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travelin kid #51083

Timer Operators......

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1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

If you end up on the wrong target, it's a P no matter how you got there.  

 

Unless it's an ammo malfunction... like one of my percussion caps won't pop, re-engage the same target and end up shy one target and have forgotten to wear my capper around my neck... then it's a Miss, no P... a fair amount of cussin' under my breath, (or quackin' iff'n I have my duc call!) :lol:

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40 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

Unless it's an ammo malfunction... like one of my percussion caps won't pop, re-engage the same target and end up shy one target and have forgotten to wear my capper around my neck... then it's a Miss, no P... a fair amount of cussin' under my breath, (or quackin' iff'n I have my duc call!) :lol:

Never go to a match without your duc call. That is insurance you won't need it. ;-)

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1 hour ago, McCandless said:

 

Unless it's an ammo malfunction... like one of my percussion caps won't pop, re-engage the same target and end up shy one target and have forgotten to wear my capper around my neck... then it's a Miss, no P... a fair amount of cussin' under my breath, (or quackin' iff'n I have my duc call!) :lol:

 

If you shoot the wrong target at the end of the string shooting the full number of shots, it's a P.  If you're one short because you ejected one or had a non fire, it's a no call.

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2 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

If you're one short because you ejected one or had a non fire, it's a no call.

 

Wrong!   If you are one shot short of the rounds to be fired, that is a "round-not-fired" condition, and the penalty is "Scored as a Miss"

 

Good luck, GJ

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5 pistol targets shot in p1 thru p5 sweep same direction both pistols. Shooter fires 4 out of first pistol and holsters before firing the 5th round on the 5th target. Fires all 5 in correct sweep from 2nd pistol.

P AND a miss

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Posted (edited)

Sometimes it’s not the TOS fault AT ALL but that of the peanut gallery!  Example: I was TO and shooter started at horse with SG... then got rifle off horse and was supposed to shoot rifle targets from same position. Shooter grabs rifle and takes two giant steps forward before I could stop him and levers rifle while peanut gallery yells BACK UP.  Shooter moved with cocked gun. He didn’t blame me.

 

Personally, and I told the posse, I will NEVER EVER tell a shooter with a loaded (all guns are always loaded) gun in his/her hands to back up because the danger is that he/she will TURN AROUND and sweep (at best) everyone. Once the shooter took the two steps forward he’d earned a P.  Not really big deal.. We had it - most of the time the TO and shooter “have it” and don’t need the hollering.  I pay VERY close attention to the shooter and count shots and yes, I’ve made mistakes, however, I think the hollering from the gallery is worse... but, that said, it’s way easier to blame the person with the timer...unless she is me and has a Bullwhip...a bullwhip APP on my phone. No one will let me have a REAL bullwhip or bullhorn. I really want a bullhorn. 

 

PS I will try to restart a shooter if he/she fumbles or something. 

 

Great big hugs!

Scarlett

Edited by Scarlett
Typo
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7 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 No one will let me have a REAL bullwhip or bullhorn.

 

Oh yeah! I probably shouldn't be allowed to have a bullwhip either, but what a great idea! Yes the "Peanut Gallery" can to often steer the shooter in the wrong direction. 

 

Tully

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I have spent a lot of time running the timer. No doubt that there have always been shooters that have blamed the T.O. for the mistakes that they made. The 170 call is one that is often disputed rather heavily. One of the hardest situations is when a shooter pulls his/her pistol at the wrong location, and the T.O. yells  "Move", not knowing that the shooter has already cocked the pistol. The shooter moves and then gets a SDQ. When a T.O. is slow to announce that a Shotgun Target isn’t down, it puts some shooter’s over the edge.

A problem that I often see in today's game is the tendency to over use the "Benefit of Doubt”  I'm very big on cutting all the slack possible, and NOT being a "Hard Ass", and in fact trying to find a way to NOT penalize the shooter. I find it more difficult to get folks to be Posse Leaders and T.O. today, than I did yesterday. One reason is because of all the rules, clarifications, the fact that it can take away from your own game. Being a Good T.O. means being a Benevolent Dictator.

 

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7 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Being a Good T.O. means being a Benevolent Dictator.

