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Need Darksider help/tips


Eyesa Horg
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Using 3F real BP---

Well after last year's fiasco with the extractor getting blocked by carbon and having to extract all brass with finger nails! I removed and thoroughly cleaned the extractor before the match and used all synthetic lube.

It ran great and after each stage I liberally applied Balistol to the extractor and reciever. The rifle ran superb for 4 stages/ 40 rounds. The 5th and last stage needing the rifle, the first shot extracted about half way with each shot extracting less and less til the last 4 didn't come out at all. Other than hot and greasy, they came out easy with a fingernail.

Same issue as last year, carbon build up holding the extractor back.

I'm running an RPP extractor. Any tips to get it through a whole match?

I could, I suppose, use Ellie's .38s next year or in the future I guess. Less blowback to deal with.

EH

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Just now, Eyesa Horg said:

Using 3F real BP---

Well after last year's fiasco with the extractor getting blocked by carbon and having to extract all brass with finger nails! I removed and thoroughly cleaned the extractor before the match and used all synthetic lube.

It ran great and after each stage I liberally applied Balistol to the extractor and reciever. The rifle ran superb for 4 stages/ 40 rounds. The 5th and last stage needing the rifle, the first shot extracted about half way with each shot extracting less and less til the last 4 didn't come out at all. Other than hot and greasy, they came out easy with a fingernail.

Same issue as last year, carbon build up holding the extractor back.

I'm running an RPP extractor. Any tips to get it through a whole match?

I could, I suppose, use Ellie's .38s next year or in the future I guess. Less blowback to deal with.

EH

In old time battle fields where it was live or die, there are stories about pouring water through the action and down the barrel.  Never did it, anyone try?

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ANNEAL your cases.  OEM 45 Colt cases WILL NOT expand to seal the chamber.  Blow-By will be a problem.  ANNEAL your cases.  Non-Petroleum lubes are correct.  I really like Mobil 1.

 

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Do it every time I clean my BP rifle. With a little Murphy's Oil Soap added.

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You didn't say what you use for bullet lube. Might make a difference.

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11 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

You didn't say what you use for bullet lube. Might make a difference.

SPG big lube bullets. Could see lube at the muzzle.

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19 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

ANNEAL your cases.  OEM 45 Colt cases WILL NOT expand to seal the chamber.  Blow-By will be a problem.  ANNEAL your cases.  Non-Petroleum lubes are correct.  I really like Mobil 1.

 

I was kinda expecting the annealing suggestion. So far I only shoot one match a year BP and don't have a setup to anneal. Maybe I should find a Pard that does and do a hundred or so. Will that stop the blow back? 

Used 25 grains powder with grits.

Only other thing I thought was to try brushing the extractor after application of Balistol.

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A good friend started off shooting .45 Colt and soon transitioned to black powder.  He experienced problems with “blowby” in the rifle and tried several strategies to mitigate it.  Heavier bullets, different lube, annealing cases.

 

One day he told me, “I finally solved that blowby issue.”

 

“Oh, good.  What did you do differently?”

 

”I bought a .44-40 rifle.”

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I helped the problem a little bit with my wife's rifle by only sizing the top half of the case. A better solution was to switch her to C45S brass. Smaller amounts of  smokeless powder but seems like higher pressure to help seal, but without increased recoil. Still runs dirtier than my BP 44-40 guns

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Use 44-40 brass in the 45 marlin. 
Use new brass run it through your 45 dies and shoot. You’ll have a little bulge to start with but that will go away after the first fire forming shot. Works great. 
Keep  ‘em separate to not confuse with 45 brass. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

ANNEAL your cases.  OEM 45 Colt cases WILL NOT expand to seal the chamber.  Blow-By will be a problem.  ANNEAL your cases.  Non-Petroleum lubes are correct.  I really like Mobil 1.

 

This.

 

I also ran rounds w/ different heaviness of crimps to find which worked best but had enough crimp to not push bullets into the case when loading into the rifle.

 

I also started running a jag & patch w/moose milk down the barrel to get the chamber clean each stage.

 

juat some things I’ve been doing.

