UPDATE - 100 Year Old Hammered Double for CAS? Shorten the Barrels???

[Kansas City Munny]

I recently acquired a Central Arms Co. model 3012 double that I'm fairly sure was produced by J. Stevens around 1918-1919. The barrels are pretty long, but I may shoot Classic Cowboy from time to time and need a hammered double. The bore is bright ans shiny and it seems to function as it should. Barrels are marked "High Pressure Compressed Steel, Barrel and Lug Forged in One Piece". 

 

UPDATE - 

I had a shop measure the chambers with a chamber gauge and they measure just over 2-3/4". The smith was confident that the Winchester AA Light Target loads I'm normally shooting will work just fine in this piece. Again, not sure about the forcing cones as this was just a quick look over and chamber measurement while chatting with the shop guys. 

 

Another idea is to shoot it with the Aguila Mini Shot Shells. They're 1-3/4" long, and are readily available in lead # 7-1/2, 8 and 9 shot. Does anyone shoot these in CAS? Will they actually knock down a knock-down target?

 

Any thoughts?

[Blackwater 53393]

I shoot my 1893 Remington 10ga hammer double with full house Black Powder and high brass smokeless loads all the time. It was produced in 1895. Fun gun!! Heavy as a small field piece!!

[Kansas City Munny]

Sounds like I should try it at least. Need to have a smith give it a once over too. 

 

Winchester AA Light Target loads???

[Warden Callaway]

It's made well into the smokeless powder era and should have steel barrels.   Seeing that it has shiny barrels, it was not likely ever shot with black powder.  

 

The chambers are likely not compatible with modern folded crimp shells with plastic wads.  But a gunsmith can lengthen the chambers and improve the forcing cone. 

 

You did good.  One of the few post Damascus and black powder hammer guns to be made. 

 

The only negative is the hammers are too short and far apart for double cocking.  

[Kansas City Munny]

I thought the same thing on the hammers. Not really much to do about that.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I like it! Then again I haven't met a hammered double I don't like yet

[Trooper Ozzy]

Just run magtech all brass hulls cut to correct length or cut down and roll crimp plastic. That will eliminate chamber length problems. 

[Warden Callaway]

2 minutes ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

Just run magtech all brass hulls cut to correct length or cut down and roll crimp plastic. That will eliminate chamber length problems. 

 

That's what I do with my old shotguns.   

 

But I have a few Stevens that I had the chambers recut and it reduced the recoil noticeably. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

KC Munny ......

 

An excellent find.  Actually superb actually.  I ... Like Warden Callaway have a "thing" for Hammer Doubles.  I don't necessarily champion Damascus guns, but guns like yours are just the ticket.  You may wish to have the forcing cones lengthened as that will cut felt recoil appreciably.  Nice Find.

[watab kid]

very nice , i think i need a hammered double one of these days soon , 

[Cowboy Junky]

I shot a pump older than that......go for it. 

[Warden Callaway]

Check the rules on hammer modifications on shotguns.  There appears to be a lot of leeway with modifying pistol hammers.  There is a limit to how much you can modify the top lever.

[Kansas City Munny]

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I'll either give it a good once over or have a smith inspect it and maybe lengthen the forcing cones as suggested since that seems like a pretty good idea.

 

I'll also read the rule book on hammers. Maybe there is a way to make it a little faster to run...

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

That gun Looks like My Stevens M-235 that I have used for Cowboy For Years with both Black Powder and Smokie less ....

It is a very Strongly Made Gun ....

I also use a Husky Hammered Double made in 1884 in 16 ga. with both Black Powder and Smokieless , yes it is Nitro Proofed....

I also use a L. C. Smith Hammered Double Made in the 1920s in 16 ga. with both Powders ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Kansas City Munny]

From the information I found, I think this built by Stevens as the M-215.

 

Checked the handbook and didn't find anything to prohibit modifying the hammers a bit.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Check the rules on hammer modifications on shotguns.  There appears to be a lot of leeway with modifying pistol hammers.  There is a limit to how much you can modify the top lever.

 

2 hours ago, Kansas City Munny said:

...

Checked the handbook and didn't find anything to prohibit modifying the hammers a bit.

 

REF last two posts on this thread:

 

 

[Kansas City Munny]

Thanks for the link to the post Pale Wolf Brunelle. So I guess I'll have to figure out how to shoot the thing fast or run it at whatever speed the stock configuration allows. 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I have been shooting this little Stevens Model 250 for quite a few years now in CAS. It is my main match shotgun. I suspect it was made around 1905 or so.

 

I only shoot it with Black Powder, I have never put a round of smokeless through it.

 

The barrels were cut to 24" long at some point, so both barrels are now cylinder bore. I suspect the barrels were originally considerably longer.

 

 

 

 

 

Notice the similarity of the shape of the hammers between my shotgun and yours.

 

 

 

 

 

Yours is a boxlock, whereas mine is a side lock.

 

 

 

 

 

You will never win a speed contest with one of these. I suspect yours has the locking lug between the barrels like this. Makes it a little bit tough to throw in two shells at once. I never cock the hammers before opening the gun. It is actually impossible to do so. With my old Stevens, if the hammers are cocked before opening it, or while it is open, the right hammer interferes with the lever on top and the gun cannot be opened or closed with the hammers cocked. They must be cocked with the action closed. Yours might be the same, or you might be able to manipulate the lever with the hammers cocked. I could probably bend the lever a tad, and then I could cock the hammers with the gun open, but why in the world would I want to do that? I also never try to cock both hammers at once. I cock each one separately.

 

There are more important things than shooting fast.

 

 

 

 

 

I have no recommendation for Smokeless loads, like I say, I have only ever fired mine with Black Powder. If you want to shoot yours with Smokeless be sure to have it checked out by a smith who is familiar with old shotguns.

