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[Gungadin]

My club has one shoot a month, 7-12 people but only 2-4 are members of the club.  The others kind of rotate thru from clubs within an hour so they can shoot 3-4 times a month.  I don't think any of the 14+/- I have met are newer than 5 years.  When your average age is increasing, and it has to be, then one issue is clear.  At the club the Cowboy Group is seen as 'them'.  Maybe I'm not describing the tone well but I kind of get the feeling that many members do skeet or benchrest but Cowboy and Action Pistol seem more of a niche.  That being said it seems like the older club members are more social whereas the younger members just come and shoot by themselves (use the range) and leave.  

 

The problem is air conditioning.  We no longer go outside, we no longer sit on our porches, we no longer use our swimming pools.  Result we no longer socialize the Single Action Way.  We socialize the Assault Weapon Way (you know what I mean).  And our society is infinitely safe.  COVID masks, ticks, mosquitos.....  What we do is outside, with people and heaven forbid ... guns... not safe.

 

Yep, AIR CONDITIONING.....

[Bison Bud]

23 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

How do we account for the decline that started before the China flu?

 

Appears (IMHO) the majority of debaters prioritize the age of the participates as the primary reason for the decline of SASS and ignore the possibility of participation awards (increased categories) and close and big targets philosophy as contributing factors.

Matthew, I'd have to agree that we have way too many categories and the fact that most awards are nearly meaningless because of it (the commonly used phase "Pick your category wisely" certainly comes to mind here).  However, right or wrong, SASS has tried to please as many as possible and even though we all love cowboy shooting, we are still a diverse group overall.  To many of the competitive types out there their overall match scoring position is far more important than winning their category and always will be.  Frankly, I almost walked away from the game after my first match, because I was told that I was a "Gamer" and that I needed to find a different posse next time!  I still find it strange that there is a derogatory term, in common use, for one that tries to do well when the primary premise of the game is to shoot fast.  If we really wanted re-enactment, there would be no need for timers or scores, but apparently the competition part of it really is a big part of the overall appeal.  I would also agree that the "big and close" thing has been taken to a bit of an extreme, especially with rifle targets.  I have never liked rifle sequences that pretty much came down to how fast I could dump the rounds and would much prefer a bit more of a challenge at least occasionally.  Rifles are precision oriented and actually aiming them should be at least somewhat of a factor.  I also see nothing wrong with shotgun flyer, etc. and find them far more appealing than just knock down targets, but I'm willing to go with the flow so to speak on that one.

 

Anyway, there are many reasons that match attendance has declined and I didn't really mean to leave out the points you made when discussing the declining attendance.  However, I do think the points I tried to make previously probably have to biggest affect, but the points you made are indeed contributory to the issue and also need to be discussed.  Good luck and good shooting to all.         

[Cypress Sun]

Many different reasons for the decline in membership and active participation in CAS/CAS matches/SASS membership but (IMO) the major reason is that discretionary income has decreased or dried up entirely. Plenty of reasons for that also, inflated prices being the leading cause.

 

I estimated that a normal monthly CAS match cost about $85 to attend. That's ammo, fuel and match fees. Doesn't include vehicle insurance, maintenance, etc. 

 

To begin in CAS with competitive equipment will run $4,500 to $5,000. No, it's not as expensive as some other games or hobbies but when it comes to putting food on the table or paying the mortgage...CAS loses.

 

I've been shooting CAS since 1997 and a SASS member since 1998. SASS have been on the decline since about 2004 or 05. Many different reasons for the decline not the least of which is the complete lack of effort on the part of SASS to promote themselves and CAS...but that's just one chip off a big iceberg.

[Gungadin]

Again a new guy:

 

I wouldn't mind tougher stages or longer rifle targets but I can tell you I am already in the standard time rut thinking (10-10-4).  Good guys are 20 seconds a stage, I'm 40 seconds and want to get to 30.  Last match we had some rounds that were <10 rifle and people commented negatively.

 

Realistically there are other hobbies going the same direction.  When I was a kid HAM radio was big.  You had to learn Morse Code to get a license.  They have made it much easier, no code but the age and decline is still clear.  Look at history, watch an Elizabethan era movie and entertainment was a visit to a neighbor, cards, Piano, billiards...  Then radio came along, then TV.  We now have socializing and entertainment on demand with no effort.  Learning Morse code is work as is playing a Piano.  My grandparents could entertain themselves for a few hours reciting poetry from memory.  Now my kids get out a phone to make up Scrabble words and they don't see it as cheating?

 

There is so much competing entertainment that is easier/cheaper/lazier/doesn't require commitment or scheduling.

 

Can SASS do better?  Always, but look at the Microenvironment SASS is competing in.  Winning?  I compete against myself,  others are just a standard to measure myself by.  Get to Bubba Colts level and then... If I get excessively competitive I have learned that I enjoy the activity less.

 

 

[Yul Lose]

Just returned from the SASS Western Regional and in many ways it just wasn’t the same. The state officials decided to ban vendors so that took away some of the atmosphere. The number of young shooters IMHO was much lower and the number of non shooting observers was way down too. 
 

