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Way behind the target......

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 Generally only need one “indicator” to call a hit. See the Bullet hit, see the target move, hear the Bullet hit. Don’t see dirt fly. 
I need two “indicators “ for a miss. Heating a hit is important. As long as it’s on the correct target! 

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Don't group up with the other spotters. There should be spotters on both sides of the shooter.  

Call what you see. Don't worry about making the same call as the other spotters. 

 

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9 hours ago, Hoss said:

mic you call a miss, and another spotter points out the edge hit, (assuming it’s the target you had a miss on) then go with the hit. I can be talked into a hit, but never on a miss.

I somewhat question that practice for the following reason:

If three spotters saw an edger = It's a HIT

If two spotters saw an edger = It's a HIT

If two spotters saw a MISS - and according the SHB this call always has to be without a doubt - and only one spotter saw (or believes to or just wanted to have seen) an edger and he "talks" at least one of the other two spotters into HIT, then one spotter suddenly becomes the majority. That's imho a bad thing. Every shot that missed the target quite closely someone could claim to be an edger that got marginally deflected before hitting the berm...

 

As a spotter, call what you saw regardless what the other two spotters call. That's why we have three of them.

 

Equanimous Phil

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Being a retired police officer, I kind of enjoy spotting, but like Harry Callahan said, " a mans' got to know his limitations ",  when I see a gun fighter step up to the line or a 14 second speed freak, I respectfully bow out for a more experienced spotter to take my spot. All these don'ts these guys are talking about , I've regretfully done and I don't want a bad reputation. No one and I mean no one is going to be upset with you for caution! I don't believe you should spot a gunfighter until you learn how to sequence it yourself. I may never learn, it's crazy!

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6 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I somewhat question that practice for the following reason:

If three spotters saw an edger = It's a HIT

If two spotters saw an edger = It's a HIT

If two spotters saw a MISS - and according the SHB this call always has to be without a doubt - and only one spotter saw (or believes to or just wanted to have seen) an edger and he "talks" at least one of the other two spotters into HIT, then one spotter suddenly becomes the majority. That's imho a bad thing. Every shot that missed the target quite closely someone could claim to be an edger that got marginally deflected before hitting the berm...

 

As a spotter, call what you saw regardless what the other two spotters call. That's why we have three of them.

 

Equanimous Phil

If a Spotter that's saw an edger shows a mark on the target that the other 2 said the shooter missed, they probably should change their count. Why should they not?

 

One thing that disappoints me as a TO is when I see what I think may have been an edger via my position, see one Spotter tell the others that there was an edger, and the other spotters stubbornly refuse to consider that info.

 

Phantom

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3 hours ago, Raven Law Dog said:

Being a retired police officer, I kind of enjoy spotting, but like Harry Callahan said, " a mans' got to know his limitations ",  when I see a gun fighter step up to the line or a 14 second speed freak, I respectfully bow out for a more experienced spotter to take my spot. All these don'ts these guys are talking about , I've regretfully done and I don't want a bad reputation. No one and I mean no one is going to be upset with you for caution! I don't believe you should spot a gunfighter until you learn how to sequence it yourself. I may never learn, it's crazy!

There is no way to distinguish between a gunfighter and any other shooter so long as you watch the targets only... Except for no break between shots 5 and 6.

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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Phantom is spot on with this one in that, while the TO cannot override the spotters, he may be in a better position to see edge hits, can question spotters as to the location of misses, and can provide his personal observations.

 

ROI pg 25

 

Quote

Timer Operator:

- The TO does not spot or count misses – but can provide insight if there is a question due to the vantage point of the TO to the shooter.

- The TO polls the 3 spotters to determine the number of misses and can consider their input regarding any penalties, as well as any personal observations during the stage.

- The TO does not have the authority to overrule the spotters regarding misses but can question spotters as to the location of misses. (The TO is often in the best position to see the direction of the muzzle, which is helpful in determining edge hits.)

 

ROI pg26

Quote

Spotters:

- Determine misses by both visual and audible means, when possible.

- Should always be in a position to see all the targets in the course of fire. At least one spotter should be positioned on each side of the competitor.

 

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4 hours ago, Raven Law Dog said:

Being a retired police officer, I kind of enjoy spotting, but like Harry Callahan said, " a mans' got to know his limitations ",  when I see a gun fighter step up to the line or a 14 second speed freak, I respectfully bow out for a more experienced spotter to take my spot. All these don'ts these guys are talking about , I've regretfully done and I don't want a bad reputation. No one and I mean no one is going to be upset with you for caution! I don't believe you should spot a gunfighter until you learn how to sequence it yourself. I may never learn, it's crazy!

Ditto!

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53 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

There is no way to distinguish between a gunfighter and any other shooter so long as you watch the targets only... Except for no break between shots 5 and 6.

Except when it comes to catching a P (not just a miss)

Ex:when right hand has to 'cross' over to keep the alternate pistol sequence going.

