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Stopsign32v

Out of a 1866/73 is black powder 45 Colt a bad idea?

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Well I'm wanting to shoot some holy black out of my 1866 but it's in 45 Colt so I know there will be a lot of blow back. What can I expect if I shoot it with black powder and should I?

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Yes, you should.

 

Annealing brass will help or 

tight crimp and heavy bullet will help if you don't want to anneal.

 

I have heard of folks using 44-40 cases with a .45 bullet; I can't say I recommend that.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Yes, you should.

 

Annealing brass will help or 

tight crimp and heavy bullet will help if you don't want to anneal.

 

I have heard of folks using 44-40 cases with a .45 bullet; I can't say I recommend that.

 

Yes I should what?

 

I am shooting 250gr with what I would say is a hard crimp. See below, maybe I am wrong. I could run them all through to add more crimp if needed. The load is ffg @ 36gr through a drop tube.

 

48267517701_ee8bc0fc4a_b.jpg

Edited by Stopsign32v

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Just now, Stopsign32v said:

 

Yes I should what?

 

I am shooting 250gr with what I would say is a hard crimp. See below, maybe I am wrong.

 

48267517701_ee8bc0fc4a_b.jpg

 

Yes you should shoot black powder. That looks like that should be fine. Carry some Ballistol or PAM(Peroxide, Alchohol, Murphy's oil soap) and spray in the action every other stage. BP is really not as bad as some would leave to beleive.

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I'm more worried about the internals. Will I need to take the side plates off each time I shoot to clean inside?

 

 

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Very little if any blowback will get to the toggles. It is the carrier that will get dirty.  Shoot it, spray it with Ballistol every other stage,  clean it after the match while you are smilng.  Clean the internals some cold winter evening and smile some more with the memories.

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^^^ What he said.

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I shot 45 colt in my 73 for many years and I did take the side plates off after each match and cleaned the inside. I found it easier to clean each time and not try to remember the last time I cleaned the toggle system. Sometimes it really needed cleaning and sometimes not so bad. I shot 250 grain as well and squirted PAM every other stage just because I think it helped. When I (needed) another rifle I did switch to 44/40 only because I wanted to. Shoot the 45 and enjoy the Black. 

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Howdy

 

First of all, don't call it 'the holy black'. I've been shooting Black Powder for over 40 years, and I can't tell you how silly that sounds. Black Powder is just another propellant, there is nothing holy or sacred about it.

 

Second, you really don't need to use a drop tube to load Black Powder into the cartridges we use for our main match pistols and rifles. Just pour the powder in, and compress it about 1/16" to 1/8" when you seat the bullet. That's all there is to it.

 

I strongly suggest you look into the Big Lube bullets. The PRS 250 grain bullet is just the ticket in 45 Colt. You could go with the lighter J/P-200 grain bullet, but you want your cases to expand as much as possible in your rifle, and the 250 grain bullet will build more pressure to help the case expand to seal the chamber a bit better. Put the tightest crimp on the round you can and that's about all you can do. I wouldn't even bother annealing the cases until you see how things go.

 

I use 2.2CC of FFg Schuetzen under my PRS 250 grain bullets. That works out to about 33.3 grains. If you use a different powder, the weight will be slightly different, but I still suggest you use 2.2CC.

 

45%20Colt%20Components_zpsdor0dqed.jpg

 

 

 

 

OK, in full disclosure, I don't own any rifles chambered for 45 Colt, all mine are either 44-40 or 38-40. Yes, you will probably get a bit more blowback into the action of your '66 with 45 Colt than I do with 44-40. The test will be when you shoot it. That's why a '73 is so nice to shoot with Black Powder, just one screw to remove the side plates. With 44-40 the cases seal so well in my Henry that I can't remember the last time I removed the side plates. However the good thing is that because of the way the toggle link rifles are laid out, you will probably only get fouling in the area of the cartridge lifter. Probably not much back where the toggle links are. Not so with a '92 where everything gets coated with fouling.