Edited by Tucker McNeely
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Posted (edited)

Eyesa

 

Yes.  Properly annealed cases will stop the Blow-By.  You may experience the occasional "sticky" extracting case, but my 45 Colt rifles run every bit as clean as the taunted "dash-calibers."

 

Running big heavy bullets with full cases does not eliminate Blow-By.  May or may not mitigate some what.

 

Fire Forming 44-40 cases to 45 Colt will also work very well.  They look a little wonky first time loaded but once fire formed run just fine.

 

PS:  Annealing cases is no doubt "Skull Numb" boring but results is clean running and sanitary .45s :)

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
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You don't need any special equipment to anneal. I use a blow torch, a socket just large enough for the case to fit into along with a socket extension to hold the socket, and a can with some water in it. In a darkened room I put the case in the socket and spin it while in the flame until the top 1/3 of the case begins to turn red. Then I drop it out of the socket into the water. 

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13 hours ago, Tucker McNeely said:

This.

 

I also ran rounds w/ different heaviness of crimps to find which worked best but had enough crimp to not push bullets into the case when loading into the rifle.

 

I also started running a jag & patch w/moose milk down the barrel to get the chamber clean each stage.

 

juat some things I’ve been doing.

I did clean the barrel once, the issue happens with build up between the bolt and extractor, this holding the extractor back and away from the rim. Balistol application seemed to work until that 41st round and then all downhill!!

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1 hour ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

You don't need any special equipment to anneal. I use a blow torch, a socket just large enough for the case to fit into along with a socket extension to hold the socket, and a can with some water in it. In a darkened room I put the case in the socket and spin it while in the flame until the top 1/3 of the case begins to turn red. Then I drop it out of the socket into the water. 

Thanks, that doesn't seem to difficult! The 44-40 brass may be an easy answer as well. I already have a bunch of 45c though. Would it be best to start with new ones for annealing or use my older ones?

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Posted (edited)

People talk about annealing often.  But I have only occasionally seen a comment (from Coffinmaker, I think) that annealed brass is not good for revolvers (sticky extraction, I'm not sure why).  If that is the case, you will need to segregate and figure a way to keep them apart if you are also shooting 45 Colt in pistols.

 

I use only Winchester and Starline brass for my 44-40, so I have a box of R-P, PMC, etc. brass.  I've considered annealing expanding that to use in my 45 carbine, but I can run BP in my 32wcf, 44wcf, and .357 rifles with no problem so I'm just using the .45 for smokeless Wildbunch.

Edited by Abilene, SASS # 27489
correction
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9 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

People talk about annealing often.  But I have only occasionally seen a comment (from Coffinmaker, I think) that annealed brass is not good for revolvers (sticky extraction, I'm not sure why).  If that is the case, you will need to segregate and figure a way to keep them apart if you are also shooting 45 Colt in pistols.

 

I use only Winchester and Starline brass for my 44-40, so I have a box of R-P, PMC, etc. brass.  I've considered annealing that to use in my 45 carbine, but I can run BP in my 32wcf, 44wcf, and .357 rifles with no problem so I'm just using the .45 for smokeless Wildbunch.

No problem with pistol. Using full case in C45S brass. The pistols ran perfect, didn't even start to get sticky. 

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Eyesa Horg, 

 

Wagon Box Willy or I can anneal some .45 cases for you.  You really only need to do the rifle rounds.  

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12 minutes ago, Dead_Head said:

Eyesa Horg, 

 

Wagon Box Willy or I can anneal some .45 cases for you.  You really only need to do the rifle rounds.  

Excellent offer, Thank you Dead Head.

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57 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Are the rpp extractors more prone to be a problem shooting black powder then the factory extractors, all other factors remaining the same?

Good question, I don't know. But with the gun now disassembled, it doesn't move at all. Soaking again like last year so I can remove it and clean it. I'm going to try the annealing route thanks to Dead Head's offer and see how I do next time. If that doesn't work, I'll try Ellie's 357 with 38s and see how that goes! No joy so far with Marlins for the dark side! With the price of supplies now, I'll stick with smokeless for the majority of my matches.

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I shot the same real bp and big lube bullets in my 44 mag marlin. Didn't have any issues other then a little crud getting back into the action. Bought a 44-40 Marlin and it runs much cleaner. Very easy to get through a days shooting with no maintenance. I believe 45 Colt is worse with bp compared to 44 mag. I shoot the same bullets in 44 Russian or special in my rugers.