 

I like that attitude.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 10/3/2019 at 6:33 PM, Tennessee williams said:

5 pistol targets shot in p1 thru p5 sweep same direction both pistols. Shooter fires 4 out of first pistol and holsters before firing the 5th round on the 5th target. Fires all 5 in correct sweep from 2nd pistol.

P AND a miss

 I'd call the Procedural, but accept that the miss resulted directly  from the "P",  therefore no miss (double jeopardy rule).  But he also ends up at the ULT with a reholstered pistol with a live round still in the magazine. 

So "P" and Minor Safety. 

Thoughts? 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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49 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 I'd call the Procedural, but accept that the miss resulted directly  from the "P",  therefore no miss (double jeopardy rule).  But he also ends up at the ULT with a reholstered pistol with a live round still in the magazine. 

So "P" and Minor Safety. 

Thoughts? 

I believe the call is a miss only.  If this shooting string was with the rifle and the shooter ejected the 5th round and continue with the 6th round on targets 1-5 as specified then it would only be a miss. 

Since four rounds were fired with the first pistol and reholstered then the hammer is down on an empty with the next round being a live round. An unfired round left in a revolver is a miss unless under the hammer which is not the case here. 

 

Pleasant

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Pleasant , SASS #25245 L said:

I believe the call is a miss only.  If this shooting string was with the rifle and the shooter ejected the 5th round and continue with the 6th round on targets 1-5 as specified then it would only be a miss. 

Since four rounds were fired with the first pistol and reholstered then the hammer is down on an empty with the next round being a live round. An unfired round left in a revolver is a miss unless under the hammer which is not the case here. 

 

Pleasant

Disagree.  

I guess it matters whether the stage directions call for a continuous ten shot (two pistol) sweep, or two five shot Sweeps.  If the former, then he would have had to fire a round at the fifth target before going back to P1.  So he had a "P" for shooting targets out of order.  But if the latter case, then the unfired round was just a miss,  just as it would have been if it had misfired.  And in that latter case, what happened with the second pistol would be unrelated to either the "P" or miss. 

But if he had an unfired round, it would either have to be discharged downrange before ending the pistol string, be declared a bad gun and grounded, or or become a minor safety when he arrived at the ULT with a live round in the revolver magazine-- just as it would be a Minor Safety to get there with a live round in the magazine or on the carrier of a rifle.  If the gun was grounded, a range official would need to carry the gun to the ULT.   It could not be reholstered. 

Is that a correct call? 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 I'd call the Procedural, but accept that the miss resulted directly  from the "P",  therefore no miss (double jeopardy rule).  But he also ends up at the ULT with a reholstered pistol with a live round still in the magazine. 

So "P" and Minor Safety. 

Thoughts? 

 

1 hour ago, Pleasant , SASS #25245 L said:

I believe the call is a miss only.  If this shooting string was with the rifle and the shooter ejected the 5th round and continue with the 6th round on targets 1-5 as specified then it would only be a miss. 

Since four rounds were fired with the first pistol and reholstered then the hammer is down on an empty with the next round being a live round. An unfired round left in a revolver is a miss unless under the hammer which is not the case here. 

 

Pleasant

I believe you both to misunderstand the term "a miss can't cause a P"(and no such thing as not calling a miss resulting from a P).

What that means is: 

Just say it's a 10 target sweet to be simple. The shooter engages targets 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 misses 9,10. The shooter ENGAGED all the targets in the correct order so no P. Only the miss.

In my scenario the shooter engaged targets 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5. He did not ENGAGE the targets in the correct order so it's a P. He also left one pistol round in the revolver which is SCORED as a miss. So P and a miss. This isn't a situation where a miss cannot cause a p.

Pleasant, you are correct about the rifle sequence. The difference is with the rifle sequence, the shooter engaged the target. Not so in my scenario.

DDD no minor safety. We walk around with loaded revolvers all the time.

 

This is one of those situations that gets called wrong which is why I used it as an example.

Edited by Tennessee williams
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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

DDD no minor safety. We walk around with loaded revolvers all the time.

