Newbie ammunition and reloading question...

[Croc Holiday]

Couple ammunition questions...

 

I have a pair of NMV and a 73 in .357 coming.  I know you can usually use .38 sp in .357 guns.  I was told today by a vastly more experienced shootist than I that while this is true, it’s not the best idea and can damage the gun, especially if I put a lot of rounds through it.  Unsettling since putting a lot of rounds through it is exactly what I plan to do.  So how true is this?  Should I be sticking to .357?

 

Second question...

I know this same feller does reloading.  I asked if he would be interested in reloading for me.  He is but I leaned this is not exactly a simple question.  He asked about bullet type, weight, flavor, powder type, powder amount, filler type if light load, etc.  Is there a standard / common formula most folks use?  What should I bring for reloading besides a good bourbon bribe?

 

Thanks in advance for sharing your wisdom.  I really appreciate it.

[Tyrel Cody]

The only problem you are likely to run into shooting .38s is carbon buildup. You won't notice really until you try to shoot a .357 after shooting thousands of .38s. This is easily remedied by buying a scraper to clean the chambers out OR shooting several rounds of real Black Powder.

 

Bring cash and don't drink the bourbon until you are done reloading. There's a thread on here somewhere that lists favorite 38 loads. Pick one and run with it.

[Russ The Red]

There are tons of different arrangements for reloading .38's. Mine is to use hard-cast lead bullets from CheyCast out of Otto, WY. Just outside of Cheyenne. They make a very nice coated bullet which keeps down the lead contact. The weight is something you are going to have to be comfortable with. I use 125 grains now but used to shoot 158 from HSM and Remington. Lots of Guys I talk with use 105 grains. The configuration of the bullet is very important for the rifle. Most use a lead-round nose, flat point (LRNFP). You can check Hodgen Gun Powder online to see what range they recommend and ask your fellow shootists. I shoot with 4 grains of Trail Boss powder. I use Starline unprimed brass - I think most Guys do as well. It is high quality stuff. There isn't that much concern for the pistol in terms of bullet shape and overall length (OAL), but your rifle supplier and gunsmith may have some fairly specific bullet shapes and OAL requirements. There is supposed to be a roll crimp for the brass into the bullet. Without that you can run into loading problems and pressure loss with just a straight casing. 

 

I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I have talked with several shooters and find my 125 grain LRNFP, with small pistol primer, Starline brass, and 4 grains of Trail Boss powder shots just fine. Some will tell you to only use Federal Primers. I am using CCI and haven't found any trouble thus far. Good Luck.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

.38's in a .357 chamber will NOT 'damage' the gun.

Just gotta use a brass brush from time to time to clean the chambers.

Just who are these 'X-perts' tell'n ya this crap?

OLG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I will never use someones elses reloads.....

Learn to do it yourownself.

Bullet type is lead only-No filler is needed with smokeless powder.

You need to bring a note book, if you want to learn how to reload.

OLG

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

.38's in a .357 chamber will NOT 'damage' the gun.

Just gotta use a brass brush from time to time to clean the chambers.

Just who are these 'X-perts' tell'n ya this crap?

OLG

 

OLG is correct!  That X-pert must been one of those that had a cousin that lived next door to a guy whose ex-wife saw a picture of someone who knew it would damage a .357 if you shot a lot of .38 ammo in it.

 

Load em and shoot em!

Blackfoot

[Griff]

Actually, the operative word in all this is "can".  or maybe better yet is "may".  Shooting .38 Spl's in a .357 Mag "may" damage the gun... IF you contribute a number of irregular conditions.  Like shooting very fast, corrosive powders in loads that try to replicate .357 ballistics.  And... IF you fail to clean the gun with any sort of regularity.  The worst that's likely to happen is what Tyrel Cody said, carbon build up.  And that's easily avoidable if you simply clean the gun after each day's use.  

 

Then...

4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I will never use someones elses reloads.....

Learn to do it yourownself.

Bullet type is lead only-No filler is needed with smokeless powder.

You need to bring a note book, if you want to learn how to reload.

OLG

is the best advice you will ever receive. 

Just follow my two reloading rules:

 

[Captain Clark]

5 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I will never use someones elses reloads.....

Learn to do it yourownself.

Bullet type is lead only-No filler is needed with smokeless powder.

You need to bring a note book, if you want to learn how to reload.

OLG

^^This plus......Find yourself a reloading manual that describes the reloading process and procedures and you won't have to rely on someone else going forward. 