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Eyesa, as you know I run real BP constantly, 2 matches per month.  And I clean my bolt/extractor once a year.  Whether it needs it or not.  In my 38/40.  

I know, that’s no help at all.  My actual point is the bypass elimination that one gets from the tapered case.  The annealing of your 45 cases is as close to that as you can get with a straight wall case.  Also, 44/40 cases appear to be scarce these days, so annealing your 45s becomes an even better idea.

My 38/40 BP carrier/bolt area is a LOT cleaner than my C45S carrier and bolt with smokeless!

See ya soon!

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Great advise from pards with large bore caliber.  I use 38's and have no problem, less blowback but I make a point of spraying Ballistol on the extractor, carrier and running a Ballistol patch down the barrel after about 3 stages even though I don't need too. I shoot real BP and BP lubed bullets.  It's just one of those things that you sometimes have to do when shooting BP.  Lots of fun with BOOM, fire and smoke.:) 

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On 5/24/2022 at 1:45 PM, Eyesa Horg said:

Using 3F real BP---

Well after last year's fiasco with the extractor getting blocked by carbon and having to extract all brass with finger nails! I removed and thoroughly cleaned the extractor before the match and used all synthetic lube.

It ran great and after each stage I liberally applied Balistol to the extractor and reciever. The rifle ran superb for 4 stages/ 40 rounds. The 5th and last stage needing the rifle, the first shot extracted about half way with each shot extracting less and less til the last 4 didn't come out at all. Other than hot and greasy, they came out easy with a fingernail.

Same issue as last year, carbon build up holding the extractor back.

I'm running an RPP extractor. Any tips to get it through a whole match?

I could, I suppose, use Ellie's .38s next year or in the future I guess. Less blowback to deal with.

EH

Ballistol by itself is a poor cleaner for BP, mix it with water and you will find it is an excellent bp solvent. Use about 5-10% Ballistol and the rest water.

kR

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1 minute ago, Kid Rich said:

Ballistol by itself is a poor cleaner for BP, mix it with water and you will find it is an excellent bp solvent. Use about 5-10% Ballistol and the rest water.

kR

Kid,

That is what I do for cleaning. Was just using it straight at the match to keep the fouling at the extractor soft. Worked for four stages! The 5th, not so much!! I use 1:10 mix to clean my muzzleloader as well and it works great. Say "Hi" to Shirttail for us.

EH

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3 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Kid,

That is what I do for cleaning. Was just using it straight at the match to keep the fouling at the extractor soft. Worked for four stages! The 5th, not so much!! I use 1:10 mix to clean my muzzleloader as well and it works great. Say "Hi" to Shirttail for us.

EH

Like I said Ballistol is a POOR solvent for BP by itself, you would be better off using straight water.

kR

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Just now, Kid Rich said:

Like I said Ballistol is a POOR solvent for BP by itself, you would be better off using straight water.

kR

I follow now :)! Should have used a mix in the first place, thank you. I guess I was going by watching folks squirt those little cans of it in pistols. More to the dark side than meets the eye, especially if using a Marlin! Thanks Kid

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I usually use Ballistol and alcohol mix. Same ratio.  The alcohol evaporates quicker than water.  I use either mix at times.  My habit of alcohol is mostly based on use in the cap n ball where I don’t want any water residue in the chambers.  

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I have helped a few folks when they were using Ballistol as a lube without mixing it, most of them are very sceptical even after you show them.

kR

PS Best to you and Ellie

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Thanks, that doesn't seem to difficult! The 44-40 brass may be an easy answer as well. I already have a bunch of 45c though. Would it be best to start with new ones for annealing or use my older ones?

You can do the older brass. I have old brass that I reload and shoot outside of CAS, 244 Rem for my 6mm Rem rifle, that I annealed after some of them neck split and they worked just fine. I say try a couple of the old brass and see how it does.

Edited by High Spade Mikey Wilson
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I was just hoping to keep the fouling soft at the extractor after last year's experience. Wasn't looking to lube or clean. Maybe I should have been! It's pretty tight in there without removing the bolt, and didn't want to go there every stage.

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