It does baffle me trying to figure out how to shoot some senerios in GF...one reason I never hopped over to that catagory.;)

I know to some it is clear as mud.

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3 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Except when it comes to catching a P (not just a miss)

Ex:when right hand has to 'cross' over to keep the alternate pistol sequence going.

It does baffle me trying to figure out how to shoot some senerios in GF...one reason I never hopped over to that catagory.;)

I know to some it is clear as mud.

Shots don't need to alternate revolvers...

 

Again, don't watch the guns. Just watch the targets. Try it and you'll find spotting for GF'ers much easier.

 

Phantom

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6 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Phantom is spot on with this one in that, while the TO cannot override the spotters, he may be in a better position to see edge hits, can question spotters as to the location of misses, and can provide his personal observations.

 

ROI pg 25

 

 

ROI pg26

 

- Determine misses by both visual and audible means, when possible.

 

 

Yes, both...but how many times have you heard a spotter explain a miss by saying "I didn't hear it hit" ?

My point in look not listen is to HEAVILY RELY on what you see.

Hearing a 'hit' only could be 1. They hit the stand (a miss) 2. They hit the target beside or behind (a miss)

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If I call a miss, one other spotter thinks it was an edger, lets go take a look. If there is evidence that it touched the target, it's a hit.

That is why there are three spotters. If two saw a hit and one didn't, it is no offence to the person who didn't see it.

Everyone wants it to be a hit, some times it just isn't so....

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Shots don't need to alternate revolvers...

 

Again, don't watch the guns. Just watch the targets. Try it and you'll find spotting for GF'ers much easier.

 

Phantom

Hmmmmm....I thought gunfighter HAD to had to alternate pistols.

Seeeeeeeee....we should talk next time we meet, and discuss!

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6 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Hmmmmm....I thought gunfighter HAD to had to alternate pistols.

Seeeeeeeee....we should talk next time we meet, and discuss!

A GF'er can shoot a whole match Double Duelist.

 

;)

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That's why it's important to know and understand the rules.  Avoid calling a "P" when there is no "P".  And just for grins, a GFr can have both pistols up and shoot both dry individually (D Dualist sort of).

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13 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

That's why it's important to know and understand the rules.  Avoid calling a "P" when there is no "P".  And just for grins, a GFr can have both pistols up and shoot both dry individually (D Dualist sort of).

Exactly why I didn't spot GF, and won't spot a super speeder!!!

I can spot a 18.0 sec shooter, but that's about my 'skill level'!!!

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34 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Hmmmmm....I thought gunfighter HAD to had to alternate pistols.

Seeeeeeeee....we should talk next time we meet, and discuss!

SHB pg 6

Quote

Gunfighter style is defined as shooting with a revolver in each hand. Revolvers must be cocked and fired one handed, unsupported, one right-handed and the other left-handed. There is no set pattern as to how the revolvers are to be fired, but alternating revolvers is clearly the most efficient.

 

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If a Spotter that's saw an edger shows a mark on the target that the other 2 said the shooter missed, they probably should change their count. Why should they not?

One thing that disappoints me as a TO is when I see what I think may have been an edger via my position, see one Spotter tell the others that there was an edger, and the other spotters stubbornly refuse to consider that info.

If someone would show me an edger on the target to change my mind how could I be sure that this mark wasn't already there from a previous shooter. So, either the targets get properly painted after each pard or I have been spotting all shooters so far while having an awesome memory (which I don't have...). We never paint our targets, so we cannot look for new marks.

 

34 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Phantom is spot on with this one in that, while the TO cannot override the spotters, he may be in a better position to see edge hits, can question spotters as to the location of misses, and can provide his personal observations.

 

Basically, I agree with you both, Phantom and Branchwater Jack, that if you want to find "the fair truth" you have to discuss everybody's observations and maybe make some investigations.

 

But on the other hand, SASS has chosen a system of three spotters with the majority determining the call. And it seemed to me to be an agreement that a spotter attentively observes and then calls what he saw (including edgers):

18 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

4. Don't look around when giving your count to the T.O. 

 

18 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Do NOT negotiate misses with other spotters.

 

17 hours ago, Hoss said:

As others said, try not to show fingers where other easily influenced spotters might see them. Call what YOU SAW. Not what others saw.

There are two other spotters if one's wrong. That's how the current system works. Every system has it flaws and where's judgement there's always some misjudgement. Initiate a system change if you're not happy with it. Maybe a system where the most beneficial call for the shooter counts? There will still be misjudgement, what if you have an edger and no one sees it?

 

And there's anothter thought: If we don't go strictly with the majority call, then some spotters will get even lazier and will rely that at least one of the other two gets it right and will point it out if he's wrong. That's how I see it.

 

Equanimous Phil

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Okay guys...going off topic again.

Shoot me...I have not read every line of every page of the 3 handbooks we have. 

I haven't read the entire Bible yet, either.

Difference is, the Bible ain't changing.;)

 

I assure you, I go to the handbooks when a question arrises.