I visited with one visitor and he told me that he’d been involved with guns, hunting and other shooting sports but this was the first time that he’d ever visited a CAS match and didn’t know anything about it until an acquaintance at work had invited him. SASS isn’t getting the word out.
 

The match name badges had 2033 on them instead of 2023 and Sinful, the Match Director, announced that if you return to shoot the match in 2033 with that name badge that you’d get to shoot for free. Looking around the big tent during the safety meeting and banquet I envisioned a large number of attendees attending in jars and boxes, our sport is getting old. We can’t stop time and thinking we can go back to the old days with all of the movement and stuff to make our matches more appealing will only result in lots of us who try that stuff injured or dead.

 

Shot an old school match out at Pala once and nearly killed myself. It took 3 guys to get me into and out of the bath tub and then thanks to the brain trust running the match I had ketchup and mayonnaise all over me. Then it was onto the barrel horse and it only took 2 guys to help me onto it and 3 to get me off of it. The next stage you had to step up onto an old milk crate to hang your hat on some deer antlers and the milk crate broke when I stepped onto it and I hit the ground, guns stayed in the holsters luckily but it took 2 guys to get me back on my feet. Funny thing about that stage was the tall guys didn’t need to use the milk crate. Fun for a few but not all. Throwing tomahawks and knives and stuff is fun but whenever we’ve done that at matches most spectators mentioned how stupid it was and that they didn’t want to do it. 
 

What’s the magic answer to sagging SASS numbers? Who knows…….

 

 

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I'm curious as to what's going on with the state banning vendors. Most aren't selling guns. Did it have to do with the range requirements?  Anyone have an idea of what's going on with this? 

[Yul Lose]

3 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I'm curious as to what's going on with the state banning vendors. Most aren't selling guns. Did it have to do with the range requirements?  Anyone have an idea of what's going on with this? 

Because the range is on state property there was some kind of prohibition on vendors selling for a profit. Maybe Sinful or some other person more in the know could fill us in. It was weird not having vendors for a big match like that.

[Eyesa Horg]

I guess marketing by SASS is part of the issue. I found out about it back in the early 2000's by finding a copy of the old newspaper Chronicle lying on a table in the ready room at work. Now we no longer have that free advertising and I still miss the old Chronicle with all the "How to" info that folks like Pettifogger and Capt. Baylor etc. used to post. If it weren't for the Chronicle lying around, I still wouldn't have heard about CAS to this day. Maybe I've just had my head in the sand!

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

35 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I found out about it back in the early 2000's by finding a copy of the old newspaper Chronicle lying on a table in the ready room at work. Now we no longer have that free advertising and I still miss the old Chronicle with all the "How to" info that folks like Pettifogger and Capt. Baylor etc. used to post.

 

People do not find out about anything this way anymore.  Everything is online.  It's in the palm of your hand and it is instant. The world has changed dramatically in the last 20 years and people don't seem to grasp that concept.  Social media is the new magazine at the doctors office or the ad in a paper. Tik Tok (which I hate), Instagram, Facebook, Twitter (still can't call it X), and others are where new, younger people are going to be found.  If SASS isn't there, then it will whither and die.  That fact combined with younger generations that do not know much about the west or care about it are the primary reasons the sport is shrinking. 

 

I know SASS is doing more than some here give them credit for, they are just doing it in ways that are different than the old ways that most are used to.  Look at what they did in Tombstone recently with Red Dead Redemption. Attracting people to this sport is going to require different methods than an old Chronicle lying on a table somewhere.

[McCandless]

I started shooting in 1998 and joined SASS in 2000.  The only reason I went to my first match is that I was invited by someone who worked in a gun store while I was buying a semi-auto.  His SASS alias was "Royal Barnes".   I liked the friendliness and the guns and decided to give it a go.

 

At that time and for a number of years after, stage stories were still read out, we did odd stuff, on the clock and off the clock.  I've shot while bouncing on bed springs, lying under a wagon, started sitting on the ground behind haybales facing uprange, (guns staged facing downrange), and had to beat a dead horse before grabbing a gun.  Shot "snakes" on the clock before I could engage targets, did full pistol reloads on the clock, had the target shooting order determined by the turn of a card and countless other things.   Some I miss, some I'm glad they are gone.

 

The game evolves.   

 

It took me until 2003 before I won my first little 3rd-place plaque.  It was at Mule Camp, SE Regional.   I was shooting Frontiersman, and I was shooting so poorly at that point that I certainly didn't expect anything.  I believe it was Wolf Bane that took 1st place, Frontiersman.   Anyway, when my name was called, the announcer said, this is why it pays to "choose your category wisely".  I felt like a complete crumb, a fraud, who didn't do all I could during the match.  Almost as if I had cheated my way to that little award, "by choosing wisely".  (I still shoot Frontiersman to this day).  

 

So, after I got home, I looked at it for a while and then threw it away in the trash.

 

I almost gave up on SASS then, but continued to go to local matches.  I improved but I'll never be a "top shooter", lack of talent, lack of practice, being overweight, and just plain slow, all work against me.  But, that doesn't mean I don't try my damndest during a match to do the best I'm capable of doing.  Along the way, I've tried to help and encourage other shooters, fix their guns, loan them whatever they need, and watched smiling as they went on to eventually surpass me.  I am grateful for all the friendships I've made along the way.