We also walk around stages with live rounds in a rifle magazine or with shotgun rounds in the chamber of an open shotgun.  But if a live rifle round comes out at the ULT when we work the rifle lever for the ULTO, we get charged with a Minor Safety, unless the round is in the chamber (then SDQ) - - or unless the rifle string was the last shooting string, rifle action is open, and we did not lose contact with it at the ULT before we discover the live round (no call).  

If the SG contains a live round in the chamber (gun open) at the ULT, I would assume it is a SDQ also, but I've never heard of that happening.  

 My understanding is that rounds loaded in any gun on the stage must be discharged downrange, unless the gun is declared malfunctioning and grounded. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Shooting string – shots from one type of firearm prior to use of the next type of firearm engaged. 

SHB p.45

Quote

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target. 

SHB p.44

 

"Two 5-shot sweeps" is a single shooting string, with each fired shot assigned to a target.

The targets MUST be engaged/hit "1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5"
In this scenario:

Quote

5 pistol targets shot in p1 thru p5 sweep same direction both pistols. Shooter fires 4 out of first pistol and holsters before firing the 5th round on the 5th target. Fires all 5 in correct sweep from 2nd pistol.

P AND a miss

 

The 5th "unfired round" in the first revolver is a "miss" (under SASS definition).

The 5th round fired is assigned to target #5, whether it is fired from revolver #1 or #2.
If that round hits target #1, it is a "
P".

If the 5th round from revolver #1 remains unfired, it is only a "miss".

NO MSV.

SDQ if it is under the hammer.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add reference
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The simplest explanation of  "A miss cannot cause a procedural" (i.e. Double Jeopardy") is that a round fired at a target "out of order" & fails to hit it is only a miss.

It would be a "P" only if the target was HIT "out of order"

 

E.g.:

Two rifle targets 30 feet apart.

Stage instruction is to alternate 10 shots starting on the right target. (R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L)

Shooter fires first shot at the left target (obvious due to the target spread), but misses it.

That is only a miss.

No "P".
If the shooter then fires the 2nd shot at the left target, alternating from that point (with no additional misses), the score for the rifle string is
1 miss.

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2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

...

.., or become a minor safety when he arrived at the ULT with a live round in the revolver magazine cylinder-- just as it would be a Minor Safety to get there with a live round in the magazine or on the carrier of a rifle.

NO. Unless the unfired round is under the hammer, (SDQ) there is NO MSV for an unfired round in a revolver.

...

 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

My understanding is that rounds loaded in any gun on the stage must be discharged downrange, unless the gun is declared malfunctioning and grounded

 

There are other ways to handle this! 

 

Run the action and jack live rounds out.   Lever and pump guns.

Punch revolver rounds out with ejector.

Open and shuck or pick out s/g rounds (double or break open shingle shot)

 

All with the supervision of the TO with muzzle downrange and not sweeping someone.

Or at unloading table if you have not laid the gun down and removed your hands from it.

 

None of that requires declaring a malfunction.  You may have just overloaded a gun, loaded a shotgun at the wrong time, or had to stop shooting for some reason.    Now, some of those events just mentioned may be a penalty gathering condition themselves (like coming to line with a revolver loaded with 6 rounds - thus having a live round under the hammer), but you do not (and usually don't) just fire extra rounds down range.  Timers pick up those extra shots, don't you know!  That adds to your stage time.

 

AND you may obtain permission to take loaded guns to the unloading table.  Like when you discover you did not bring any SG shells to the line.   Take loaded guns to ULT, clear, then go back to LT to try again.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

NO. Unless the unfired round is under the hammer, (SDQ) there is NO MSV for an unfired round in a revolver.

Thanks for clarifying on the MSV. 

  

 

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9 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Thanks for clarifying on the MSV. 

 

Quick reference is in the "Penalties Overview" section of the SHB pp. 22-24: (also available as a pdf doc )

Quote

 

Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include:

- Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

- Open, empty long guns that slip and fall – but do not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone. 
- Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45° down range. 

 

 

Note that the first two of the three refer to LONG GUNS.

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This past week, I got a phone call about this 5 plate sweep scenario situation.

Honestly, I immediately replied to the caller that it was a 'P' and a Miss, and explained

why.

 

He told me there was a BIG discussion about it on Facebook and then started telling me

who some of the Cowboys were who were calling it a Miss only.

