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Scrub Oak Willie 53737

WTC- Pistoles holster or not

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I'm sure this has been covered but I can't find it.  Pistoles staged on first window sill, second window rifle , shotgun third. Shooter starts at any window (rifle not last) . The scenario

DOES NOT SAY that the pistoles can be re-staged on the window sill. So if the shooter starts with the pistoles must he holster them before moving to another gun or can he re-stage the on the window.

The call was that he must holster the pistoles if he started with them since it did not say that he could re-staged them.

 

 

Thanks

Willie

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No, can't restage. If the scenario didn't say you can restage then SASS default rule takes precedence which means pistols have to be re-holstered before next firearm is fired. This should always be brought up when the instructions are read. Don't ever pass up a chance to ask questions before you shoot to avoid mistakes.

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They go back to where they came unless stated otherwise.

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Stage conventions page 15

 

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

 

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Just now, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Stage conventions page 15

 

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

 

Uh, the revolvers were staged. 

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Uh, the revolvers were staged. 

Doesn't make any difference.

OP -DOES NOT SAY that the pistoles can be re-staged on the window sill. 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts

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Just now, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Doesn't make any difference.

OP -DOES NOT SAY that the pistoles can be re-staged on the window sill. 

 

It does make a difference.

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Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It does make a difference.

You are incorrect.

 

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Just now, Ace_of_Hearts said:

You are incorrect.

 

Whatever.

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If the revolvers are staged on the prop at the start of the stage they must be returned to leather at the end of the revolver string unless the stage instructions indicate they may be re-staged on the prop. SASS stage conventions.

Shooter will earn  a “P” if the are not returned to leather.

TB

Edited by Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118
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56 minutes ago, Major BS Walker Regulator said:

... This should always be brought up when the instructions are read. Don't ever pass up a chance to ask questions before you shoot to avoid mistakes.

 

Right.  And IMO good stage instructions should remind the shooters of the need to return to leather.  Too many folks that don't know the rules all that well and/or have the habit of holstering after firing.  Good RO's will of course remind as needed.

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Just write in the stage instructions "may restage on prop or holster after firing".

Gives folks options (they like options) and avoids Ps. : )

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8 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Stage conventions page 15

 

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

 

How can I return revolvers to leather/reholster them when they weren't holstered to begin with?

 

ROI page 51 says "Revolvers are returned to leather (in a safe condition) after the shooting string unless otherwise directed by the stage design/description."  The design of the stage opens up the possibility of returning the revolvers to the prop they were originally staged on as we're no longer following the convention of having revolvers holstered to begin with.

 

In the absence of directions to specifically holster the pistols after the string I would not call a penalty for returning them to the prop they were staged on.  From my perspective this is an example of the need for more specific instructions.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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52 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

How can I return revolvers to leather/reholster them when they weren't holstered to begin with?

 

ROI page 51 says "Revolvers are returned to leather (in a safe condition) after the shooting string unless otherwise directed by the stage design/description."  The design of the stage opens up the possibility of returning the revolvers to the prop they were originally staged on as we're no longer following the convention of having revolvers holstered to begin with.

 

In the absence of directions to specifically holster the pistols after the string I would not call a penalty for returning them to the prop they were staged on.  From my perspective this is an example of the need for more specific instructions.

SASS Conventions are the Pistols are returned to leather Unless Otherwise Directed. 

1: Stage Descriptions allowed staging of pistols on window sill

2. Stage Descriptions said nothing about restaging of pistols on sill

SASS Covenants take over at this point requiring pistols to be holstered at the end of the shooting string.

To avoid this issue, write, what you intend, into the stage descriptions, or discuss it during the posse leader walk.

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22 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

SASS Conventions are the Pistols are returned to leather Unless Otherwise Directed. 

1: Stage Descriptions allowed staging of pistols on window sill

2. Stage Descriptions said nothing about restaging of pistols on sill

SASS Covenants take over at this point requiring pistols to be holstered at the end of the shooting string.

To avoid this issue, write, what you intend, into the stage descriptions, or discuss it during the posse leader walk.

Stage description REQUIRED staging of pistols on window sill.  SASS conventions say that pistols will be REholstered or RETURNED to leather at the end of the shooting string.  That pretty clearly implies that the pistols STARTED out in the holsters, which was not the case here. 

 

I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but given the fact that ROI says 'unless otherwise directed by stage DESIGN/description, I would not call a penalty for returning the revolvers to the window sill.

 

Having said all that, there's no way I get past the stage instructions on a stage like this without specifically asking what has to be done with the revolvers.

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If in fact this should be a penalty, then I wonder what is the point of that penalty?  Is there safety involved?  Is the shooter trying to gain an advantage?  In the absence of instructions to the contrary I expect guns to go back where they started. 