I suggest the Lyman cast bullet book. It's informative and well regarded!  There are other available and a backup never hurts.

Welcome aboard 

[Deadshot Dan]

5 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

.38's in a .357 chamber will NOT 'damage' the gun.

Just gotta use a brass brush from time to time to clean the chambers.

Just who are these 'X-perts' tell'n ya this crap?

OLG

Most of my guns have never seen a .357.  Who evers feeding ya that line is probably going off personal bias, or doesn't like to do any periodic cleaning maintenance.  And like OLG said, i wouldn't trust someone else's reloads.  Back before i started reloading i had a small lgs load some ammo for me and it didn't last long as i found 1-2 squibs per batch, and my friends were having the same results. 

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

Conversely my .357s have never seen a .38 due to much previous talk on the Wire about Marlins being sensitive sometimes to feeding them. I no longer shoot a Marlin as my daily driver but I’m all set up for .357 and there is no reason to change. The only downside to .357 over .38s is that apparently some folks can shoot .38s faster than me and they spend a tiny bit less money reloading them. Neither of these affects my performance or enjoyment of the game. (Too be fair some folks can shoot full house .45 Colt BP loads faster than me so it ain’t the caliber). As for the carbon ring for that reason alone I would avoid .38s in a gun chambered for .357 because I dislike  cleaning guns.

 

Free advice, worth what you paid for it.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I will give you what is commonly used locally.  (I don't use it because I shoot the smoky stuff.)

 

• 125 grain truncated cone bullet, many use coated bullets (this weight bullet may not shoot to point-of-aim with your revolvers)
• A minimum charge of Hodgdon Clays (see the Hodgdon Reloading Center for their recommendations)
• A Federal small pistol primer - some prefer magnum primers
• Brass 38 Special cases (no nickel-plated)
• NO FILLERS!

There are many pistol and revolvers powders suitable for CAS.  Search the Wire and you will find a list.  Firearms that are not tuned for minimum weight springs will reliably ignite most any primer.  I load my 38 Specials crimped in the lube groove instead of the crimp groove on bullets so they feed more smoothly in my rifles.  I prefer softer bullets (like Brinell hardness 12) over hard cast bullets since I get less backsplatter using softer bullets.  You can buy sample packs of 100 bullets from some casters for trials.  Best to buy small lots until you find what you like.  I do not purchase unfired cases 38 Special cases from Starline as once-fired cases are readily available at much lower cost.  However, I do buy Starline cases for less common calibers like 45-70 and like their product.

 

A box of 1,000 Federal primers would be a welcome gift to a reloader.

 

Load small batches and test them before loading thousands of rounds.  Remember the words of a ballistician who once was on this Wire.  He cautioned that a handloader can easily turn a firearm into a shoulder-mounted pipe bomb.  Visit most any gun store and you can see proof of that on display.

 

 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

This ".38s will damage a .357" is something that I have been seeing more frequently the last couple of years.  It is highly overstated.  I've been shooting .357 revolvers, mostly using .38 Special ammunition, since about 1980 and most of that ammo being my handloads with cast lead bullets.  Can a little fouling build up in the chamber?  Sure but nothing a reasonable cleaning regimen cannot handle.

 

I also agree with OLG and others who advised against shooting someone else's handloads.  

 

 

[Doc Shapiro]

A lot of self-described experts really aren't.

 

I've logged well over 150,000 38 rounds through each of my revolvers and my rifle.  They run just fine.

 

My preferred load is a 130gr TC from Badman Bullets, and 3.1 gr of Bullseye.  I came to this load with a lot of experimentation on paper and with a shot timer to find out what worked best for me. 

[Croc Holiday]

Thanks for the input!  I really appreciate it.  To my x-perts defense, in my newbieness I may have misunderstood what he was saying. He mentioned the carbon build up but not that it can be removed

with some scrubbing.  In my mind, build up minus removal solution equals damage haha.

 

So beyond cost, is there a benefit to using .38 over .357?  What kind of cost difference are we talking?

 

I do plan on doing my own reloading for sure.  Just shelled out for guns so it’ll have to wait a bit.  I was really hoping to reload my own using my friends gear till I can get my own set up.

[Yusta B.]

6 minutes ago, Half Deaf Hoss Deveraux said:

 

I do plan on doing my own reloading for sure.  Just shelled out for guns so it’ll have to wait a bit.  I was really hoping to reload my own using my friends gear till I can get my own set up. 