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Don't feel bad Sue.

About 10 years or so back, I had a 'Black Pin' want to give me a 'P' for doing a lead change

in the middle of my GF run, which caused me to shoot both the 9th and 10th shots out of

the same pistol.

HE said I was suppose to alternate.   I showed him different.   He was just 'out of touch' on

a lot of things pertaining to SASS and our rules/guidelines.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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If a shooter tells me they saw an edger and it makes sense from where I saw the bullet go; I give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.   I may ask to go down range and see the edger if safely possible. 

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9 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

If a shooter tells me they saw an edger and it makes sense from where I saw the bullet go; I give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.   I may ask to go down range and see the edger if safely possible. 

+++give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.   

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49 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

If someone would show me an edger on the target to change my mind how could I be sure that this mark wasn't already there from a previous shooter. So, either the targets get properly painted after each pard or I have been spotting all shooters so far while having an awesome memory (which I don't have...). We never paint our targets, so we cannot look for new marks.

My experience...almost 18 years...indicates that when a Spotter see an edger, they see the mark or at the very least sees an impact off too the side and no where near where the shooter was pointing their gun.

 

I can't stress strongly enough here how important it is that folks consider a single spotter's observation of an edge hit. If that observed "edge" hit was on a target that was called a miss by two other spotters, those two spotters really should change their call.

55 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

There are two other spotters if one's wrong. That's how the current system works.

The current system allows for Spotters to discuss such things as "Edge" hits. Spotting should never be a "Don't try and talk me outta my call" environment. Spotters hold up their call and if one asks another if they saw the "edge" hit...discussion ensues and a proper conclusion is derived. 

 

You also referenced my comment:

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Don't look around when giving your count to the T.O.

This was in reference to Spotters looking at other Spotters to get their "Count". This doesn't mean that you refuse to consider input from other Spotters once you've made a count indication to the T.O.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

That's why it's important to know and understand the rules.  Avoid calling a "P" when there is no "P".  And just for grins, a GFr can have both pistols up and shoot both dry individually (D Dualist sort of).

 

I remember, several years ago, I was TOing a shooter who I knew always shot silver senior duelist in the double duelist style.

 

First stage, he kind of shocked me a bit, pulling both pistols out, shot one dry, then the other, then holstered them both and went about his business.

 

This was at a state championship match. He was a descent shooter, but didn't win many awards. He realized that there was no one from his state shooting Silver Senior Gunfighter, so he signed up for it, but didn't tell anybody.

 

After I called out the time, polled the spotters, and went over the to the scorekeeper to show the timer I quietly asked, "What category is he shooting in?" They looked and replied Silver Senior Gunfighter.

 

So, I talked with the shooter after he finished unloading. That's when I learned the rest of the story! I mentioned that he didn't need to pull them both at the same time, just keep shooting double duelist.  Man, was that a relief to him! 

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Always pay close attention to the targets for capgun shooters, especially ones using .36 calibers.  That is a very soft 88 gr ball that will not ring every time even with heavier loads so you may not hear a hit on a dead target.  Even when it can ring the target, the muzzle report from black powder can cover the ring. 

 

Hearing the hit is always the backup for seeing the hit.  Wanting the target to move when hit with the small balls is unrealistic too when shooting the  larger steel so is only a backup to seeing the hit.    

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I think Phantom has expressed himself correctly in how to deal with Spotters responsibilities.

 

WE all want the right call..... especially with those 'edgers' that might get overlooked by others.

 

Its a simple process.  Think about it.

 

..........Widder

 

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12 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I somewhat question that practice for the following reason:

If three spotters saw an edger = It's a HIT

If two spotters saw an edger = It's a HIT

If two spotters saw a MISS - and according the SHB this call always has to be without a doubt - and only one spotter saw (or believes to or just wanted to have seen) an edger and he "talks" at least one of the other two spotters into HIT, then one spotter suddenly becomes the majority. That's imho a bad thing. Every shot that missed the target quite closely someone could claim to be an edger that got marginally deflected before hitting the berm...

 

As a spotter, call what you saw regardless what the other two spotters call. That's why we have three of them.

So - I should not have pointed out an edger to the TO for the first shooter on a freshly painted target last weekend?

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1 hour ago, 40Chev said:

So - I should not have pointed out an edger to the TO for the first shooter on a freshly painted target last weekend?

Always do whats RIGHT.

Let others parse terms and play word games with the intent of the rules.

 

If you always do what you would want done for you - you can always feel good about yourself.

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Seems my edge comment opened up more of a can of worms than I intended.  If one spotter is in the correct position to see an edge hit than I am I'll darn sure listen to that person.  I definitely didn't mean to imply otherwise.  My grip about negotiations is when I have three spotters all huddled together saying, "I thought I saw......"  Makes my blood boil.   Just tell me what YOU are sure YOU saw.  If you're not sure then you didn't see it. :angry:

Edited by Shooting Bull
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