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What if instructions say make pistols safe?

                                                                                  Largo

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12 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

If in fact this should be a penalty, then I wonder what is the point of that penalty?  Is there safety involved?  Is the shooter trying to gain an advantage?  In the absence of instructions to the contrary I expect guns to go back where they started. 

 

About 5 years ago, this would have been a MSV. It was changed to a P at the very end of 2015.

 

SASS 2015 TG Summit Agenda

Quote

4) Should the penalty for not holstering revolvers at the end of the revolver shooting string be changed from a MSV to a Procedural penalty?

 

Discussion points: Currently the SASS Stage Convention is: Revolvers must be holstered at the end of the shooting string unless otherwise stated in the stage description. The ROC believes that failure to re-holster at the end of the revolver strong is NOT A SAFETY issue. Changing the penalty from a MSV to a ”Procedural” penalty is far more appropriate and more in keeping with the “type” of penalty. There are some “unintended consequences” which need to be considered: A shooter could already have one “P” on the stage for some other reason, and then NOT re-holster to save time, knowing that only one “P" may be assessed.

 

If it can be determined that the shooter did so on purpose for a competitive advantage (e.g. to make up some of the time penalty for the initial “P”), then a “Spirit of the Game” penalty could be assessed. This is a situation that is correctable on the clock before the next gun is fired.

 

The ROC recommends a “YES” vote.

 

TERRITORIAL GOVERNORS SUMMIT – DECEMBER 2015

Quote

4) Should the penalty for not holstering revolvers at the end of the revolver shooting string be changed from a MSV to a Procedural penalty?

 

PASSED - For 85.61% Against 14.39% Abstain 00.00%

 

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22 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Stage description REQUIRED staging of pistols on window sill.  SASS conventions say that pistols will be REholstered or RETURNED to leather at the end of the shooting string.  That pretty clearly implies that the pistols STARTED out in the holsters, which was not the case here. 

 

I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but given the fact that ROI says 'unless otherwise directed by stage DESIGN/description, I would not call a penalty for returning the revolvers to the window sill.

 

Having said all that, there's no way I get past the stage instructions on a stage like this without specifically asking what has to be done with the revolvers.

 

I'm going to suggest they were in your holsters before you staged them on the window sill; so returned to holsters would be correct.

 

 

Unless someone else carried them to the staged location or you have 4 hands.

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Bill this happened this weekend , I discussed this with the RO and it was decided since the stage did not say to re-stage or holster,that the pistoles should be holstered according to the stage conventions. I know other posses returned them to the sill or holstered them at their discretion. I don't think it is a safety issue , advantage?

 

Willie

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Q) How are revolvers brought from the LT to the stage?
A) In the shooter's holsters.

The "
Safety and Handling Convention"  (SHB p.15) is clear enough.
If the revolvers are staged at the beginning of the stage, and the shooter has the option to restage them at the end of the shooting string, that option MUST be specified in the stage instructions.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I'm going to suggest they were in your holsters before you staged them on the window sill; so returned to holsters would be correct.

 

 

Unless someone else carried them to the staged location or you have 4 hands.

Following that logic, your long guns were in your hands before you staged them so should they be returned to your hands after shooting them?  Of course the answer is no but you see the logic.

 

I'm in agreement with Capt. Bill (dang that was hard to type :lol:  ), if they were  staged on the prop at the beginning of the stage and absent any specific stage instructions to reholster them, restaging them back on the prop would be ok.  When I write stages and have pistols staged I always include instructions that shooter may restage them back or holster them, shooter's choice.  If I had to move to another location after shooting the pistol I would choose to holster it as I could do that while I was moving.  It just depends on the stage instructions and scenario.

 

Kajun

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I'm with Burt on this. SASS default is pistols are holstered at the beginning of a stage and re-holstered after firing. This stage has deviated from SASS default already by staging the pistols on a window sill. Therefore the SASS default to re-holster is no longer in effect. Since the stage directions do not specify what to do with the pistols after firing, the shooter has a choice, restage or holster (not re-holster since they didn't start there).

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1 minute ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Following that logic, your long guns were in your hands before you staged them so should they be returned to your hands after shooting them?  Of course the answer is no but you see the logic.

 

I'm in agreement with Capt. Bill (dang that was hard to type :lol:  ), if they were  staged on the prop at the beginning of the stage and absent any specific stage instructions to reholster them, restaging them back on the prop would be ok.  When I write stages and have pistols staged I always include instructions that shooter may restage them back or holster them, shooter's choice.  If I had to move to another location after shooting the pistol I would choose to holster it as I could do that while I was moving.  It just depends on the stage instructions and scenario.