 

 

This can be a great step in learning reloading. Having a mentor can save you a bunch of headaches. For some, it's faster/easier to learn when watching a process being done.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

12 minutes ago, Half Deaf Hoss Deveraux said:

Thanks for the input!  I really appreciate it.  To my x-perts defense, in my newbieness I may have misunderstood what he was saying. He mentioned the carbon build up but not that it can be removed

with some scrubbing.  In my mind, build up minus removal solution equals damage haha.

 

So beyond cost, is there a benefit to using .38 over .357?  What kind of cost difference are we talking?

 

I do plan on doing my own reloading for sure.  Just shelled out for guns so it’ll have to wait a bit.  I was really hoping to reload my own using my friends gear till I can get my own set up.

If buying new, Starline brass you will only save $5/1000 on your initial purchase.  This is for cases you can get many reloads from, though some brass will be lost at the range before splitting.  The cost savings would come by buying readily available, once-fired 38 Special brass.  However, some do not like once-fired brass.  BTW, I run 357 rounds through my '73 for smoothest cycling.

 

Look for a used reloading equipment.  That can get you started until you can afford a progressive reloading press.  Single stage presses are very durable and are sometimes sold at estate sales.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP-First you have to confirm your rifle will feed/cycle .38's.

If it does-GREAT

If not--You should load just .357 for the KISS reason.

KISS=Keep It Simple, Stupid.

OLG

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

There are many benefits to many shooters in shooting .38s over .357s however there are no benefits to me. I can afford the few extra nickels, the .357s cycle flawlessly in everything and there is no carbon buildup to attend to. There is no downside to .357s for me although a thousand other shooters may tell you otherwise.

[Doc Shapiro]

There is a benefit as we use fairly light powder charges.

 

Small amount of powder in big case = inconsistent ignition between shots.

Inconsistent ignition between shots = inconsistent velocity between shots

Inconsistent velocity between shots = inconsistent on paper

Inconsistent on paper = poor precision

Poor precision = more misses

 

Precision = how closely each hole on paper is assuming same point of aim

[Cholla]

My wife uses .38 in her pistols and rifle. If I were to start over again, I would go with .357 brass. Some rifles have a certain minimum overall length to feed properly. When using .38 brass I have to use truncated bullets and not seat them fully to get to that overall length. If I used .357 brass, those issues go away. The problem is that .38 brass is easier to find and cheaper to buy than .357 brass. As time goes along I will transition to .357 brass.

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

Understood and agreed Doc but I’m not shooting at paper, I’m shooting at steel and it doesn’t matter where on the target the bullet goes bang as long as it goes bang. Regardless of powder charge I’ve detected no difference in accuracy and experienced the benefit in speed one would expect the lighter my load gets. While your logic is flawless it only really plays out at the extremes of what we do and most of us don’t play the game at the level that you do.

 

Respectfully...

[Griff]

But Grasshopper, if you have bullet that takes 4 times the amount of space to ensure itself of a clang, you have to be 4 times more careful where you're aiming.

 

I can run a lot FASTER knowing my ave. 1" group load has 16" to hit the target compared to a load that can only group in 4" @ the same distance.

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

Theoretically, if you take the time to aim.

[Griff]

8 minutes ago, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

Theoretically, if you take the time to aim.

Whether I'm instinct pointing or aiming over sights, knowing I have 20-25% larger target with an accurate load than any less accurate load means I can run faster.

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

Understood and agreed, my point is how much difference does that make to an average shooter or a new shooter, such as the OP, who is simply trying to figure out which cases to buy for his brand new pistols. In a way you made my point, that there may be benefit to the accomplished shooter with the smaller cases although the extent of those benefits are difficult to quantify and are somewhat theoretical. On my best day I’m a twenty second shooter and I don’t think my limitation is the size of my case.

 

Respectfully...

[Griff]

Ah... but if you develop good habits and practices from the start, you don't have to unlearn them later.  And, maybe, the OP has the natural talent, desire & drive to become the next World's Champion.  I can feel good about givin' out good advice, and maybe taking some small credit for his success.  

 

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

By the "Lyman # 50 " loading Manuel and do some reading While you wait for your guns ...

Then go to a Shoot and meet some of the Finest Folk you could ever hope to meet ,,,,, and pick their brains (get their Help ) ....