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You're going to get "Blow-By."  Yes, you should, and maybe.  The 45 Colt case, without some ministration, will NOT expand to seal the chamber.  Especially the chamber in a Uberti built Toggle Link rifle.  There are several school of thought.  One is to shoot a very heavy bullet and a heavy powder charge.  Full case sort of thing. Not a complete solution.  Two is start with 44-40 cases, run them thru your 45 Colt dies (carefully), they will then fire form and seal the chamber nicely.  Three is to anneal you cases.  Well annealed, the 45 Colt will seal the chamber and run every bit as clean as a 44-40.  Your not going to get a ton of Blow-By back it the action.  Pull the side plates once in a while.  The Carrier Block and Carrier Mortice are going to suffer greatly from Blow-By.  As was suggested, keep a spitz bottle of PAM.  You will have to tear down after a match to completely clean the Carrier Block.

 

If you elect to anneal your cases, You may well only have to run a patch or three down the bore.  I shoot as many as 6 - 8 matches without a teardown with my 45 (6) rifles. 

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I've been shooting BP in my 45 Colt 1873 since I first got the gun in 1987... in SASS... 4 EOTs, many, many other matches... It's been shot with BP far more than smokeless, except for the last few years... not enough time to prepare or properly store firearms after a match   (it's a "work" thing)... But, early on in the rifle's life the carrier was "clearanced" so that there was about .010"-.015" clearance on each side of the carrier... Without spraying, wiping or any other form of cleaning, it will run about 11 stages before it gets too full of fouling to become "sluggish".    I ran that test a couple of years ago, shooting two back to back 6 stage monthlies at two different clubs.  It needed cleaning only for the last stage on the 2nd day.  

 

I've used anywhere between 25 & 32 grains of 2F Goex, a waxed card wad (think milk carton), SPG lube on a bullet cast of WW in a RCBS 45-225-CAV mold.  I've never annealed my cases, used any type filler, or other "techniques" in my loading.  today, I've generally settled on 30 gr.s of Goex "Cartridge", as I use up my last 18 or so cans... 

 

After about 10th or so reload of a case, I'll generally encounter a longitudinal split.  But... that's not necessarily certain... I've got cases that have not split in over 25 years... unknown number of reloads on them... some I can barely make out the head stamp.

 

My particular '73 was built in 1986, and 1st sold later that year... It has a very nice gently sloped ramp in the front of the carrier, so I can load bullets from your 255 grain down to 160s... but... based on the length of the carrier mortise, I HAVE to keep my OAL below 1.577".

 

My crimps generally look identical to what you've pictured above... and I have no problem with feeding, as long as there's an ogive to the bullet nose.  SWC's are problematic.

 

My newer 1873 & 1860 have more steeply sloped ramps in the front of the carrier, neither will reliably feed anything shorter than a 200 RFN.  But, those would be my smokeless rounds... and I'm less than enthusiastic with their use.    Neither of two later Uberti's would run for as long as the older Uberti 1873... Until I remembered about the "clearancing" of the carrier.  Now that they are also done, (a little less sloppily than the older gun), unless it's a particularly humid, sticky day, they'll both run all 6 stages for a full day of shooting without cleaning.  Cleaning over-nite is still warranted.  And I will take the side plates off and remove the carrier to ensure I get all the stuck on fouling from the carrier sides, the corners of the carrier mortise, and even inside the channel the round is carried from magazine to chamber in.  Have I ALWAYS followed that regimen?  No, and generally suffered no ill-effect.  

 

IMNSHO... everyone makes mountains outta molehills, in regards to the 45 Colt & BP... 

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An important thing to do when shooting BP in any magazine rifle is to CLEAN THE MAG TUBE, spring and follower about every 3 months.   Fouling gets in the tube, whether from firing or from cleaning solution when swabbing out the barrel and carrier shaft.   Corrosion occurs shortly thereafter because folks don't dry the mag tube (because that is hard to do without opening up the tube). 

