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Artie Fly, SASS #25397

Championship Level Shooting

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Posted (edited)

Thank you, Artie.  I hope you're right about the virus.  We'll certainly know soon.

See you on the trail,

Possum

Edited by Possum Skinner, SASS#60697

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41 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Great spelling of Corona.  Calls it what it is.  

Just doing my part to take the heat off of the beer.

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We target for about 10% clean. I think if you are getting 20 - 30 % that might be a local thing and part of the problem. 

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I’ve shot at several clubs that offer “sharpshooter”  category, which is what you described. Those that offer Cody Dixon use those rifles targets, in the 60 -75 yd range.  A very few are a little further. some are closer, just depends on what the range limitations are. It’s a fun category. Have to do more aiming for sure. It’s a good category for those who prefer to take their time and aim instead of point. Many prefer this to seeing how fast you can manipulate your guns.  (And I’m in no way putting down the fast championship shooters, they got that way by practice and hard work) As I’ve said, I may not be able to “run and Gun” but I can “amble and aim”! 

 

I'm generally about a Top 1/3 shooter. Never going to win top overall shooter. I’ve shot a few 10/10/4  stages under 20 seconds, but low-mid 20s more my norm. 
 

I do enjoy shooting Cody Dixon when it is offered. it’s my preferred category. I’m even going to try Cody Dixon single shoot soon. (Just waiting on the right rifle) 
 

there is something in this great game for everyone. 

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I'll be the first to admit that % of clean shooters, procedures earned, etc...... have always eluded me

as being a 'stand alone'  determination of a match or target hit ability.

And here's why:

 

Some clubs have small attendees.   Sometimes, a dozen or so, maybe less.

Their shooters consist of a group of fellers who just left Hardy's biscuit/gravy/egg

breakfast table.

They could care less about their stage times..... but rather focus on hitting ALL the targets,

regardless of size and distance.   They are the type of fellers who could probably pop the head

off a rattlesnake or copperhead at 10 yards with only 1 shot.

 

When 6 or 7 of them clean the match, that % of clean shooters jumps up to 50% or more.

This isn't necessarily a good indication of the stage difficulty or design.

 

Opposite of that is that some clubs have a good many young, fast and accurate shooters.

They might not be able to eyeball shoot a gorilla at 7 yards, but they can sure put

5 shots into his chest in about 1.5 seconds.   Those fellers don't often miss either.

Thats why they are champions.

 

When a good many of our top shooters CLEAN a match with a sub 20 second average,

most of the misses accumulated are probably from 'US' middle of the pack shooters.

You know..... us 'wannabees'....... :D

 

Anyhow, when 'clean %' are used as a 'stand alone' criteria in determining match difficulty,

your results are somewhat skewed without knowing many other factors.

 

..........Widder

 

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In the past 10 years I have learned no matter how far or near the distance, how big or small the targets, no matter how difficult or easy the stage is and how many categories I offer: there are always the same shooters in front.

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On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 9:08 AM, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Artei, I cannot see this working, however, if it was to be tried, I'd think it might be done like we used to do sharpshooter category:.  

 

For about a year our club offered Sharpshooter as a category.  Shooters in this category shot our normal rifle targets (10-15 yards) with their pistols and we had a further bank of rifle targets they shot with rifle.  Only took a few extra targets per stage and made at least one of our shooters a much better and confident shooter.

 

I, myself, think our (CAS) rifle targets are ridiculously close (as a whole), but that is another topic...

 

Possum

Howdy, Possum,

At THSS, we've been shooting Sharpshooter for a couple of years now. Doc Boedecker, recently made famous by bandaging Artie Fly, consistently outshoots me, but I still take pride in shooting at the increased distances. Hell, even Mamie Fossett outshoots me. But I still like it better than the close-and-splatter targets that the others shoot at.

So, Artie, we already have Championship Level Shooting every month.

Are the top shooters confident enough to shoot at the increased distances, or are they just one-show ponies?