The fellow that told you .38s would wreck yer .357s ,,,,, Is NOT one I would get to do any reloading for You ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Doc Shapiro]

1 hour ago, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

Understood and agreed Doc but I’m not shooting at paper, I’m shooting at steel and it doesn’t matter where on the target the bullet goes bang as long as it goes bang. Regardless of powder charge I’ve detected no difference in accuracy and experienced the benefit in speed one would expect the lighter my load gets. While your logic is flawless it only really plays out at the extremes of what we do and most of us don’t play the game at the level that you do.

 

Respectfully...

 

Respectfully, I would disagree with you.  Here's why:

 

Imagine, for the sake of discussion, that your gun/ammo shoots 4inch groups at 5 yards.  That means that if you're aimed within 1 inch of the target edge when the bullet leaves the barrel, there's a reasonable percentage that you'll miss the target.  If you're aimed at the edge of the target when the bullet leaves the barrel, there's at least a 50% chance of a miss (depending on target shape).   Essentially, you've shrunk the effective space of target.

 

Essentially, you're relying on chance to hit that target if you're less than 2 inches from the target when the bullet leaves the barrel.

 

Tight groups are more important than most folks realize.

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

And I completely agree, I just haven't seen it illustrated that there can be that much variation between a .357 case and a .38 case with identical loads. If those loads are approaching the ragged edge of the bottom end then I can see the variation increasing but unless someone is hunting for that threshold I don't see the length of the case making that much difference in our game. Not trying to be obstinate, not trying to pick a fight, I have retained a respectful demeanor towards those who disagree with me, I'm merely saying that I don't see it being relevant on any level other than the extreme.

[Croc Holiday]

2 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

There is a benefit as we use fairly light powder charges.

 

Small amount of powder in big case = inconsistent ignition between shots.

Inconsistent ignition between shots = inconsistent velocity between shots

Inconsistent velocity between shots = inconsistent on paper

Inconsistent on paper = poor precision

Poor precision = more misses

 

Precision = how closely each hole on paper is assuming same point of aim

 

Maybe this is where my x-pert was taking about some kind of filler with a light load to keep powder / rounds consistent?

 

57 minutes ago, Griff said:

Ah... but if you develop good habits and practices from the start, you don't have to unlearn them later.  And, maybe, the OP has the natural talent, desire & drive to become the next World's Champion.  I can feel good about givin' out good advice, and maybe taking some small credit for his success.  

 

 

Griff is on to me.  Ya’ll are already beat and just don’t know it yet  .

 

(disclaimer...  I’m prone to BS, trash talk and other shenanigans.  Being new I can not likely back this statement up in any way...  yet... )

[Croc Holiday]

59 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

By the "Lyman # 50 " loading Manuel and do some reading While you wait for your guns ...

Then go to a Shoot and meet some of the Finest Folk you could ever hope to meet ,,,,, and pick their brains (get their Help ) ....

The fellow that told you .38s would wreck yer .357s ,,,,, Is NOT one I would get to do any reloading for You ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

I have been to a couple already and totally agree with “Finest Folk”.  Everyone in person and on the web have been absolutely awesome and helpful (thank you!).  It’s a big part of my interest.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP-NO current reloading manual suggests using fillers today.

To many 'ringed' chambers. DON'T USE A FILLER!

Maybe you should find anther mentor(ASAP)-This guy ain't help'n you one bit........

OLG

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

2 hours ago, Half Deaf Hoss Deveraux said:

 

I have been to a couple already and totally agree with “Finest Folk”.  Everyone in person and on the web have been absolutely awesome and helpful (thank you!).  It’s a big part of my interest.

Well, you havent met ALL of us yet. But for the most part we are the "Finest Folk" and we try to be of help. We're glad you are here.

 

Imis  now go get yourself a good hat

[Doc Shapiro]

51 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP-NO current reloading manual suggests using fillers today.

To many 'ringed' chambers. DON'T USE A FILLER!

Maybe you should find anther mentor(ASAP)-This guy ain't help'n you one bit........

OLG

 

Yeah, this.  Don't mess with fillers.  They have a tendency to really increase pressure.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I'd recommend finding the load and cartridge size that works best in your rifle.  Some rifles like 357 length cartridges.  When you find the sweet spot for the rifle, just shoot that round in your pistols too.  It keeps things simple.  One load for everything.  And don't worry about shooting 38's in a 357 rifle or pistol.   None of my rifles or pistols have ever seen a 357 cartridge.  Just clean them once in a while and you'll be fine.  Hopees #9, a cleaning brush and a few patches is all you'll need.