 

As to why SASS numbers have gone down since our "heyday" back in the 90's and early-mid 2000s.   We're dying. off.   I've lost so many friends.  I lost my business partner.  I've lost my riding partner who used to ride with me to weekly matches.  I've lost the friend who sold me my first Vaqueros and built me a custom gun cart.   These generations grew up with Hoppy, Roy, and Gene; who watched The Rebel, Shotgun Slade, Tales of Wells Fargo, Maverick, Sugarfoot, The Tall Man, Wyatt Earp, and hosts of others.  We were steeped in TV and Movie Western lore.   

 

What did the following generations grow up watching?  Mostly trash.   Now, there seems to be a resurgence of interest.  Middle-aged folks who are not struggling financially are looking at things like 1883, the re-makes of westerns,, (like them or not), Red Dead Redemption, and now Red Dead Redemption II, which just had a blow-out celebration in Tombstone.  SASS was there, and we have new members because of it.   

 

The years that have passed since the 1980s and 90s to 2023 have taken a deep toll on our numbers.   We're losing more all the time.   I don't believe that we'll ever recruit enough to replace the numbers that were, but new members are signing on all the time, and I'm optimistic.

 

The most active club members, taken as a whole, have higher badge numbers.  If they want the game to change to "the old way" of doing things, they'll do it.   It's time to realize that the baton has passed to newer generations.    SASS has a vibrant, younger, board of advisers that has replaced the Wild Bunch.   I think Misty and that group are doing a great job for the advancement and success of SASS.

 

Look to the future for SASS to roll out advertising campaigns and new videos and social media efforts from a talented bunch of volunteer content creators.  There's a heckuva lot of stuff out there on different platforms you may not even know about.   I'm seeing new members at matches regularly.  

 

Be of good cheer, the sky has not fallen.

[Eyesa Horg]

38 minutes ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

 

People do not find out about anything this way anymore.  Everything is online.  It's in the palm of your hand and it is instant. The world has changed dramatically in the last 20 years and people don't seem to grasp that concept.  Social media is the new magazine at the doctors office or the ad in a paper. Tik Tok (which I hate), Instagram, Facebook, Twitter (still can't call it X), and others are where new, younger people are going to be found.  If SASS isn't there, then it will whither and die.  That fact combined with younger generations that do not know much about the west or care about it are the primary reasons the sport is shrinking. 

 

I know SASS is doing more than some here give them credit for, they are just doing it in ways that are different than the old ways that most are used to.  Look at what they did in Tombstone recently with Red Dead Redemption. Attracting people to this sport is going to require different methods than an old Chronicle lying on a table somewhere.

The closest thing I do to social media is this forum. If I wasn't already involved, I wouldn't know about this either. I now, due to CAS receive "Guns of the old west" which mentions our sport pretty regularly, but that's only a quarterly publication. No where else that generally peruse on my phone or computer ever mentions our sport. 

When I was dealing with my shoulder and cancer, I told every hospital staff that asked what I do fun; that I play CAS. All seemed to be pretty interested, but had never heard of such a thing. I've played a lot of videos for the staff. If you aren't currently into old west firearms, you likely never see or hear a word about SASS. They need to market themselves before they just drift away. Just a view from my saddle.

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

2 hours ago, McCandless said:

Be of good cheer, the sky has not fallen.

 

Well said Duc.  Your post is spot on.

[Texas Jack Black]

On 8/13/2023 at 9:14 AM, Matthew Duncan said:

How do we account for the decline that started before the China flu?

 

Appears (IMHO) the majority of debaters prioritize the age of the participates as the primary reason for the decline of SASS and ignore the possibility of participation awards (increased categories) and close and big targets philosophy as contributing factors.

 Finally someone is on the right track. .the decline started about 96-98 . I wrote several posts as to why I thought it was happening and was attacked by quite a few . All  that I said would happen has now happened.

IMHO

 

 

Think Death By a Thousand Cuts

[Captain Bill Burt]

13 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Finally someone is on the right track. .the decline started about 96-98 . I wrote several posts as to why I thought it was happening and was attacked by quite a few . All  that I said would happen has now happened.

IMHO

 

 

Think Death By a Thousand Cuts

Someone should hold a major match (a State match, or one of the named matches) and advertise it as a throwback. 

 

Significantly fewer categories (let's say cut them in half) and significantly smaller and farther targets.  Maybe pistols at 10 yards and rifles at 20 yards, with smaller targets.   Throw in some on the clock requirements like throwing a hat onto a post and you can't start shooting until you get the hat on the post.  Make the shooters use their rifles while on the ground under a wagon,  getting down and up is done by the shooter only and on the clock.  While you're at it, let's have playing cards on a stage and let the target order be determined by a draw of the cards.  Throw in some flyers (which I like) a Texas Star (like that too) and maybe some other reactive targets.  Lots of fun to shoot, but resetting them will slow down that posse, and all the posses behind it.