Hobble over here and get behind some cover.

Duck, I feel their sights on me.

 

Brazos John

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Brazos John said:

Howdy, Possum,

At THSS, we've been shooting Sharpshooter for a couple of years now. Doc Boedecker, recently made famous by bandaging Artie Fly, consistently outshoots me, but I still take pride in shooting at the increased distances. Hell, even Mamie Fossett outshoots me. But I still like it better than the close-and-splatter targets that the others shoot at.

So, Artie, we already have Championship Level Shooting every month.

Are the top shooters confident enough to shoot at the increased distances, or are they just one-show ponies?

Hobble over here and get behind some cover.

Duck, I feel their sights on me.

 

Brazos John

 

 

This is just faulty logic.

 

Your further targets don't make it a Championship Level shoot. It makes it a different game - nothing more.

 

We've measured the impact of moving targets further out. It hurts the Non-Top Shooters more. Spread between times top to bottom increases.

 

So... Next question please.

 

PS: It's one TRICK pony.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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No dice for me.

One of the joys of this game is I can play on a level playing field with the very best in our game at the same time.

 

I'm a average to decent shooter.

BUT every once in a while, solely by accident - I manage to put together a stage or two that runs with some of the big dogs.

 

I can't seem to put together a complete match too often - but sometimes, I get to point to a stage where I ran times competitive with a Hells Coming, Robyn DeVault or any of the various hot shoes.

 

I don't want those few runs to be meaningless because I'm shooting a different match than the big dogs.

 

And if I do happen to magically shoot the match of my lifetime - I want it to be on the same playing field and under the same conditions as the guys and girls I'm chasing.

 

I'd much rather lose to the best than be a highly ranked second tier shooter.

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Second point:

Where on earth do people get the idea that accuracy is "harder" or more "championship worthy" than speed?

 

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This is just faulty logic.

 

Your further targets don't make it a Championship Level shoot. It makes it a different game - nothing more.

 

We've measured the impact of moving targets further out. It hurts the Non-Top Shooters more. Spread between times top to bottom increases.

 

So... Next question please.

 

PS: It's one TRICK pony.

 

Phantom

 

Phantom,

I don't disagree with your Third Sentence.

But you missed my point.

Artie described the criteria for a Championship Level, and I said that we've been shooting that way as Sharpshooters for a couple of years.

The targets are already there, as are the close-in targets for the other shooters.

I certainly wasn't saying that all folks should shoot farther targets. See your Third Sentence above.

But I was wondering about the Top Shooters being able to hit the Sharpshooter targets at their usual speed.

Probably not...

 

But, you are absolutely right - It IS one TRICK pony. Like the Paul Simon song.

 

Brazos

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if you want tiny targets shoot steel challenge 

but they are same 6 stages everytime  5 targets top times are 2 second plus 

 no story but is makes for fast shooten 

 

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43 minutes ago, Brazos John said:

But I was wondering about the Top Shooters being able to hit the Sharpshooter targets at their usual speed.

Of course not.

Move targets out and it slows down everybody.

 

But I guarantee you - the top shooters will still do it faster than the average shooters.

 

This fallacy that setting the targets at X distance will change the rankings is silly.

The top shooters will slow enough to ensure their sights are on target - but their superior firearms manipulation skills, transition skills and game understanding will still win the day.

 

Besides; I have, on numerous occasions, explained and demonstrated that moving the targets dramatically further out makes accuracy LESS important to final rankings - not more. 

But yet, this fallacy continues to exist.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Brazos John said:

 

<snip>

But I was wondering about the Top Shooters being able to hit the Sharpshooter targets at their usual speed.

Probably not...

 

<snip>

 

You are right.  It won't be at the same speed that they shoot close targets. 

 

<soapbox> I'm going to be brutally honest here, but this is a general statement to a myth that seems to linger well past it's expiration date.