 

Now Please don't misunderstand..... I don't study our rule books and I miss my fair share

of making correct calls.   BUT... I was surprised at the number of some of our more

knowledgable Pards who apparently were adamant in their 'Miss Only' calls.

 

This scenerio, in my opinion, is a Text Book Example of how we are suppose to view

'First 5 shots----- Second 5 shots', and not 1st pistol/2nd pistol.

 

That's my .02 on it, which is about the cost of that phone call..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Posted (edited)

.

Edited by Snakebite
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Posted (edited)

 

On 10/3/2019 at 9:33 PM, Tennessee williams said:

5 pistol targets shot in p1 thru p5 sweep same direction both pistols. Shooter fires 4 out of first pistol and holsters before firing the 5th round on the 5th target. Fires all 5 in correct sweep from 2nd pistol.

P AND a miss

 

Howdy Snakebite.

I didn't see where the OP stated anything about this particular scenario but I did see where TN Williams

used it as an example in the middle of this 2nd page.

I think that is where this example started up in the discussion.

 

In your last sentence above, when the last round (5th) does not fire for those fast shooters and they

holster that revolver (same for a slow shooter also) with that LIVE round under the hammer,  have they've not also just earned a SDQ?... :o

In situations such as this, I think that is why we want the shooter to either table the pistol or hand it off

to the TO, to prevent a live round from being under the hammer while holstered.

 

I agree with your options that shooter can have to correct the situation.   

The phone call I spoke of only mentioned the situation of 5 plates with the 1st revolver

being holstered after only 4 shots being fired.... and no other actions were taken to

remedy the shooters situation.

 

Its a good discussion.   And PWB is using up all his blue ink on it..... :lol:

 

BILL:  I edited this because I originally put MSV when it should have been a SDQ.

My bad.   And thanks for your CORRECT reference to the penalty.

 

And thanks to PWB for all his input on this.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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Posted (edited)

That would be a whoops!  I'm going to blame it on the phone screen, no way it's my eyes getting old.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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Snakebite,

The only way, in my view, you’d be able to verify “ target-engagement-round-didn’t-fire,” would be to check for ANY primer dent on the unfired round. (?)

 

This would take a lot of time, all considered, including:  stress on participants, discussion(sometimes argument), weapons handling(how many pairs of hands on that loaded weapon)(?).....where(?),.....who(?),.....a weak TO(maybe), posse size, etc., etc.    How quickly and safely could this scenario be resolved (the ULT)?   

Cat Brules

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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB page 23 under SDQ

 

Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

 

If it's declared dead the shooter can ground it or hand it off, preferably ground it.

 

Howdy Capt.

You've edited my post in your quote because I mentioned that very option in that post. 

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That would be a whoops!  I'm going to blame it on the phone screen, no way it's my eyes getting old.

 

Trust me..... I understand.   About the only thing that still works well on me is my nose.

 

Besides, the biggest problem I have with this thread is that reading it is keeping me from

browsing YouTube videos about guns and 4-wheel ATV's..... :D

 

CAPT:  your reference was correct.  My typing a MSV was not.   I should have typed in SDQ, of

which I have since corrected.   Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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I like the "benevolent Dictator" line!

 

My usual comment about a TO not being perfect (and especially being blamed for not being faster on the uptake than the ACTUAL SHOOTER - who wants to blame the TO for a P or whatever) is... "I'm worth what I'm being paid."

 

Extension question :      Has anyone else noticed how often these "blame-the-TO comments" come from folks who never run the timer themselves?  Just curious...

 

 

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It's not just the TO that gets blamed; some folks just have to find fault elsewhere. Spotters, peanut gallery, stage writer... anyone but themselves.

"I'm mad because bla, bla, bla and I'm not goin back to that club!" Sorry, we'll miss ya. Probably not.

I hate feeling that way, but everyone had to shoot the same thing. Why did someone else cause YOUR problem?

Yes I know, folks make mistakes. ROs DO cause problems sometimes, either by mistake or maybe because they're full of themselves.

But Constable Nelson makes an excellent point... no one gets paid for the work they put in. Appreciate that we have folks that put in the time, lick yer wounds and move on to the next stage. Beep...

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