 

If your hypothesis is right, attendance should go up over what it's been at that match lately.  

 

My prediction, the match will last a lot longer than folks will want.  Many people will be unhappy about the non shooting on the clock requirements.  Older folks won't like getting on the ground and getting up.  The people whose categories get eliminated will be unhappy.  Attendance at that match will be lower than usual and if the word gets out that next year will be the same kind of match, attendance will drop even farther.

 

I also predict you won't find any major matches willing to do any of that because they know what the result will be.

 

SASS is in the entertainment business.  If you don't give people what they want, they'll go elsewhere if they can.  So how many successful big throw back matches are out there vs how many big and close matches are out there?

[One Gun Jimmy]

Alright, so I'm new and wasn't around for the "good ol days" but I have to put this out there.

 

I watch my possies pretty close, to get tips or just enjoy the sport, I enjoy spotting for that reason, gonna watch anyway.

 

Far targets, small targets, long stages jumping around, cartwheels, throwing flaming tamahawks at a nat while doing the eastern jig on a pommel horse is NEVER going to attract new people.

 

What it will do is age out the loyal base that this sport has.

 

Proof, most people don't ever know what SASS is, so to think stage design inside a sport people have never even seen is ridiculous. 

 

And the category thing as well as what is being called watering down or "participation" trophy is also just a fleeting grasp at a personal opinion that has nothing to do with the decline of the sport.

 

Nobody is quiting because the big meanies give out to many awards.

 

Every single person, even a greenhorn like me knows that world champion of their category vs overall is a big difference.

I get first place ever month for no other people in my category...I shoot cowboy,  not exactly a weird category....and I KNOW it means nothing..nothing except I showed up and participated, which is more than some that are complaining.

 

 

[Doc10039]

My 2cents is everybody that started early on has aged out or had other issues such as death of spouse, health issues or other family commitments. Such as myself after my son passed we shot for a while it wasn't good but we were out. All our friends from our local club attended his service for which I am still touched by this. Time went on then we heard Coosies wife had passed. The next time we saw him at a shoot we gave him our condolences  and knew how he felt. He kinda looked at us and then he realized we shared a common experience. After that we did not shoot any longer. It was just to hard.Thats why we chose to drop out. This post went way farther than what I ever intended. 

[Texas Jack Black]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Someone should hold a major match (a State match, or one of the named matches) and advertise it as a throwback. 

 

Significantly fewer categories (let's say cut them in half) and significantly smaller and farther targets.  Maybe pistols at 10 yards and rifles at 20 yards, with smaller targets.   Throw in some on the clock requirements like throwing a hat onto a post and you can't start shooting until you get the hat on the post.  Make the shooters use their rifles while on the ground under a wagon,  getting down and up is done by the shooter only and on the clock.  While you're at it, let's have playing cards on a stage and let the target order be determined by a draw of the cards.  Throw in some flyers (which I like) a Texas Star (like that too) and maybe some other reactive targets.  Lots of fun to shoot, but resetting them will slow down that posse, and all the posses behind it.

 

If your hypothesis is right, attendance should go up over what it's been at that match lately.  

 

My prediction, the match will last a lot longer than folks will want.  Many people will be unhappy about the non shooting on the clock requirements.  Older folks won't like getting on the ground and getting up.  The people whose categories get eliminated will be unhappy.  Attendance at that match will be lower than usual and if the word gets out that next year will be the same kind of match, attendance will drop even farther.

 

I also predict you won't find any major matches willing to do any of that because they know what the result will be.

 

SASS is in the entertainment business.  If you don't give people what they want, they'll go elsewhere if they can.  So how many successful big throw back matches are out there vs how many big and close matches are out there?

 I never mentioned any of the above changes you posted.

 Nor did I say go back to the old days.  Client base ,marketing, listening to the membership are but a few issues.

 

 

Best Wishes

[Silver Creek Jack]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Someone should hold a major match (a State match, or one of the named matches) and advertise it as a throwback. 

 

Significantly fewer categories (let's say cut them in half) and significantly smaller and farther targets.  Maybe pistols at 10 yards and rifles at 20 yards, with smaller targets.   Throw in some on the clock requirements like throwing a hat onto a post and you can't start shooting until you get the hat on the post.  Make the shooters use their rifles while on the ground under a wagon,  getting down and up is done by the shooter only and on the clock.  While you're at it, let's have playing cards on a stage and let the target order be determined by a draw of the cards.  Throw in some flyers (which I like) a Texas Star (like that too) and maybe some other reactive targets.  Lots of fun to shoot, but resetting them will slow down that posse, and all the posses behind it.

 

If your hypothesis is right, attendance should go up over what it's been at that match lately.  

 

My prediction, the match will last a lot longer than folks will want.  Many people will be unhappy about the non shooting on the clock requirements.  Older folks won't like getting on the ground and getting up.  The people whose categories get eliminated will be unhappy.  Attendance at that match will be lower than usual and if the word gets out that next year will be the same kind of match, attendance will drop even farther.

 

I also predict you won't find any major matches willing to do any of that because they know what the result will be.