 

This attitude is really insulting.  Do you have any idea how much practice and study time is required to be a "top shooter"?  You don't seem to.

 

While I was never a "Top Shooter", I did win a state match with over 200 shooters.  I like to joke that it was the most expensive belt buckle I ever won (mostly stock Vaqueros, a Marlin rifle, and a Stoeger SxS with pistols and rifle in 45 LC).  I think I shot somewhere north of 100,000 rounds (yes, a hundred thousand) in practice in the 15 months it took to get there.  I spent countless hours dry fire on transitions and shotgun loading (over 45 minutes a day, 6 days a week).  I read a LOT.  Books by Brian Enos, Lanny Basham, Harvey Penick (phenominal books), etc.  I studied those books.  I asked questions via phone and internet.  So many people were willing to help that I compiled the info into a book and sold out 2 printings.  Topics I read ranged from shooting, to golf, to zen, to philosophy. to psychology.  So much of what it takes goes on between the ears.  Getting to that level takes a tremendous amount of work, and dedication.  Staying there takes even more.

 

Continuing to find the motivation and desire to keep working at it is yet another level.

 

STOP disparaging our top shooters.  They work their asses off to get there.  Some have gone on to win at Steel Challenge, others to teach Marine Snipers, I know one that was recruited by the US Army marksmanship team.  Our top shooters are phenomenal shooters.  Big, small, near, far, it doesn't matter.  They know what they need to see to make the shot.  Get rid of that attitude.  Disparaging them says a lot more about you than it does about them. 

 

</soapbox>

 

Maybe I'm reading more into that statement than was intended.  But that's how it comes across.  The bottom line is that Phantom is right.  I've even personally tested it using some of our local matches as test subjects.  Stage times go up.  Stage times for the middle shooters go up a lot more than stage times for the local top shooters.  Stage times for the bottom of the pack shooters go up a LOT.  On average for a stage with mixed distance pistol targets out to 20 yards, top shooters go up about 5-10%, middle of the pack shooters 20-30%, bottom of the pack shooters around 50% (or more).  Misses go up too, scaling up as you go down the pack with the top shooters trending as the most accurate.  Plenty of data to back this up. 

 

Incidentally, as stage times go up, the relative penalty for a miss goes down.

 

Respectfully,

Doc

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

You are right.  It won't be at the same speed that they shoot close targets. 

 

<

 

Incidentally, as stage times go up, the relative penalty for a miss goes down.

 

Respectfully,

Doc

Sorry to edit you so heavily Doc please forgive me.  When the miss penalty goes down as a percentile  that heavily favors the good shooters, because they can outrun a miss. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

Sorry to edit you so heavily Doc please forgive me.  When the miss penalty goes down as a percentile  that heavily favors the good shooters, because they can outrun a miss. 

 

Well, you can't really "outrun" a miss.  An extra 5 seconds is an extra 5 seconds.  But the longer stages get, the smaller the relative penalty.  But I get what you're saying and we're pretty much in agreement.

 

You can't really do anything to "level the playing field".  The really good shooters got really good because they put in the work.  Which was the point of my post.  Trying to disadvantage them just negatively affects everyone else more.

Edited by Doc Shapiro

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55 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

This attitude is really insulting....

STOP disparaging our top shooters.

Doc,

I certainly wasn't trying to insult anyone. Far from it.

But a lot of folks sure seem to be offended.

I was saying that Artie's criteria matched Sharpshooter, and that we've been shooting it for years.

That's my interest, and while lots of folks shoot Sharpshooter a lot faster than I do, I still take pride in hitting targets that are farther out.

That was my point. Nothing more.

 

Here's where it gets distorted.

1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

This attitude is really insulting.  Do you have any idea how much practice and study time is required to be a "top shooter"?  You don't seem to.

I'm not casting dispersions at any shooters. I'm sure that the Top Shooters all worked as hard as you did to get where they are. They deserve to be called Top Shooters.

And I'm totally amazed when I see the youngsters on u-tube blowing their targets away in seconds.