 

So, put in a mag tube cap that you can easily remove without buggering it (I recommend one with a hex socket in it, so you can use an Allen wrench to remove and install).   Clean tube now.   Lube it with a dry lube that prevents rust (Eezox or Boeshield T9 work real well because the dry to a non-sticky film).   Put in a stainless spring and follower.   You will prevent rounds hanging up in the magazine if you repeat every 3 months of normal match shooting.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Is it a bad idea to shoot black powder .45 Colt in a toggle gun?

 

No, it's just more work than if you would shoot a gun chambered for .44WCF or .38WCF.

 

Good luck, GJ

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14 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

First of all, don't call it 'the holy black'. I've been shooting Black Powder for over 40 years, and I can't tell you how silly that sounds. Black Powder is just another propellant, there is nothing holy or sacred about it.

 

Thank you 

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The simplest solution is shoot 44-40. Much less grief and work than 45 Colt or any straight wall case. And I totally agree that calling black powder hoaky euphemisms like”holy black” grate on my nerves. If ya gotta use another name for it, gun powder is a good one. That’s what it’s been called for hundreds of years.

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9 minutes ago, Bull Skinner said:

The simplest solution is shoot 44-40.

 

Perfect, I'll just throw 44-40s into this rifle.

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The point is, the work, grief and expense of getting a 45 Colt chambered rifle to shoot BP efficiently will pay for the cost to trade the rifle for one in 44-40. Don’t ask how I know this. Been there and done that. Consequently I own 3 rifles chambered in 44-40. Two of them were obtained by trading my 45 Colt rifles for them. Best money I ever spent. 

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simple answer is no - not a bad idea , and yes i do 

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10 hours ago, Bull Skinner said:

The point is, the work, grief and expense of getting a 45 Colt chambered rifle to shoot BP efficiently will pay for the cost to trade the rifle for one in 44-40. Don’t ask how I know this. Been there and done that. Consequently I own 3 rifles chambered in 44-40. Two of them were obtained by trading my 45 Colt rifles for them. Best money I ever spent. 

 

What work and grief is there to get the 1866 to shoot 45 Colt black powder? Sounds like no extra grief to me. 

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Maybe worth mentioning: I went back through all the 2.5cc dipper black powder loads and increased the crimp of them 1/4 a turn of the die. This is as much as I want to go without me feeling like I'm over stressing the brass. I dropped several in my SAA chambers and they dropped right in and fell out so I don't think it's too much but might help with blow back. 

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I shot my 66 in .45 colt with a similar load and only needed to remove the side plate every two years or so ....

You will knock more crud into the action with careless bore cleaning than any other way ...

As for Blow-by my cases eject cleaner on the outside than most heathen Smokieless Shooters cases do ....

But if you want the best sealing outfit out there get a .38 WCF  ( .38-40 )

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Howdy Again

 

Talked to two pards yesterday who shoot Black Powder 45 Colt loads in their rifles.

 

One shoots a '73 and takes the sideplates off a few times a year to clean out any fouling.

 

The other shoots a Henry and anneals his brass. I seem to recall he said he has never had the side plates off. I could be wrong.

 

Of course, removing the side plates from a Henry is more of a pain than removing them from a '73 or '66.

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12 hours ago, Bull Skinner said:

he point is, the work, grief and expense of getting a 45 Colt chambered rifle to shoot BP efficiently will pay for the cost to trade the rifle for one in 44-40. Don’t ask how I know this. Been there and done that. Consequently I own 3 rifles chambered in 44-40. Two of them were obtained by trading my 45 Colt rifles for them. Best money I ever spent. 

 

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

 

I have never owned a rifle chambered for 45 Colt. Except one that I won in a raffle and promptly sold to help pay for my 44-40 Henry.

 

My experience with 44-40 goes back to my first rifle I used in CAS almost 20 years ago, an original Winchester Model 1892 chambered for 44WCF (44-40). Yes, the marking is a little bit faded because the rifle was refinished at some point. Which made it more affordable than an unrefinished original '92.

 

44WCF_zpsgebs60vx.jpg

 

 

 

 

There were no rifles chambered for 45 Colt during the 19th Century, that is a modern variation, but that's a whole 'nother story.