 

SASS is in the entertainment business.  If you don't give people what they want, they'll go elsewhere if they can.  So how many successful big throw back matches are out there vs how many big and close matches are out there?

SPOT ON Capt! SPOT ON!

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

3 hours ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

Alright, so I'm new and wasn't around for the "good ol days" but I have to put this out there.

 

I watch my possies pretty close, to get tips or just enjoy the sport, I enjoy spotting for that reason, gonna watch anyway.

 

Far targets, small targets, long stages jumping around, cartwheels, throwing flaming tamahawks at a nat while doing the eastern jig on a pommel horse is NEVER going to attract new people.

 

What it will do is age out the loyal base that this sport has.

 

Proof, most people don't ever know what SASS is, so to think stage design inside a sport people have never even seen is ridiculous. 

 

And the category thing as well as what is being called watering down or "participation" trophy is also just a fleeting grasp at a personal opinion that has nothing to do with the decline of the sport.

 

Nobody is quiting because the big meanies give out to many awards.

 

Every single person, even a greenhorn like me knows that world champion of their category vs overall is a big difference.

I get first place ever month for no other people in my category...I shoot cowboy,  not exactly a weird category....and I KNOW it means nothing..nothing except I showed up and participated, which is more than some that are complaining.

 

 

 

A match could be held with revolver and rifle targets set just a few yards farther without requiring all the extreme examples described in this post. And it would still be big and close targets by the way. Just not quite as big and close.

[One Gun Jimmy]

Just now, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

A match could be held with revolver and rifle targets set just a few yards farther without requiring all the extreme examples described in this post. And it would still be big and close targets by the way. Just not quite as big and close.

Ow I agree, my club seems to vary distance, especially on rifle but they are generally pretty close..I still manage to miss em but then, I aint that good....

 

My point tho, is, what's it matter ?

 

In the context of why the sport is dwindling in numbers this can't be the issue.

 

Being fast or being accurate or being both is a skill set that dosent make or break the game.

 

It's not like there is a huge number of people saying, "Well, I'd compete if the targets were harder to hit." Or "If they would put the rifle targets out to 60yards then I'd be right in there."

 

This is a complaint that the sport has gone soft, maybe it has, but it's been in responce to the shooters getting older and no new blood keeping it going and having that need for a competitive challange.

 

So the targets got closer as the shooter got slower and the numbers declined.

 

They didn't get closer and THEN the number declined.

 

We have some forward motion at my club, we have some elevation changes, we had an on the clock reload, we have fast bang and clang, we have longer farther, we have 2 shotgun, 4 shotgun, 6 shotgun.....still had like 37 shooters give or take no matter the difficulty or lack there of.

 

Now, again for the 100th time, I'm new so what do I know.

 

But it seems to me that @Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 does a fine job drawing up our stages.

Stories are good, they change regularly in shapes sizes and setups,  sweeps and order....is it a never similar computer matrix, no, but it keeps me listening and paying attention when I hear "Posse Up"

 

I'd personally like to learn more about it, maybe something I could do as the new guard to help keep the club alive.

 

I just think stage design would be a HUGE topic if we had 100 bored shooters...but we don't,  can't get them to come check it out, little loan shoot to be bored.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

21 minutes ago, One Gun Jimmy said:

Ow I agree, my club seems to vary distance, especially on rifle but they are generally pretty close..I still manage to miss em but then, I aint that good....

 

My point tho, is, what's it matter ?

 

In the context of why the sport is dwindling in numbers this can't be the issue.

 

Being fast or being accurate or being both is a skill set that dosent make or break the game.

 

It's not like there is a huge number of people saying, "Well, I'd compete if the targets were harder to hit." Or "If they would put the rifle targets out to 60yards then I'd be right in there."

 

This is a complaint that the sport has gone soft, maybe it has, but it's been in responce to the shooters getting older and no new blood keeping it going and having that need for a competitive challange.

 

So the targets got closer as the shooter got slower and the numbers declined.

 

They didn't get closer and THEN the number declined.

 

We have some forward motion at my club, we have some elevation changes, we had an on the clock reload, we have fast bang and clang, we have longer farther, we have 2 shotgun, 4 shotgun, 6 shotgun.....still had like 37 shooters give or take no matter the difficulty or lack there of.

 

Now, again for the 100th time, I'm new so what do I know.

 

But it seems to me that @Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 does a fine job drawing up our stages.

Stories are good, they change regularly in shapes sizes and setups,  sweeps and order....is it a never similar computer matrix, no, but it keeps me listening and paying attention when I hear "Posse Up"

 

I'd personally like to learn more about it, maybe something I could do as the new guard to help keep the club alive.

 

I just think stage design would be a HUGE topic if we had 100 bored shooters...but we don't,  can't get them to come check it out, little loan shoot to be bored.