 

But that's not what I was saying.

2 hours ago, Brazos John said:

But I was wondering about the Top Shooters being able to hit the Sharpshooter targets at their usual speed.

Probably not...

If anything, it was sort of a challenge to the Top Shooters to try Sharpshooter. Step outside of your comfort zone. Blow me out of the water, as you're so capable of doing. I'll study you, and improve my own abilities. And I won't be insulted that you out-shoot me. I'll revel in the competition.

 

But since Sharpshooter isn't a SASS category (is it?), I guess we won't be able to go head-to-head. Unless you come to Texas and shoot with us. I'll introduce you to Doc Boedecker, Artie Fly's corpsman.

And so we come full circle.

 

That's what's great about this sport.

Y'all can shoot how you want, and we Sharpshooters can shoot the way we want.

 

Brazos

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7 minutes ago, Brazos John said:

Doc,

I certainly wasn't trying to insult anyone. Far from it.

But a lot of folks sure seem to be offended.

I was saying that Artie's criteria matched Sharpshooter, and that we've been shooting it for years.

That's my interest, and while lots of folks shoot Sharpshooter a lot faster than I do, I still take pride in hitting targets that are farther out.

That was my point. Nothing more.

 

Here's where it gets distorted.

I'm not casting dispersions at any shooters. I'm sure that the Top Shooters all worked as hard as you did to get where they are. They deserve to be called Top Shooters.

And I'm totally amazed when I see the youngsters on u-tube blowing their targets away in seconds.

 

But that's not what I was saying.

If anything, it was sort of a challenge to the Top Shooters to try Sharpshooter. Step outside of your comfort zone. Blow me out of the water, as you're so capable of doing. I'll study you, and improve my own abilities. And I won't be insulted that you out-shoot me. I'll revel in the competition.

 

But since Sharpshooter isn't a SASS category (is it?), I guess we won't be able to go head-to-head. Unless you come to Texas and shoot with us. I'll introduce you to Doc Boedecker, Artie Fly's corpsman.

And so we come full circle.

 

That's what's great about this sport.

Y'all can shoot how you want, and we Sharpshooters can shoot the way we want.

 

Brazos

 

Awesome!  You could have phrased it better, more as an invitation.  I'd love to give it a go. 

 

Part of the problem with this format (internet forums) is that we lose all of the body language and discussion value that occurs in a face to face chat.  As a result, sometimes we have to be super careful how stuff is phrased so it isn't taken out of context.


Hope we can get together sometime and laugh about this over a drink.


Doc

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10 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Awesome!  You could have phrased it better, more as an invitation.  I'd love to give it a go. 

 

Part of the problem with this format (internet forums) is that we lose all of the body language and discussion value that occurs in a face to face chat.  As a result, sometimes we have to be super careful how stuff is phrased so it isn't taken out of context.


Hope we can get together sometime and laugh about this over a drink.


Doc

I existed in the Texas area for 11 years and know all about the "Sharpshooters" category.

 

It's filled with folks that can't or won't try to develope speed and bitch about targets being to close. They like the idea of making SASS more of a bullseye match.

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I existed in the Texas area for 11 years and know all about the "Sharpshooters" category.

 

It's filled with folks that can't or won't try to develope speed and bitch about targets being to close. They like the idea of making SASS more of a bullseye match.

 

Phantom

We have seen this attitude in southern Nevada as well.

Folks refuse to go faster and spout their holier than thou opinion about how "accuracy" should trump speed.

 

They ALL, without exception, claim they respect fast shooters - but follow it up with, "If the targets were further out - then you'd see who can really shoot"

 

Because, for all their claims to the contrary, they all believe that they would move to the top of the score sheet if only the targets were set "correctly".

