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Kid Ray

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Stage has 3 pistol targets, Calls for 2 rounds on the first, 3 rounds on the second and 5 rounds on the third.  Shooter pulls first pistol and fires one shot on target one and a primer backs out and jams pistol with 4 unfired rounds.  He declares pistol dead and pulls second pistol goes straight to the third target and places the 5 rounds it.  Continues the rest of the stage correctly, Whats The Call?

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4 misses

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Four unfired rounds.....5 x 4=20 second penalty.

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4 minutes ago, Kid Ray said:

Stage has 3 pistol targets, Calls for 2 rounds on the first, 3 rounds on the second and 5 rounds on the third.  Shooter pulls first pistol and fires one shot on target one and a primer backs out and jams pistol with 4 unfired rounds.  He declares pistol dead and pulls second pistol goes straight to the third target and places the 5 rounds it.  Continues the rest of the stage correctly, Whats The Call?

No target order was specified, just # of rds on each. 

4 misses. 

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14 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

No target order was specified, just # of rds on each. 

4 misses. 

Even if the target order was specified, '2 rounds on the first, 3 rounds on the second and 5 rounds on the third', in that order, it is still just 4 misses.

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Shooter has a choice whether to take the 4 misses for the unfired rounds in the middle of the shooting string or continue the string with the 2nd revolver; then reload the 2nd revolver to make them up at the end...same as for a squib or ejecting a rifle round mid-string.

RELOAD CHOICES 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Even if the target order was specified, '2 rounds on the first, 3 rounds on the second and 5 rounds on the third', in that order, it is still just 4 misses.

If the target order is specified as 1,2,3, then Pls explain why shooter wouldn't get a "P" for engaging target #1, then #3 and skipping the second target entirely.  Is that not engaging targets in wrong order? 

Never mind.  My brain woke up and I see what you're saying.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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6 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If the target order is specified as 1,2,3, then Pls explain why shooter wouldn't get a "P" for engaging target #1, then #3 and skipping the second target entirely.  Is that not engaging targets in wrong order? 

 

44 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Shooter has a choice whether to take the 4 misses for the unfired rounds in the middle of the shooting string or continue the string with the 2nd revolver; then reload the 2nd revolver to make them up at the end...same as for a squib or ejecting a rifle round mid-string.

RELOAD CHOICES 

 

 

 

http://www.oowss.com/SASS Rules Docs/Reload choices (edit Aug 2018).pdf

Quote

A shooter who ejects a rifle round in the middle of a shooting string has FOUR choices:

1) Re-engage same target; then reload at the end of the string for the last target = No Penalty

2) Re-engage same target w/NO reload = Miss for the ejected (unfired) round

3) Skip to next target w/NO reload = Miss

4) Skip to next target w/reload/return to re-engage skipped target = Procedural

 

FIVE SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. …

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.

 

To help understand this concept, a “MISS FLOW CHART” is found in Appendix C. It is also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.”

SHB - Penalty Overview

 

These same choices can be applied to a percussionist who experiences a "cap only" ignition in the middle of a revolver shooting string...

1) Re-engage the same target and recap the unfired chamber for the last target = NO penalty

2) Re-engage the same target and take the MISS on the last target of the shooting string instead.

3) Move on to the next target & NOT recap = MISS only for the unfired round.

4) Move on to the next target; recap & return to the skipped target = Procedural for HITTING the targets out of order (but no misses).

 

In this case, the shooter elected to take the misses for unfired rounds on shots 2,3,4, and 5 in the pistol string that were locked in the gun and continue the string with shot 6.

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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16 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If the target order is specified as 1,2,3, then Pls explain why shooter wouldn't get a "P" for engaging target #1, then #3 and skipping the second target entirely.  Is that not engaging targets in wrong order? 

 

Here is another way to look at it using the flow chart

 

SHB pg 41

Quote

Untitled.png.1a41d2843d31f673ca11aa61f24c7690.png

 

 

DID THE SHOOTER HIT ALL THE CORRECT TYPE OF TARGETS WITH LEGALLY ACQUIRED AMMO?