 

Well yeah. Just pointing out that anything slightly different, a few yards in my example, will immediately be met with, they want targets at 50 yards, on no, they want a bullseye match. A 20" target at 10 yards is a long way from a bullseye match. Not that it has anything to do with declining numbers of shooters.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Howdy Doc Waxham, I remember your alias from the way-back.  Your original post, which you have deleted, basically lamented the equipment race and modifications, and the close targets.  To that, I say I hear you.  The ensuing discussion went into various directions, as often happens.  You did not mentionthe dying out of the sport, the extra activities from the good old days, nor the difficult shooting positions.  I certainly don't miss that part.  Every time I sat on a saddle on a 55 gallon drum, my legs started cramping terribly!  I was sorry when the first short strokes were allowed.  Years later, I acquiesced and have one on my .357.  It used to be stated that the founders did not want this to become a race gun sport.  Well, it happened.   Can't say much more about the equipment race.  It can never go backward, either.   But, as stated, you can shoot whatever you want.  Still, shooting big pistol targets less than 10 feet away isn't much of a challenge, is it?   It took me about 170 matches to get my first two clean matches.  Now, I'm doing it quite often.  When almost half the shooters at a state match shoot it clean, well, that says something about how challenging it is.  There have been many discussions about target distance, this being an entertainment event, etc.  I think what happened was that a few big matches had them in your face so much it amazed people, so they flocked there to experience it and it was a fun diversion.  Then others did it.  Then club monthlies started doing it.  Until it has more less become the norm.  The fastest shooters loved it because it lets them manipulate their guns as fast as they are physically possible.  Yeah, I know you can still miss, but that's not the point.  And by now most shooters have gotten spoiled by it.  As mentioned above, the fastest growing time of our sport was when targets were much further and smaller, so you can't blame that for keeping people from joining.  But after being able to shoot as fast as they can, many shooters just don't want to have to slow down and focus more on that sight picture.

 

Now, not much can be done about the equipment race.  But for those who miss some of the challenge, there are some possibilities which have also been mentioned in past discussions although I don't recall if anyone has done so here.  That is a Sharpshooter category.  Two clubs in my area offer it.  Basically, you shoot pistols at rifle targets, and rifle at targets set further out.  Shotgun is same as others.  One of those clubs has a Cody Dixon category, so there are already some targets out 50 to 70 yards or so.  This is actually a little more challenging that the good old days.  The second club does not have enough space for Cody Dixon due to a rear berm, but they have started putting out further rifle targets 15-20 yards for the rifle for Sharpshooters.  A club will need enough steel to do this if they don't already have targets for Cody Dixon or similar.  People can bring up the category at their own clubs to see if there is enough interest.  Hmm, I think I will sign up for Sharpshooter at the Tejas Caballeros this weekend.

 

I have seen thousands of comments on youtube videos regarding how close our targets are.  CAS is literally the laughing stock of the shooting world.  Now, do we really care what anonymous internet trolls have to say?  Well, not really but potential participants might be either turned off by how easy it is or might be turned on by that same thing.  I just answer some of them, if they are respectful, by saying how we got to this point and that it is still fun, just a different kind of fun.  Any shooting is fun.  CAS is funner.

[July Smith]

8 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

That is a Sharpshooter category.  Two clubs in my area offer it.  Basically, you shoot pistols at rifle targets, and rifle at targets set further out. 

I love the sharpshooter category, however I don't shoot it much any more because of poor spotters.  If I hit all the targets the spotters would always call me "clean" even if the pattern was totally wrong.  Most spotters would outright tell me they did not know the pattern, could not see that far, or could not hear.

 

Regarding target size and distance.  I understand that people already shooting SASS are okay with the big and close patterns.  Abilene is right about it being a turn off to potential new shooters.  I have brought a number of friends and family along and that is the number one comment and feedback I get is how, "big and close everything is."  The second comment is, "why are the loads so light?"  Quite a few of the people I have brought along are already gun people and have the money to buy cowboy guns and most already even reload (which is a requirement for this sport IMHO) but are not interested in shooting SASS because they see no challenge to the actual shooting part of this sport.  

 

This topic seems to get hashed out every few months...  I understand that we need to not lose the existing shooters, but without drawing in new shooters the future of SASS is not bright.  Perhaps a middle ground?  Maybe at a monthly 5-6 stage match have two or three stages that follow the current standard 10-10-4 pattern, but then mix in a few old timey style ones?  How about a bar stage that is pistol only and the pattern order (red vs black) is determined by the flip of a card before the timer starts?   Or a rifle stage with some smaller knock downs and misses can either be made up (shooters choice) with off the body reloads or the shotgun?  

[Chantry]

No matter what we may do, we are not going to make every shooter happy.  Probably the best we can do is to make about 80% of the shooters happy.

[July Smith]

We are already at page 3 so this comment will probably get buried, but to date one of my favorite monthly matches I have shot was at a small club on the south side of San Antonio (STX Pistolaros).  Being a smaller club with berms between stages they could do things that other clubs could not.  They had things like a Texas star, can poppers, down range movement, and fun little off the clock things like using a sling shot.  They even had a stage called, "California" that gave out a bonus just for participating in the stage.   They also followed the SASS rule book on the recommended target distances.  I was still sort of new at SASS, plus I was shooting Frontiersman (cap gun duelist category) and no short stroke in my rifle so my stage times were not super fast, however I did shoot clean and actually placed fairly high overall if I remember correctly.  Unfortunately I think the reaction to Covid killed an already small club because I cannot seem to find their website anymore or I'd link the scores.   

