of that moment (shooters did not get to pick and choose their weather or wind) and with the caveat that this stage was included in their overall match results (so they risked significant consequences if they chose to go all out).

And additionally - they only had a SINGLE attempt at their run.  A fumble, a bobble, a drop of sweat did not give them excuse to stop and start again. (guarantee there is not a single recorded World Record stage that was a single attempt; one and done endeavor).

 

That being said; the World Record runs are indeed impressive - but these state event records carry a different level of challenge that moving the targets in a few paces does not nullify.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

27 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

And additionally - they only had a SINGLE attempt at their run.  A fumble, a bobble, a drop of sweat did not give them excuse to stop and start again. (guarantee there is not a single recorded World Record stage that was a single attempt; one and done endeavor).

 

That being said; the World Record runs are indeed impressive - but these state event records carry a different level of challenge that moving the targets in a few paces does not nullify.

 

 

So true, JEDI Creeker.    All those super fast firearm videos we see on YouTube, etc..... ain't a 'One run and done' record.

 

This 'Illinois State' setup is unique and carries a lot of respect for its concept and intended purpose.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited August 30 by Widder, SASS #59054

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

6 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

 

So true, JEDI Creeker.    All those super fast firearm videos we see on YouTube, etc..... ain't a 'One run and done' record.

 

..........Widder

 

I don't want anyone to think I am disrespecting the World Record Stage record holders (I'd proudly post my attempts if any of them had been "fast" - they were not).  The records are deeply impressive feats of skill.

 

But having made my own runs and watched many other try their hand at it - unlimited runs versus one and done is a completely different challenge and mindset.

 

Is it possible that any of the records on YouTube were the very first try?

Absolutely - but I doubt no one took a second or third or twenty seventh crack at it anyways.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Lastly - for those questioning why the actual World Record Stage was not used - again Popcorn Kelly explained it best.

 

A stage that does not fit in thematically, timing wise or spirit wise with your event will disrupt your events timing.

It will also disappoint your customers.

 

Absolutely ANYONE can write stages (put out the tables and the steel for 10-10-4 and call it a stage) and anyone can write twelve of these random stages and call it a match.

 

It takes advanced stage writing skills to write GOOD stages.

So some write twelve unrelated "good stages" and call it a match.

 

It takes even more advanced skills to write stages that compliment and mesh with each other - giving your match a theme and consistent feel and timing stage to stage. 

 

And a step above that to ensure that these consistently timed and themed stages still provide your shooters with an enjoyable variety of gun order, prop manipulations, directional movements and shooting sequences.

 

THEN add in the component of an added challenge of a standardized (for the event) of a "Record" stage that can be replicated year after year (if demand is there).

 

I would say that a match director that is able to do all of the above has demonstrated ability that provides them the latitude to move targets in or around to best achieve their goals - without requiring justification or deserving snide comments about how they run their match or title their events.

[Colt Faro, SASS #54579]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:30 PM, Red Rider Rudy said:

This wasn't a World Record Stage! It was Illinois State Championship Stage.

If it’s included in a State match then isn’t it just a main match stage? So if it’s just a main match stage then it’s just a stage win not a record. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

35 minutes ago, Colt Faro, SASS #54579 said:

If it’s included in a State match then isn’t it just a main match stage? So if it’s just a main match stage then it’s just a stage win not a record. 

Technically - every single stage in every single match has a top shooter/ stage winner.

And since a record is by (commonly understood) definition: the recorded pinnacle of achievement on a specific task or goal - the person that sets the fastest time that will ever exist on "that" specific stage will hold the record for that specific stage. 

And as most of these stages will never be set up exactly the same ever again - that stage winner has a record that will stand in perpetuity.

 

The Illinois folks apparently have decided that instead of offering a one off opportunity i.e. a stage win that is one and done - they will retain the stage set up specifics and achievement records and offer this same setup again on an annual basis for additional shooters to attempt.

 

Colt, you've made two comments on this thread questioning the validity of calling these achievements "records" - and obviously you have no obligation to explain your issue with this.

 

But since I have rarely seen your responses on the wire be this (for lack of a better term) aggressive; it would be enlightening to understand why terms and titles from a state level shoot that you (or Matt) did not even attend have gotten you this agitated.

 

I looked thru the scores - if I missed something; I apologize.

Edited August 31 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Red Rider Rudy]

14 hours ago, Colt Faro, SASS #54579 said:

If it’s included in a State match then isn’t it just a main match stage? So if it’s just a main match stage then it’s just a stage win not a record. 

Maybe the simple thing to say. This is a Club Record.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

3 hours ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

Maybe the simple thing to say. This is a Club Record.

Why is there an issue with calling it a "State Record"?

 

It occurred at the State Level Sanctioned match; it is a State Record if the organizers deem it as such - just like a record set at the Olympics is not necessarily the World Record - it is the Olympic record.

 

No one is confusing the Illinois STATE RECORD stage with the World Record Stage - both can exist as different achievements.

 

We have no issue calling someone a STATE champion or a REGIONAL champion - while at the same time a NATIONAL champion or WORLD champion exists.

 

And we do not dismiss the STATE championship of state X because we don't believe that event was as challenging as the WORLD championship.

 

Our feeble minds are capable of understanding that there can be  championships earned at differing events under differing conditions or difficulty.  

 

And if we are capable of understanding the above distinctions - then I believe the same is true of "records"; there can be State records, Event Records and World records all with differing standards of challenge and all existing independently of each other.