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Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329

WTC -- Strange situation today at Firelands

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Good Evening:

Strange situation.

Shooter comes from the loading table to the stage.

Hammer on the rifle is cocked.

Assessed a SDQ and sent to the unloading table.

Odd thing was that all his guns were empty -- he had forgotten to load them.

I told him to go back to the loading table and load his guns.

Question -- Is there any kind of penalty here?

Or is it just a "senior moment"?

I have a problem assessing a SDQ since there was no ammo in his guns.

Somehow, he slipped by the loading table officer, who should have noticed that his revolvers were empty.

But, that's a different discussion.

Mostly, a couple of us discussed the topic of a SDQ.

What say you?

Thanks

--Dawg

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Posted (edited)
  Quote
- Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked. 

SHB p.22 - Penalties Overview - Stage Disqualification Penalty (SDQ)  



This applies to ALL LONG GUNS (loaded or not) on the firing line, including moving from the loading table (LT).

 

  Quote
Firing line - from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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Wow, was this a "new shooter?? I know we had a couple today!

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PWB: Yep I saw that on page 22, but I didn't know if it applied when the gun was empty.  Thanks for clearing it up.

--Dawg

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Further clarification on this since I was right there close and observed the shooter lay the rifle down. The shooter brought the rifle to the line with the action still open, NOT CLOSED, and layed it down in like manner. Would this change anything on the SDQ ruling??

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I would say no he left loading table with hammer cocked to shoot the stage .

Hard lession to learn 

Question .?  Were,there  other shooters at the loading table. We should try to watch what others are doing to help them not earn a penalty.

 

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At the point he set the rifle down there was no penalty. If you saw this why didn't you speak up at the time?

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9 minutes ago, Badfinger & Sassy said:

Further clarification on this since I was right there close and observed the shooter lay the rifle down. The shooter brought the rifle to the line with the action still open, NOT CLOSED, and layed it down in like manner. Would this change anything on the SDQ ruling??

 

Yes...that would be a "NO CALL" with an empty rifle, action open...same as moving from the stage to the ULT.

 

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7 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

At the point he set the rifle down there was no penalty. If you saw this why didn't you speak up at the time?

When we observed the shooter he was already at the firing line laying the rifle down, so no matter what we said prior to him laying the rifle down would have changed the outcome of the call either way. I, like others, were concerned how anyone at the loading table allowed him to leave in such a manner and yes, he is a fairly new shooter. This was a good lesson today in that we ALL need to be more observant and safety minded of everyone and everything around us. Fun is fun but safety is of the upmost at all times.

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I was the TO. I called the shooter to the line but I am guilty of turning around and talking to Badfinger Bodine. The shotgun was staged at a different position. Shooter had not returned to the rifle when I turned around and Bodine and I then noticed it. The lever was open as Bodine stated. I told the shooter that I had to give him a SDQ. No one was aware at that time that the guns we're not loaded. He proceeded to the unloading table. After the next shooter I was informed that he never loaded the guns. We had a laugh and at that time I could see no actual safety violation so I told him to reshoot. His only penalty was the ribbing he received on the next stages. Thank you Palewolf for clarifying this. Every shoot is a learning opportunity for all of us.

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3 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

I was the TO. I called the shooter to the line but I am guilty of turning around and talking to Badfinger Bodine. The shotgun was staged at a different position. Shooter had not returned to the rifle when I turned around and Bodine and I then noticed it. The lever was open as Bodine stated. I told the shooter that I had to give him a SDQ. No one was aware at that time that the guns we're not loaded. He proceeded to the unloading table. After the next shooter I was informed that he never loaded the guns. We had a laugh and at that time I could see no actual safety violation so I told him to reshoot. His only penalty was the ribbing he received on the next stages. Thank you Palewolf for clarifying this. Every shoot is a learning opportunity for all of us.

His lever was open!! Didn't that make you go hmmmm????

 

Sorry, real bad call.

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He'll never do it again.LOL

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we had one of our club's top guns do this with one pistol (the unloaded part not the cocked hammer part)

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I don't see mention of a loading table officer.   We always have one unless it's a very small posse and even then we try to have next guy up in line to check the one loading.   Looks like someone in line at loading table would have noticed he wasn't loading.

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28 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

I don't see mention of a loading table officer.   We always have one unless it's a very small posse and even then we try to have next guy up in line to check the one loading.   Looks like someone in line at loading table would have noticed he wasn't loading.

I was on another posse but I'm sure they either had a loading officer or they were checking each other as we often do. That's what we did on our posse.

I agree, someone didn't check him!!:o

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46 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I was on another posse but I'm sure they either had a loading officer or they were checking each other as we often do. That's what we did on our posse.

I agree, someone didn't check him!!:o

Yes, we were checking each other at loading table and we always have an unloading table officer. Not to throw anyone under the bus but the shooter said he was talking to the Posse Marshal at the loading table when he forgot to load them. The PM was not shooting that day.

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Posted (edited)

When I read about incidents like this I think that some shooters should spend some practice time with an instructor on a shooting range to learn proper gun handling before they join (competitive) shooting events with different guns and movement. Standing on the firing line with no ammo at all in his guns and an open action on his rifle is imho a step worse than e.g. forgetting some shotshells. Well, one might say that not having ammo in assumed loaded guns is better than vice versa, but it's still a complete brain fade....