[Dusty Sights, SASS # 2782]

19 hours ago, McCandless said:

It took me until 2003 before I won my first little 3rd-place plaque....    I felt like a complete crumb, a fraud, who didn't do all I could during the match.  Almost as if I had cheated my way to that little award.  

 

So, after I got home, I looked at it for a while and then threw it away in the trash.

 

 

I had a similar situation years ago.  I was awarded 3rd-place in Traditional.

And was I extremely happy!! 

Was it my fault all the shooters that were always better than me were out of town at a big match?   Nope.

I still have the award (its my only one) displayed! :-)

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

1 hour ago, July Smith said:

Maybe at a monthly 5-6 stage match have two or three stages that follow the current standard 10-10-4 pattern, but then mix in a few old timey style ones?

I shot with the North Alabama Regulators a few months ago and the whole match was themed around the "good ole days" people are always talking about on the wire.  Several of the older shooters struggled with remembering all the the little things you had to do on the stages. One stage we cut a deck of cards, if you cut a black card you started from one end, cut a red card start from the other end.  Here's a video from that match.  We had to carry the box to every location and we had a pistol and rifle reload. 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

2 minutes ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

I shot with the North Alabama Regulators a few months ago and the whole match was themed around the "good ole days" people are always talking about on the wire.  Several of the older shooters struggled with remembering all the the little things you had to do on the stages. One stage we cut a deck of cards, if you cut a black card you started from one end, cut a red card start from the other end.  Here's a video from that match.  We had to carry the box to every location and we had a pistol and rifle reload. 

 

Now that looked fun! Everyone has the same challenges. The fast gamers are still going to win, but everyone gets to laugh a bit at themselves or their Pards. Due to age and health restrictions, I can understand not doing things like climbing on a barrel or lying down and having to get back up, but no reason we can't make it different and fun once in a while. I've heard stories of having to shoot a hole thru a cardboard door with a shotgun and then shooting rifle/pistol thru the hole! BP folks starting it on fire etc. Sounds like a ball to me! At a match last year we had to sit on a saddle strapped down to a stool, all guns staged on the table in front of you. It was a hoot and lots of laughs. You also had the option of just sitting in a chair. Some complained, some loved it, I'm in the latter. 

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

4 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Now that looked fun!

It was fun, I did enjoy it.  Here's another stage where we had to light, or make a good attempt to light, a bottle rocket sticking out of a cannon.  Branchwater Jack put some fun stages together that day.

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I get a little long winded sometimes - so I will attempt (for me) to be succinct.

 

ALL games/ hobbies/ events expand and contract over time.

Folks participate once, twice, a thousand times and then choose not to continue for a myriad of reasons (interest, finances, fun, accessibility, death etc.).

This is normal and expected - there is NO voluntary activity or use of discretionary funds that has been immune.

 

The changes in the game - equipment, target size and distances, categories, etc. have ALL been driven by the participants - they had ZERO to do with attracting or driving away new shooters.  

Did these changes encourage some toward leaving?  Yes.

Did these changes encourage some to continue this game?  Yes.

I personally believe the changes retained more shooters than they lost - but other than "comparative" results between differing philosophy matches and clubs; there is no empirical data that proves either way.

 

Our game is expensive to enter - for a few reasons beyond just firearms.

"Specialty" ammo is an example.

If a shooter does not reload - they could shoot a modern shooting sport with store bought 9mm or 223 ammo off the shelf at Sportsmans Warehouse.

"If" the shooter could even find LEAD 38 special - it is/ was significantly more expensive (forget about 45 Colt or 44-40).

 

Gear is another.  An Uncle Mikes Nylon holster and web belt get you started in some games - not ours.  And this requires finding someplace selling leather or ordering online or custom.

 

As to "laughingstock" - this is a barrier to entry; but not why you think.

Our game is looked down upon because it is ENTERTAINMENT not training. 

 

All other shooting sports purport to train, to teach, support, enhance or practice toward some "real world" skill.

Trap, skeet, sporting clays; hunting.

IPSC, IDPA, Modern 3 gun; self protection/ defense/ survival tactics.

Precision rifle/ pistol; accuracy and control.

 

What "real world" skillset does dressing up and shooting obsolete firearms without any tactical component enhance?

None.

But that's fine because our game is ENTERTAINMENT not training.

 

But that fact is going to keep some existing shooters from coming into the game as they see it as a "downgrade" or lesser than their training game.

 

So when you look at the pool of folks who have the discretionary funding to overcome the barriers to entry, have the appropriate mindset to participate in a game where "dressing up" and make believe is required and are willing to play a firearms game solely for frivolous reasons without a training aspect - you understand that pool is small.

 

Add in a lack of targeted marketing that aims at that actual pool...

(my opinion is we should be looking toward NON shooting sports for our new members.

imo, we have more in common with Golf than IPSC).

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

As for the internals of "old school" stuff.

The "silliness" can and should be in our game - as mentioned above; our game is entertainment - not training.

 

Hoots, laughter and a good time ARE integral to our game - without these components; we are just a pointless shooting sport with obsolete guns and funny clothes.