 

They wouldn't.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Posted (edited)

I believe much of this has already been figured out, is being done today, and is popular (but maybe not official under SASS specifically)?? To do well and win using Cody Dixon targets (eg. lever or single-shot in rifle caliber) or in Sharpshooter (eg. pistol caliber rifle on CD targets, pistols using regular rifle distance targets) you still have to go pretty darn fast. And it's a heck a lot of fun being able to bring out all sort of different firearms to try and master.  Shooting CAS like "Machinegun Kelly" is fun too! And the best part is this can all be done easily within the same match.

Edited by Slimy
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I love shooting Cody Dixon. If it’s offered, I’m shooting it. By far my favorite Category. I’ve tried sharpshooter, but don’t care for it as much.
 

I think last year at the Texas State Match Cody Dixon was one of the larger categories, 13 shooters in lever, 11 in single shot. (If my somewhat feeble memory serves!) at any rate, a popular Category. 

 

I practice (not as much as I should), think about stage lay-out, try to think of ways to “game” the stage. I want to do my very best (safely & within the rules) I’m not trying to make any statements about target distances or how fast other shooters are. I just play the game I prefer. 
 


 

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2 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I love shooting Cody Dixon. If it’s offered, I’m shooting it. By far my favorite Category. I’ve tried sharpshooter, but don’t care for it as much.
 

I think last year at the Texas State Match Cody Dixon was one of the larger categories, 13 shooters in lever, 11 in single shot. (If my somewhat feeble memory serves!) at any rate, a popular Category. 

 

I practice (not as much as I should), think about stage lay-out, try to think of ways to “game” the stage. I want to do my very best (safely & within the rules) I’m not trying to make any statements about target distances or how fast other shooters are. I just play the game I prefer. 
 


 

We need more cowboys with that attitude!

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Posted (edited)

We all enjoy this discussion about Speed and Accuracy, target/stage setups, etc..... to try and separate Champion shooters, etc......

 

I know that Doc, Phantom, Creeker, Capt Bill and others know this but I thought I would remind many of you that

all the speed and accuracy in the world don't mean diddly squat if your TRANSITIONS are lacking.

 

There are MANY shooters in SASS that are fast........real fast.  Some are even considered 'one of the fastest' in some areas.

But, because they don't practice and use TRANSITIONS, they lose out on the Caddy.   And quite frankly, many of those

real fast shooters don't care about the Caddy.   They got nothing to prove to anyone and certainly don't seek

the fame and fortunes of being a Champion.   They just enjoy the friendship and shooting fun.

 

So before anyone gets the idea that changing this or that about a stage to either enhance a group of shooters OR

hinder a group of shooters, ya better figure out a way to tie one arm behind the Champions backs because those top TRANSITIONERS

will still be displaying those nice buckles at the next match.

 

All this of course is just my opinion.  As I've stated before, my saddle sits low to the ground but thats my view from it.

 

Y'all have a great 4th of July weekend.   As for me, I gotta go to a wedding.   I'll have a son-in-law by sundown.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's filled with folks that can't or won't try to develope speed and bitch about targets being to close. They like the idea of making SASS more of a bullseye match.

 

10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Folks refuse to go faster and spout their holier than thou opinion about how "accuracy" should trump speed.

 

10 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Hope we can get together sometime and laugh about this over a drink.

Doc,

I would love to. You seem willing to read the words that are written.

Others get on their soapbox and go on and on, regardless of the original topic.

11 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

…. sometimes we have to be super careful how stuff is phrased so it isn't taken out of context.

You're right. What started out as a simple observation has turned into a hate-filled barrage that went way off-topic.

Very disappointing.

Brazos

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Y'all have a great 4th of July weekend.   As for me, I gotta go to a wedding.   I'll have a son-in-law by sundown.

 

..........Widder

 

I sure hope he knows about the customary gun gifts you're due. :ph34r:

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2020 at 8:51 AM, Artie Fly, SASS #25397 said:

And sometimes, I just like to kick over the hornet's nest to see what comes out!

Thanks a lot, Artie!

I made a comment, and the hornets came swarming at me.