 

NO

 

ASSESS MISSES 

 

Score shooter with 4 misses for the 4 unfired rounds in pistol 1

 

WERE THE TARGETS HIT IN THE CORRECT ORDER EXCEPT FOR ANY MISSES?

 

YES - Target 1 was hit, Rounds 2-5 were scored as misses, round 6 hit the third target and that is where it was supposed to go.

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Simply...... 4 misses.

 

No more, no less!

 

..........Widder

 

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Had a similar issue at this past Sunday's match and had to explain to the one spotter that called a P why it wasn't for the same reason as this thread.

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   As opposed to shooter holstering after hitting the first target with 2 rounds and skipping the 2nd targets 3 rounds and finishing up with the last revolver on target 3 with 5 rounds.

Then, P and 3 misses correct?

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4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

   As opposed to shooter holstering after hitting the first target with 2 rounds and skipping the 2nd targets 3 rounds and finishing up with the last revolver on target 3 with 5 rounds.

Then, P and 3 misses correct?

Incorrect

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4 misses. And increase powder?

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9 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

   As opposed to shooter holstering after hitting the first target with 2 rounds and skipping the 2nd targets 3 rounds and finishing up with the last revolver on target 3 with 5 rounds.

Then, P and 3 misses correct?

The OP stage instructions are for a round count - no particular order. 

 

Why a shooter would holster after two rounds if there wasn't a malfunction doesn't make sense. 

 

But, the shooter could still shoot the first target twice, holster and draw second pistol and shoot the third target five times, holster the second pistol and redraw the first pistol and shoot the second target three times.  No call. 

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5 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Incorrect

   Incorrect because there is no specified order on the string, right?

If directions were:

Put 2 rounds on p1, then 3 rounds on p2, then 5 rounds on p3.

Shooter puts 2 rounds on p1 then holsters the first pistol and puts 5 rounds on p3 with 2nd pistol.

Then its p and 3 misses, right?

 

 

 

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Just now, Chief Rick said:

The OP stage instructions are for a round count - no particular order. 

 

Why a shooter would holster after two rounds if there wasn't a malfunction doesn't make sense. 

 

But, the shooter could still shoot the first target twice, holster and draw second pistol and shoot the third target five times, holster the second pistol and redraw the first pistol and shoot the second target three times.  No call. 

I know it doesn't make sense, but it happens. I'm looking for the P. I didnt say in my original reply what if it was a specified order and meant to.

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Just now, Tennessee williams said:

   Incorrect because there is no specified order on the string, right?

If directions were:

Put 2 rounds on p1, then 3 rounds on p2, then 5 rounds on p3.

Shooter puts 2 rounds on p1 then holsters the first pistol and puts 5 rounds on p3 with 2nd pistol.

Then its p and 3 misses, right?

 

 

 

Not if there's a malfunction with the first pistol and the shooter chooses to take the three misses on P2.

 

But then, the shooter couldn't holster the first pistol. It needs to be declared and grounded. 

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

I know it doesn't make sense, but it happens. I'm looking for the P. I didnt say in my original reply what if it was a specified order and meant to.

If the shooter starts to holster after the first two rounds as TO I'm hollering THREE MORE. 

 

If they still holster and shoot P3 with five rounds, and they don't attempt to re-engage P2...

 

That has me thinking. 

 

Still just three misses for the three unfired rounds in the first revolver. The shooter is choosing to take three misses on P2.

 

If they re-engage P2 after P3 - then it's a P.

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13 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

If the shooter starts to holster after the first two rounds as TO I'm hollering THREE MORE. 

 

If they still holster and shoot P3 with five rounds, and they don't attempt to re-engage P2...

 

That has me thinking. 

 

Still just three misses for the three unfired rounds in the first revolver. The shooter is choosing to take three misses on P2.

 

If they re-engage P2 after P3 - then it's a P.

