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Shotgun Primers


Texas Lizard
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I just had this conversation with a cowboy that does work on side by side shotguns.  I usually use winchester 209's but lately they have been hard to come by but I was able to find some cheddite's in stock.  He told me that while federal primers are great for rifle and pistol cartridges with light springs, their shotgun primers have a dome shape and are very hard for a light sprung gun to set off.  He did some testing with the cheddite's and determined they work as good as the winchesters.  I know fiocci primers are slightly larger and once you load with them you pretty much have to use them in those hulls. 

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1 hour ago, Jack Spade said:

I just had this conversation with a cowboy that does work on side by side shotguns.  I usually use winchester 209's but lately they have been hard to come by but I was able to find some cheddite's in stock.  He told me that while federal primers are great for rifle and pistol cartridges with light springs, their shotgun primers have a dome shape and are very hard for a light sprung gun to set off.  He did some testing with the cheddite's and determined they work as good as the winchesters.  I know fiocci primers are slightly larger and once you load with them you pretty much have to use them in those hulls. 

Cheddite primers are also slightly larger than the US made ones so once you start using Fiocci or Cheddite primers you need to stay with them for the same hull.  If you try to use a US primer in a hull that had a Fiocci or Cheddite in them sometimes the primer will fall out.  Not always but you stand a better chance of loosing a primer so why take a chance?

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I agree about the Federal Shotgun primers. I changed to European shotgun primers after getting a lot of FTF from US made primers. Cheddite is my first choice, but the Fiocci work well for me too.  

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I too have problems with Federal 209As firing in my hammered double with fairly shallow firing pin strikes.  So, I run Winchesters exclusively.  Buy a big enough lot when the getting is good, and one can cruise over many bumps in the road.

 

good luck, GJ

 

Fiocchi - hard to spell, hard to pronounce, sometimes hard to find too.    :lol:

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I switched to Cheddite primers for my SKBs after having FTF problems with CCI and Winchester primers a couple of years ago.  I have not had a FTF since.

Edited by TN Mongo, SASS #61450
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9 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Cheddite primers are also slightly larger than the US made ones so once you start using Fiocci or Cheddite primers you need to stay with them for the same hull.  If you try to use a US primer in a hull that had a Fiocci or Cheddite in them sometimes the primer will fall out.  Not always but you stand a better chance of loosing a primer so why take a chance?

I hear just as many people say there is no size difference from the cheddite to the winchester and some say they make the primer pocket slightly larger.  I am going to try them and keep track of what hulls they are in.  

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It's not hard at all to run a caliper on the two primers and find there is a thousandths or two difference in diameter, depending on lot.  What many people may mean is, there is, in their experience,  no significant difference in how well they work in US hulls.   I find that to be the PRACTICAL view of Win and Cheddite primers.   Did it become a matter of the primer pockets becoming enlarged enough to start losing primers out of the pockets, or even getting a smudge of powder blow-by around the pocket?  No, not significant in my experience.

Quote

I hear just as many people say ....

Worrying about everybody else's worries is very tiring.   I concentrate just on my own. 

;)

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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I was able to pick up some Cheddites and heard the same thing about size difference. Got them home and miked them against the Winchesters. They were exact same size.

Edited by Sixgun Seamus
Otto
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Generally european primers are slightly larger than american made primers. I have used hundreds of thousands of both over thirty years of trap and skeet shooting. The american primers will feel easier to seat after using the european ones, and I try to avoid that, but I have never, ever, had a primer fall out in 12, 20, 28 gauges or .410. And trap & skeet shells don't ride nice and upright in a shotgun belt, they bang around loose in a shell pouch.

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The old yellow box Cheddites were slightly larger (European spec).  The current pink and blue boxes are the same size as a Winchester.  Like Sixgun I used a mike rather than a caliper and they are the same as a Winchester 209.

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In shotgun primers you can vary the velocity of a given load just by changing primers. In order of intensity from low to high

CCI

Cheddite

Remington

Winchester

RIO

Federal

Fiocchi

 

In the load data I looked at using Clays powder and 1 oz of shot; a Fiocchi primer would give about 70 fps more velocity than a CCI primer.