How's the toe?

Doc says he wants his bandages back.

Brazos

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1 hour ago, Brazos John said:

 

 

Doc,

I would love to. You seem willing to read the words that are written.

Others get on their soapbox and go on and on, regardless of the original topic.

You're right. What started out as a simple observation has turned into a hate-filled barrage that went way off-topic.

Very disappointing.

Brazos

 

Oh please... hate filled:lol:

 

It's a contrary opinion based on personal experience.

 

Your ad hominem attack is far from Cowboy like.

 

Phantom

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Differing discussion points do not equate to hate.    If you disagree with that, does that mean you hate me?

 

And Disagreements do not equate to an argument.  If you Disagree with that, does that mean you are arguing with me?

 

Remember when your high school 'first date' gave you a little kiss on the jaw when you took her home

and walked her to the door.   It didn't mean she was deeply in love with you.   It just meant that she

was glad to get back home on time before her daddy started looking for her......... :D

 

..........Widder

 

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13 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I existed in the Texas area for 11 years and know all about the "Sharpshooters" category.

 

It's filled with folks that can't or won't try to develope speed and bitch about targets being to close. They like the idea of making SASS more of a bullseye match.

 

Phantom

 

Did you ever hear me bitch about targets being too close?  I did enjoy the extra difficulty factor in Sharpshooter category the first year the Texicans offered it. 

 

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

,,,They ALL, without exception, claim they respect fast shooters - but follow it up with, "If the targets were further out - then you'd see who can really shoot"

 

Because, for all their claims to the contrary, they all believe that they would move to the top of the score sheet if only the targets were set "correctly".

 

They wouldn't.

 

To  be clear, the discussion was about Sharpshooter category when you made those comments.  "ALL without exception" is a pretty dang broad brush.  And it would be wrong.

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3 hours ago, Brazos John said:

Thanks a lot, Artie!

I made a comment, and the hornets came swarming at me.

How's the toe?

Doc says he wants his bandages back.

Brazos

Wow Brazos, I thought this thread was long dead!  The toe is fine, you can check another thread for a full description of the incident.  Tell Doc he will have to go to the Katy Herman Memorial ER for his bandages.  Have him look for a REALLY cute young brunette doctor who unwrapped me!

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2 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

Did you ever hear me bitch about targets being too close?  I did enjoy the extra difficulty factor in Sharpshooter category the first year the Texicans offered it. 

 

 

To  be clear, the discussion was about Sharpshooter category when you made those comments.  "ALL without exception" is a pretty dang broad brush.  And it would be wrong.

Please note Abilene that I said it's filled with, not it's filled with nothing but...and as you would acknowledge, every rule has an exception.

 

Also, it's not an "Extra" difficulty factor. It's an emphasis on Long Range shooting. So you're eliminate the difficulty of running your guns fast. Here in lies the little part that many will pretend doesn't exist; Speed is not difficult or should not be weighed equally with hitting far targets of moderate size.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

...Also, it's not an "Extra" difficulty factor. It's an emphasis on Long Range shooting. So you're eliminate the difficulty of running your guns fast. Here in lies the little part that many will pretend doesn't exist; Speed is not difficult or should not be weighed equally with hitting far targets of moderate size.

 

Phantom

 And I will totally disagree with you on that.  It IS an extra difficulty factor, and Sharpshooters will always place down lower in the overall standings.  Sharpshooters are only competing against other Sharpshooters, but it is a timed match, is it not?  Speed within the category is just as important as speed is within other categories (or the entire match), same with transitions.  Dusty Leather is pretty darn fast at regular distances, but he is also impressively fast at the longer targets, which is why he wins the category at the Texicans.

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On 3/20/2020 at 8:36 AM, wyliefoxEsquire said:

What about J.T. Wild's concept of an "open" category?  Some club in Texas used this concept.

 

 

 

You already have an "OPEN" category..... It's called COWBOY/COWGIRL

 

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