 

But "silliness" should only be a spice, a flavoring - not the meal.

Think that dash of sea salt and butter on a properly prepared Filet Mignon rather than the smell of curry powder outside an Indian restaurant.

 

And adding a dash of spice does NOT require changing the main ingredient.

A big and close match can (and should) add in a "stab the dummy" component or flip a card or throw your drink at the bartender component.  And should do so while leaving their targets RIGHT WHERE THEY ARE NOW.

Silliness, games, prop use and on the clock  activity are not forcibly linked to target size and distance.

 

We set our alarms, rolled out of bed, loaded up our gear and in the middle of nowhere are standing around dressed up like cowboys - if we aint having fun; why are we here?

Entertainment 1st, 2nd and always.

[July Smith]

On 8/13/2023 at 11:19 PM, One Gun Jimmy said:

How do we appeal the Cowboy way to people the way Cosplayers. LARPers, mideveil people, war reinactors and Steampunk crowds do?

There might be a market there.  They don't need their own category, one could already choose to dress steampunk and shoot in any category except for B-western or classic.  

 

Emphasis should also be placed that you don't need smithed and short stroked guns right at the beginning.  I believe many clubs still offer an adult 22lr category.  One could get into this sport very cheaply with a pair of Ruger Wranglers, a Henry 22 and a Stoeger SxS.    

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I get a little long winded sometimes - so I will attempt (for me) to be succinct.

 

ALL games/ hobbies/ events expand and contract over time.

Folks participate once, twice, a thousand times and then choose not to continue for a myriad of reasons (interest, finances, fun, accessibility, death etc.).

This is normal and expected - there is NO voluntary activity or use of discretionary funds that has been immune.

 

The changes in the game - equipment, target size and distances, categories, etc. have ALL been driven by the participants - they had ZERO to do with attracting or driving away new shooters.  

Did these changes encourage some toward leaving?  Yes.

Did these changes encourage some to continue this game?  Yes.

I personally believe the changes retained more shooters than they lost - but other than "comparative" results between differing philosophy matches and clubs; there is no empirical data that proves either way.

 

Our game is expensive to enter - for a few reasons beyond just firearms.

"Specialty" ammo is an example.

If a shooter does not reload - they could shoot a modern shooting sport with store bought 9mm or 223 ammo off the shelf at Sportsmans Warehouse.

"If" the shooter could even find LEAD 38 special - it is/ was significantly more expensive (forget about 45 Colt or 44-40).

 

Gear is another.  An Uncle Mikes Nylon holster and web belt get you started in some games - not ours.  And this requires finding someplace selling leather or ordering online or custom.

 

As to "laughingstock" - this is a barrier to entry; but not why you think.

Our game is looked down upon because it is ENTERTAINMENT not training. 

 

All other shooting sports purport to train, to teach, support, enhance or practice toward some "real world" skill.

Trap, skeet, sporting clays; hunting.

IPSC, IDPA, Modern 3 gun; self protection/ defense/ survival tactics.

Precision rifle/ pistol; accuracy and control.

 

What "real world" skillset does dressing up and shooting obsolete firearms without any tactical component enhance?

None.

But that's fine because our game is ENTERTAINMENT not training.

 

But that fact is going to keep some existing shooters from coming into the game as they see it as a "downgrade" or lesser than their training game.

 

So when you look at the pool of folks who have the discretionary funding to overcome the barriers to entry, have the appropriate mindset to participate in a game where "dressing up" and make believe is required and are willing to play a firearms game solely for frivolous reasons without a training aspect - you understand that pool is small.

 

Add in a lack of targeted marketing that aims at that actual pool...

(my opinion is we should be looking toward NON shooting sports for our new members.

imo, we have more in common with Golf than IPSC).

 

 

 

It isn't often that I agree with you 100%, but you are spot on.

 

Great post Creeker!

[Vail Vigilante]

A couple things: CAS really does not advertise its presence the way the other shooting sports do. I would say it is doing really well for lack of advertising. 

 

Also the 4 gun thing is a hinderance. I talk this game up at other shooting events and people's eyes light up with excitement.....This tells me there is a cowboy mindset in other people, probably more than we give credit for.....until they find out about the 4 specialized guns.....then we lose them and they will never think of it again. If I had no access to two of the guns starting out, I would not be enjoying this. It was a blessing to only have to buy 2 of them.

 

My reccomendations: Focus on Public Relations and a media presence. Second, find a way to allow people to run the event with only 1 or 2 guns. Maybe a different category? This  is my take on how to make this wonderful game grow!

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I don't consider the modern shooting sports matches as training, but more as a series of tests to see where your abilities are with those guns. The same with SASS but with cowboy guns.

 

The difference being that the firearms shooting, moving, reloading, all the gun handling in the modern games are with a lot of firearms that people will more likely use in personal defense or tactical use. Excluding the full fledged race guns of course.

 

In SASS shooters do much of the same but with firearms that many people enjoy shooting but will not use for self defense or as law enforcement. Now I know that some do carry single action revolvers or use their other cowboy guns for home defense, but even among cowboy shooters there are many who will go to the modern guns for self defense purposes.