 

 

Cautionary note: Don't break it open real fast or real hard. One day the solder keeping the part that latches to the forearm let go on mine.  I was very unhappy.

 

 

 

 

 

Luckily Happy Trails was able to perform his magic and some spot TIG wilds are holding it together now. Not saying that will happen with yours, but these old girls were field guns. They were meant to be carried all day, and not slammed around the way we sometimes do with our guns.

 

[Warden Callaway]

 

I have a Stevens 250 "project gun" I didn't get to last winter.  It has a different lockup on the rib extension.  More like an LC Smith. 

 

[Griff]

I started this game in 1985 with a Riverside Arms double mfg'd in 1919.  Someone before me had rebuilt it and restocked it w/fancy walnut.  Internally it's the same as a Stevens 311.   Luckily so... as I've had to replace a couple of parts... after all it's a 100 years old and has been rode hard & put up wet more'n once!

 

Just make sure your chambers are for 2-¾" shells, & not 2-½".  

[Kansas City Munny]

Definitely going to have it looked over by a smith. I’ll verify the chamber length too!

 

Thanks for all the great information!

[Kansas City Munny]

How about shortening the barrels to 20-22"? Sacrilegeous? 30" seems a bit much for CAS... 

[Warden Callaway]

Shorter barrels will make it handier around props.  But a lot of folks like long barrels because they tend to point better.  

 

Sacrilegious?   I probably wouldn't cut them but it's not like it's a Parker or fine English double.  

 

One thing to mention.  Because it's a hammer double,  cutting it down won't change how it opens.  Cutting the barrels on guns with internal hammers can mess up how it opens and how far it stays open. 

[Kansas City Munny]

That was my thoughts too. I'm currently shooting a Stoeger Coach gun and it's really handy with 20" barrels. If I alter the Central Arms Co. double, I'll have the smith that checks it out do a proper job.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 hours ago, Kansas City Munny said:

How about shortening the barrels to 20-22"? Sacrilegeous? 30" seems a bit much for CAS... 

 

 

I have to profoundly disagree.

 

My first main match shotguns were a 20" 97 and an 18" Parker.   The 97 was my primary, the Parker came out once in a great while on a whim.   I eventually wanted to get a 97 with a long barrel, just to have one.   Found one with a 30" full choke barrel, and after using it once, it became my primary main match shotgun.   I hardly if ever miss with the longer barrel, which I did far to often with the shorter gun.

 

Just recently I found a Parker with 30" F/F barrels.   Bought it.   Used it.  Loved it.   Don't know if I'll switch full time, but I'll absolutely use it more often than I did the short barreled one.  And yes, the longer barreled one does kick way less than the short one does.

 

No, no hammers.

 

Please don't cut the barrels.   The gun may not have any collector value, but it's something that once done, can never be undone.  Give the longer ones a try, you just might like it.

 

 

[Kansas City Munny]

Of course. I do plan to shoot it before I consider shortening the barrels. It would be good to shoot back to back and compare to my Stoeger too.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

On 8/15/2019 at 5:38 PM, Kansas City Munny said:

I recently acquired a Central Arms Co. model 3012 double that I'm fairly sure was produced by J. Stevens around 1918-1919. The barrels are pretty long, but I may shoot Classic Cowboy from time to time and need a hammered double. The bore is bright ans shiny and it seems to function as it should. Barrels are marked "High Pressure Compressed Steel, Barrel and Lug Forged in One Piece". 

 

Any thoughts?

Looks too nice to cut down for me .

I would keep and shoot her just the way she is .

Just Sayin

Rooster 

[Kansas City Munny]

I do agree with that. It has survived 100 years as is. I'll buy a modern hammered coach gun to compliment my Stoeger which will allow me to shoot Classic Cowboy and I'll shoot this one as is.

[Warden Callaway]

10 minutes ago, Kansas City Munny said:

I do agree with that. It has survived 100 years as is. I'll buy a modern hammered coach gun to compliment my Stoeger which will allow me to shoot Classic Cowboy and I'll shoot this one as is.

 

That's the best decision.   I've got many of these old Stevens and they are fun to shoot but won't compete with my CZ-USA Hammer Coach gun.

[John Boy]

100 Year Old Hammered Double for CAS? Shorten the Barrels???

Cut the barrels and you will have tubes that are CYLINDER ... you will be sorry

[Kansas City Munny]

UPDATE - 

I had a shop measure the chambers with a chamber gauge and they measure just over 2-3/4". The smith was confident that the Winchester AA Light Target loads I'm normally shooting will work just fine in this piece. Again, not sure about the forcing cones as this was just a quick look over and chamber measurement while chatting with the shop guys. 

 

Another idea is to shoot it with the Aguila Mini Shot Shells. They're 1-3/4" long, and are readily available in lead # 7-1/2, 8 and 9 shot. Does anyone shoot these in CAS? Will they actually knock down a knock-down target?

 

Any thoughts?

[Brimstone Bill Willson]

They might be difficult to manipulate since they are so short.  I recently bought some of these Kent 2.5" low recoil shells to play with but I have yet to shoot them.

https://kentcartridge.com/us/shotshell/elite-low-recoil-training

[Kansas City Munny]

Hmmm...Hadn't thought about pulling them from a belt and actually loading them. Probably worth a try anyway. I'll see if there's a source in CA for the Kent 2.5" shells as well.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

24 inches is a nice length if you do cut it ...................

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

NAH.  Lots of really good opinions.  Personally, I never met barrels too short.  I happen to like 18 1/4 inch.  Should it happen at some later date you feel you need a tighter choke, just have choke tubes installed.  If you pattern a gun at CAS distance with open chokes you'll be surprised at just how small the pattern really is.