 

Kajun

 

Well the rulebook doesn't say return rifle/shotgun to holsters.

 

I'm sorry we've caused you to agree with CBB :lol:

 

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3 minutes ago, Scrub Oak Willie 53737 said:

Bill this happened this weekend , I discussed this with the RO and it was decided since the stage did not say to re-stage or holster,that the pistoles should be holstered according to the stage conventions. I know other posses returned them to the sill or holstered them at their discretion. I don't think it is a safety issue , advantage?

 

Willie

I think it's a ticky tack penalty to call, and I think it's also poor stage writing.  If the ruling is that the revolvers must be holstered (not reholstered, or returned to leather as the rules state) then I'll make that call.  But, I'll do my best on the front end to make sure the required procedure is clarified when the stage instructions are read.

 

@Tyrel Cody and @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495Lfollowing your logic I could say I started the stage with long gun(s) in hand, since that's how I carried them to the stage. 

 

PWB I respectfully disagree that SHB 15 is clear enough.  It says reholstered and returned to leather.  The stage in question did not have pistols in holsters when the stage began. 

 

Having said all that, I stand corrected, it's a P.  

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26 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

...

 

@Tyrel Cody and @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495Lfollowing your logic I could say I started the stage with long gun(s) in hand, since that's how I carried them to the stage. 

The convention is in the REVOLVERS section...long guns are treated differently in the following (separate) section.
That argument is illogical. 

 

PWB I respectfully disagree that SHB 15 is clear enough.  It says reholstered and returned to leather.  The stage in question did not have pistols in holsters when the stage began. 
I suppose that verbiage can be edited to make it more clear for those who insist on misunderstanding it.
Or add a separate statement to cover revolvers that start staged...and another for revolvers that start "in hand(s)"... 

 

Having said all that, I stand corrected, it's a P.  

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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18 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Following that logic, your long guns were in your hands before you staged them so should they be returned to your hands after shooting them?  Of course the answer is no but you see the logic.

 

I'm in agreement with Capt. Bill (dang that was hard to type :lol:  ), if they were  staged on the prop at the beginning of the stage and absent any specific stage instructions to reholster them, restaging them back on the prop would be ok.  When I write stages and have pistols staged I always include instructions that shooter may restage them back or holster them, shooter's choice.  If I had to move to another location after shooting the pistol I would choose to holster it as I could do that while I was moving.  It just depends on the stage instructions and scenario.

 

Kajun

I'm quoting that so you can't change your mind and delete it!:D

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

 

Respectfully, I'm not insisting on misunderstanding it.  I saw the post, looked in the SHB, made a good faith effort to interpret what I read and thought it wasn't clear.   Given it wasn't clear to me, I wouldn't have assessed a penalty had I been the TO when this occurred.

 

I still think it isn't clearly written. I don't see the need for a penalty for returning a gun to the same place it started from (absent stage instructions to the contrary) but you've explained the correct ruling. I stand corrected and that's the call I'll make in the future.

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49 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Q) How are revolvers brought from the LT to the stage?
A) In the shooter's holsters.

The "
Safety and Handling Convention"  (SHB p.15) is clear enough.
If the revolvers are staged at the beginning of the stage, and the shooter has the option to restage them at the end of the shooting string, that option MUST be specified in the stage instructions.

 

 

 

The Stage writer gets a "P".

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47 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

and another for revolvers that start "in hand(s)"

 

I was going to give them 'til this afternoon before I asked that one...

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1 hour ago, Scrub Oak Willie 53737 said:

Bill there were no penalty assed to the one's that did not holster , fair ? 

 

ROI P45

Quote

A Range Officer electing to not penalize a match participant that has not complied with a ... rule ... ultimately results in penalizing all other match participants that DID comply.

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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20 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

ROI P45

 

Tough crowd. 

 

He didn't know if a rule had been broken Jack.  I would be willing to bet that nobody there knew, so they went with a no call.  

 

I'm very ashamed that it wasn't clear to me, Willie should be too. <_<

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28 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Tough crowd. 

 

He didn't know if a rule had been broken Jack.  I would be willing to bet that nobody there knew, so they went with a no call.  

 

I'm very ashamed that it wasn't clear to me, Willie should be too. <_<

 

Ignorantia juris non excusat

 

Someone there knew that it was a penalty, otherwise Willie would not be here asking about why some were penalized for it (or at the least prevented from doing it by their Posse Marshal or other person in the know) - while others were not.

 

And he is right, and SASS recognizes it. By not penalizing those that earned the penalty, everyone that did comply with the regulations was penalized. Not a knock on anyone, that is just the organization's statement of fact.

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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