 

The amount of variation depends greatly on the powder used. Some powders are more sensitive to primer choice than others.

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7 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

In shotgun primers you can vary the velocity of a given load just by changing primers. In order of intensity from low to high

CCI

Cheddite

Remington

Winchester

RIO

Federal

Fiocchi

 

In the load data I looked at using Clays powder and 1 oz of shot; a Fiocchi primer would give about 70 fps more velocity than a CCI primer.

 

The amount of variation depends greatly on the powder used. Some powders are more sensitive to primer choice than others.

 

SD thanks for this ^.  Does anyone know why the primer makes such a big difference in shells but not so much in other ammo?

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Slight thread drift:  A vendor at the Texas State Blackpowder match was selling shotgun primers for $80/500 in plastic tubs.  I did not buy any but was pleased to see some available.

 

 

Shotgun Primers.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Slight thread drift:  A vendor at the Texas State Blackpowder match was selling shotgun primers for $80/500 in plastic tubs.  I did not buy any but was pleased to see some available.

 

 

Shotgun Primers.jpg

Interesting packaging for primer sales......were they once fired? :lol:

 

Kajun

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They don't call them "once fired" they are refereed to as "experienced primers"! LOL:P

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31 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Interesting packaging for primer sales......were they once fired? :lol:

 

Kajun

A quick look shows no indentations on the primers.  I would be uncomfortable taking these home in my vehicle.  If the primers collectively exploded it would make a bigger bang then when I lost a trailer tire this summer.

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11 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

In shotgun primers you can vary the velocity of a given load just by changing primers. In order of intensity from low to high

CCI

Cheddite

Remington

Winchester

RIO

Federal

Fiocchi

 

In the load data I looked at using Clays powder and 1 oz of shot; a Fiocchi primer would give about 70 fps more velocity than a CCI primer.

 

The amount of variation depends greatly on the powder used. Some powders are more sensitive to primer choice than others.

Going to be using Real Black Powder...If I can find it still...Shotguns are hammered doubles 10 or 12 ga, 1887, or 1901 10 ga...Brass shells will use large pistol primer...

 

Texas Lizard

 

Seems like it is coming downing to what I find verus what I want...Get enough 10 ga brass, all problems solved...Have bunch 12 ga brass...

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14 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

In shotgun primers you can vary the velocity of a given load just by changing primers. In order of intensity from low to high

CCI

Cheddite

Remington

Winchester

RIO

Federal

Fiocchi

 

Ummm, that is old data!   The Federal 209A, which is the only version available from Federal for last 8 or more years, is the hottest shotgun primer and raises pressures more than ANY of the other primers! 

 

Move Federal to the bottom of that list (hottest position) and you would be much safer and get the expected levels of performance.  Most of the other primers substitute fairly safely for each other in low pressure loads like cowboy shooters need.  As well, recent Cheddites usually provide more pressure than the Winchester 209!

 

good luck, GJ

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Ummm, that is old data!   The Federal 209A, which is the only version available from Federal for last 8 or more years, is the hottest shotgun primer and raises pressures more than ANY of the other primers! 

 

Move Federal to the bottom of that list (hottest position) and you would be much safer and get the expected levels of performance.  Most of the other primers substitute fairly safely for each other in low pressure loads like cowboy shooters need.  As well, recent Cheddites usually provide more pressure than the Winchester 209!

 

good luck, GJ


Data was from hodgdon’s website. Verified it last night. 

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Can you provide a link to the page?  I'd like to get Hodgdon to update that to current data.

 

Thanks, GJ

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Interesting list of relative intensity.

I have used every brand other than Cheddite (not sure how I missed them over the years…), and the only ones I tend to avoid are Fiocchi, as I have experienced problems with them in low pressure loads (featherlight equivalent) in cold weather; no actual squibs, but barely igniting the powder charge and had me worried about sticking a wad in the barrel.

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Can you provide a link to the page?  I'd like to get Hodgdon to update that to current data.

 

Thanks, GJ

 

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

 

2 3/4 Remington STS, Nitro, Gun Club hull

1 oz shot

Clays powder

 

I chose the 1125 FPS charge weights as that is closest to CAS loads. 