 

So early on I learned to load 44-40, and I always say it is a bit 'fussier' to load than 45 Colt. Not difficult once you have your dies set up correctly, but I always say the thicker brass of 45 Colt will take more abuse than the thinner brass of 44-40. I have to pay more attention loading 44-40 than 45 Colt. A little bit of inattention and I will probably ruin a round. In my experience 45 Colt is more forgiving.

 

So yes, 44-40 (and 38-40) are perfect for shooting Black Powder in a rifle because the thin brass swells better at the relatively low pressures we are shooting at than the thicker brass of 45 Colt. (No, it has nothing to do with the bottleneck shape, high pressure gas has no problem going around corners.)

 

Oh yeah, and because of the tapered shape there are no carbide dies available for 44-40, so you have to use a bit of case lube on the cases, which you don't have to do with the carbide dies that are available for 45 Colt.

 

Will I ever own a rifle chambered for 45 Colt? Probably not because I like 44-40 so much.

 

But you have to pay your money and take your choice.

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On 7/13/2019 at 7:08 PM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

First of all, don't call it 'the holy black'. I've been shooting Black Powder for over 40 years, and I can't tell you how silly that sounds. Black Powder is just another propellant, there is nothing holy or sacred about it.

 

Says who? I for one do not find anything at all holy in a cross, star of David, ankh, Om, wheel of Dharma, star and crescent, pentagram, yin yang, or any other religious symbolism, but I am not about to tell someone that does that they are wrong and to stop calling them holy. If someone wants to call it holy, who are you to tell them otherwise. I know that there have been plenty of times while shooting it, or loading it, or cleaning up after it, I have certainly cursed it and used enough holy words in vain to start think maybe there is something to it.

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I fill my 45 Long Colt Pew-Pews with the Holy Black, topped by a 250 grain Boolit.  I run them through my Winnie.  Also my SSA.  :)

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5 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

I fill my 45 Long Colt Pew-Pews with the Holy Black, topped by a 250 grain Boolit.  I run them through my Winnie.  Also my SSA.  :)

Is that because you are trying to be "period correct"?

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6 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Is that because you are trying to be "period correct"?

Nah, just trying to be funny.  Silly expressions and clichés and misnomers and stuff like that.  I couldn't think of any more.

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Just now, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

Nah, just trying to be funny.  Silly expressions and clichés and misnomers and stuff like that.  I couldn't think of any more.

Yeah me too.

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Fire forming 44-40 into 45 Colt is perfectly fine. That's the whole point of fire forming. Lots of chamberings are not available today. The time accepted way of making brass to fit those guns is to use brass from the same family that is available and fire form it. Just be aware that your initial go at fire forming 45 from 44wcf will result is some loss due to split cases.

 

As has  been said, annealing your 45 Colt is another way to soften the brass to gain a better seal. If you own a solder pot for casting, annealing is real easy.

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1 hour ago, Bramble Mountain Buzzard said:

Fire forming 44-40 into 45 Colt is perfectly fine. That's the whole point of fire forming. Lots of chamberings are not available today. The time accepted way of making brass to fit those guns is to use brass from the same family that is available and fire form it. Just be aware that your initial go at fire forming 45 from 44wcf will result is some loss due to split cases.

 

As has  been said, annealing your 45 Colt is another way to soften the brass to gain a better seal. If you own a solder pot for casting, annealing is real easy.

Unless you are someone like me that shoots 44-40 rifle and 45 colt pistol. Fireforming 44-40 into 45 colt is just asking for the wrong ammo in the wrong gun. Not terrible in the pistol, but really not fun in the rifle.

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The question was how to minimize blowback. Which I gave 2 options. You are answering a question that wasn't asked.

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Just now, Bramble Mountain Buzzard said:

The question was how to minimize blowback. Which I gave 2 options. You are answering a question that wasn't asked.

Are you new here on the wire? Staying on point is not only not a requirement, but highly discouraged. How else would we get these threads up to double digit pages?

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