And this is why I posed my question for the people that didnt know. It is easy for people to get confused on this and I wanted to show the difference to them.

 

Chief, you are wrong because the shooter didnt engage the targets in the correct order. The 3 rounds left in the revolver are SCORED as misses. This isn't a miss causing a P. It is in fact a P plus the 3 misses. Go back to that miss flow chart and see if they were engaged in the correct order.

Edited by Tennessee williams

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

And this is why I posed my question for the people that didnt know. It is easy for people to get confused on this and I wanted to show the difference to them.

 

Chief, you are wrong because the shooter didnt engage the targets in the correct order. The 3 rounds left in the revolver are SCORED as misses. This isn't a miss causing a P. It is in fact a P plus the 3 misses. Go back to that miss flow chart and see if they were engaged in the correct order.

I'll do that when I'm able to get to s computer this afternoon. Can't see it on the phone. 

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12 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

   As opposed to shooter holstering after hitting the first target with 2 rounds and skipping the 2nd targets 3 rounds and finishing up with the last revolver on target 3 with 5 rounds.

Then, P and 3 misses correct?

 

You've have just instigated another hour long phone conversation today..... :o

 

You interjected the word 'opposed'.

 

Sooooo, you are probably correct in the assumption of "As opposed to...".

 

But like Grandma use to say, they ain't no eggs in the hen house today.

Go to the barn and milk the cow.

 

Interpretation:  "You may think you got the bull by the horns, but there are 

udder ways to milk the cow".

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054

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17 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

You've have just instigated another hour long phone conversation today..... :o

 

You interjected the word 'opposed'.

 

Sooooo, you are probably correct in the assumption of "As opposed to...".

 

But like Grandma use to say, they ain't no eggs in the hen house today.

Go to the barn and milk the cow.

 

Interpretation:  "You may think you got the bull by the horns, but there are 

utter ways to milk the cow".

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

*udder :ph34r:

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10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Just don't milk the bull. :D

Er... try to milk the bull.

They's pros what get paid big money for milkin' bulls.

I ain't one of 'em though. 

I don't get paid much at all! Bwahahahahaha!

Sorry, no coffee yet.

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42 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

*udder :ph34r:

 

fixed it.

I ain't had my morning oat meal either..... :D

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

And this is why I posed my question for the people that didnt know. It is easy for people to get confused on this and I wanted to show the difference to them.

 

Chief, you are wrong because the shooter didnt engage the targets in the correct order. The 3 rounds left in the revolver are SCORED as misses. This isn't a miss causing a P. It is in fact a P plus the 3 misses. Go back to that miss flow chart and see if they were engaged in the correct order.

In your scenario, the first two shots are placed on the correct target.

IF THE SHOOTER HAS A MALFUNCTION in his revolver and declares that malfunction then the shooter has two choices from this point.

1 - He can continue on with his functioning revolver starting on target #2 and reload 3 rounds at any time to complete the string without misses. If he does not reload he acquires 3 misses for the unfired rounds.

2 - He can continue on with the functioning revolver starting on target #3. In this case he cannot reload and he acquires the misses for the unfired rounds in revolver #1.

 

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4 misses and shooter gets grief for the unforeseen future for crappy reloading, he also has to buy lunch for everyone on the posse. 

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2 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

In your scenario, the first two shots are placed on the correct target.

IF THE SHOOTER HAS A MALFUNCTION in his revolver and declares that malfunction then the shooter has two choices from this point.

1 - He can continue on with his functioning revolver starting on target #2 and reload 3 rounds at any time to complete the string without misses. If he does not reload he acquires 3 misses for the unfired rounds.

2 - He can continue on with the functioning revolver starting on target #3. In this case he cannot reload and he acquires the misses for the unfired rounds in revolver #1.

 

You started out with "in your scenario" and then made up a whole a different one. Was no stated malfunction. Don't care what he could have done, just what he did. There was no comet flying overhead during the match, and he had bacon and eggs for breakfast.

Is my scenario correct, or do you disagree?

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