 

CAS is an absolutely great fun game, we're just not using toys, therefore my (maybe unpopular) opinion,

Equanimous

 

On 5/19/2019 at 2:57 AM, Badfinger & Sassy said:

Fun is fun but safety is of the upmost at all times.

 

Edited by Equanimous Phil

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I've witnessed several incidents where experienced shooters have made errors in being ready to shoot the stage.  Most often it's not having shotgun shells or enough of them. My slide holds 8 and I have occasionally shot a stage with only 4 because I forgot to stock up.  Now the first thing I do when I get back to the cart is stock up my slide.  One time I only loaded 9 rounds in my rifle in a 10 round scenario and lost a shot. One cartridge rolled off the table and I didn't see it and I didn't count as I loaded. 

 

A good TO catches a lot of problems before the beeper goes off. 

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On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 10:24 PM, Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226 said:

A rifle with the lever open is not cocked.

Yes it is. I argued this very point where a rifle is set on the table with lever open and a round in the carrier falls into the chamber. By rule that is a violation of the round in chamber under a cocked hammer left the shooters hands.

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It is not a violation of a round in the chamber under a "cocked hammer".  Please show where it states this in the "book's".  The violation is the round in the chamber, no matter how much is in the chamber.  It's either in the chamber or not, any portion of the round, is in the chamber.  Simple, lever open or closed, a live round cannot be in the chamber, no matter how little.  Lever open has nothing to do with it.  

 

K

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30 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Yes it is. I argued this very point where a rifle is set on the table with lever open and a round in the carrier falls into the chamber. By rule that is a violation of the round in chamber under a cocked hammer left the shooters hands.

I think you need to review the rules a bit.  I can run around all day long with my rifle if the action is open...

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And your wasting time running around all day with your rifle.  :P

 

K

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1 minute ago, Kingsley said:

And your wasting time running around all day with your rifle.  :P

 

K

But I might do it just to prove a point:o

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haha, and we'll let you do that.  Don't let that lever fall to the half way point though, might get some people calling you on it.  Have a nice day Phantom.

 

K

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REF: SHB p.43 - "SECTION 9 - GLOSSARY OF TERMS" (lines 2-5).

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17 hours ago, Kingsley said:

It is not a violation of a round in the chamber under a "cocked hammer".  Please show where it states this in the "book's".  The violation is the round in the chamber, no matter how much is in the chamber.  It's either in the chamber or not, any portion of the round, is in the chamber.  Simple, lever open or closed, a live round cannot be in the chamber, no matter how little.  Lever open has nothing to do with it.  

 

K

I guess this is what confuses me, because that is the exact wording used in this rule (P 17-18). I understand that it is the live round in the chamber regardless of lever position that rules a SDQ. If it said "live round in the chamber" it would make more sense.

 

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange.  This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired.  If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO.  Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed.  However, if the action is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”.  In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.

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This is the important part of the rule, that you quoted.  Sentence above what you have highlighted.  "However, if the action is opened, etc..", this is why you haver a cocked hammer.  A rifle with the lever open, cannot be considered a cocked gun.  If it was, we would never be able to ground it at the conclusion of the shooting string.  

 

K

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1 hour ago, Kingsley said:

This is the important part of the rule, that you quoted.  Sentence above what you have highlighted.  "However, if the action is opened, etc..", this is why you haver a cocked hammer.  A rifle with the lever open, cannot be considered a cocked gun.  If it was, we would never be able to ground it at the conclusion of the shooting string.  

 

K

But you can ground it with the action closed hammer cocked, without penalty, if it is empty. Isn't that what this paragraph is all about?

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It doesn't say in the OP, but apparently the rifle action was open (AND it was empty).

Penalty should be that the shooter has to load all guns ON the clock... that'll learn em!

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5 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

It doesn't say in the OP, but apparently the rifle action was open (AND it was empty).

Penalty should be that the shooter has to load all guns ON the clock... that'll learn em!

Nope, stage can be restarted if a round hasn't left the barrel.

 

The embarrassment should be enough to teach the lesson.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2019 at 7:15 PM, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Hammer on the rifle is cocked.

This is what the OP said, I talked to the TO and the action was open (I was there but on another posse)

Edited by Rye Miles #13621

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On 5/18/2019 at 8:58 PM, Sixgun Seamus said:

I was the TO. I called the shooter to the line but I am guilty of turning around and talking to Badfinger Bodine. The shotgun was staged at a different position. Shooter had not returned to the rifle when I turned around and Bodine and I then noticed it. The lever was open as Bodine stated. I told the shooter that I had to give him a SDQ. No one was aware at that time that the guns we're not loaded. He proceeded to the unloading table. After the next shooter I was informed that he never loaded the guns. We had a laugh and at that time I could see no actual safety violation so I told him to reshoot. His only penalty was the ribbing he received on the next stages. Thank you Palewolf for clarifying this. Every shoot is a learning opportunity for all of us.

 

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16 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Nope, stage can be restarted if a round hasn't left the barrel.

 

The embarrassment should be enough to teach the lesson.

Humor... yes, of course have a laugh, lightly ridicule, cajole... and start em over.

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