 

Reloading Data Center _ Hodgdon.pdf

 

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Well, that's one load (wad being ... what?).  There are TONS of loads that folks are loading and shooting, from Shotgun World and from Hodgdon's and Alliant's on-line data, where the Federal primer is the highest pressure contribution.   Contributors over at SGW and Trapshooters forums have developed their conclusions that the Fed 209A primer adds about 750 PSI over most other primers in most 12 gauge loads.

 

I'm not ready to believe that ONE component combination you pulled from Hodgdon's data is proof that the Fiocchi primer is the hottest, most pressure contributing shotgun primer.

 

You state that 1125 FPS is the closest shotshell velocity among cowboy loaders, that that is fairly representative?  I'd bet most are loading way below the Hodgdon data charts, down around 900 FPS or less!  It's just that Hodgdon doesn't publish loads down at those low velocities, as no other shotgun usage really appreciates those kind of powder puff loads.

 

Yes, cowboy shotshell loads don't run into pressure problems very often at all, regardless of how little thought goes into primer substitution.  But publishing a supposed chart showing relative primer effects on load pressures based on a single load with Clays powder, is rather dangerous if other loaders closer to maximum pressures get ahold of it and trust it.

 

OK, I pulled from your data a series of Clays loads using the Rem TGT-12 wad.   Here's the pressure profiles for the 1125 FPS 1 ounce load data:

Highest pressure to lowest with the TGT-12 wad in loads supposed to make 1125 FPS:

CCI 209                 8700 PSI

Federal 209A      8400 PSI

Fiocchi  617         7700 PSI

CCI 209SC           6900 PSI

Rem 209P           6600 PSI

Win 209               6500 PSI 

 

Just to show you that there is a lot of variability in pressures even when you TRY to compare loads that are real similar.   It's hard to compare those loads, though, because they use different powder charge weights.  You really need tests with ALL components held the same except for the primer.  Those kind of tests HAVE been done by several folks on other forums.   And, the Federal 209A comes out with the highest pressures, on average.

 

good luck, GJ

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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7 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Well, that's one load (wad being ... what?).  There are TONS of loads that folks are loading and shooting, from Shotgun World and from Hodgdon's and Alliant's on-line data, where the Federal primer is the highest pressure contribution.   Contributors over at SGW and Trapshooters forums have developed their conclusions that the Fed 209A primer adds about 750 PSI over most other primers in most 12 gauge loads.

 

I'm not ready to believe that ONE component combination you pulled from Hodgdon's data is proof that the Fiocchi primer is the hottest, most pressure contributing shotgun primer.

 

You state that 1125 FPS is the closest shotshell velocity among cowboy loaders, that that is fairly representative?  I'd bet most are loading way below the Hodgdon data charts, down around 900 FPS or less!  It's just that Hodgdon doesn't publish loads down at those low velocities, as no other shotgun usage really appreciates those kind of powder puff loads.

 

Yes, cowboy shotshell loads don't run into pressure problems very often at all, regardless of how little thought goes into primer substitution.  But publishing a supposed chart showing relative primer effects on load pressures based on a single load with Clays powder, is rather dangerous if other loaders closer to maximum pressures get ahold of it and trust it.

 

OK, I pulled from your data a series of Clays loads using the Rem TGT-12 wad.   Here's the pressure profiles for the 1125 FPS 1 ounce load data:

Highest pressure to lowest with the TGT-12 wad in loads supposed to make 1125 FPS:

CCI 209                 8700 PSI

Federal 209A      8400 PSI

Fiocchi  617         7700 PSI

CCI 209SC           6900 PSI

Rem 209P           6600 PSI

Win 209               6500 PSI 

 

Just to show you that there is a lot of variability in pressures even when you TRY to compare loads that are real similar.   It's hard to compare those loads, though, because they use different powder charge weights.  You really need tests with ALL components held the same except for the primer.  Those kind of tests HAVE been done by several folks on other forums.   And, the Federal 209A comes out with the highest pressures, on average.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

I don't disagree with you. I picked one load as an example. I have no doubts that other loads and powders will give different results. I said as much in my original post

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