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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

all done..

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my apologies for any grief,,,

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Wrong instructions by the TO should result in a re-shoot for the competitor.

 

TB

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I think in that instance as TO I would require a reshoot. While it remains that the shooter has the responsibility to know the stage, the shooter tried to ascertain that knowledge from a person in charge. The shooter then shot the stage the way he was instructed. This I don't feel is "incorrect coaching" that falls on the shooters lap. But a puzzler for sure.

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Had this happen at WR with Badlands Bud.

 

He got a reshoot...and believe it or not, Bud argued against a reshoot saying that he was ultimately responsible.

 

Phantom

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what should the TO have done tho?  

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If I didn't know of the "special" instructions, I would have tried to correct the shooter... Can you be a bit more specific as to what the incorrect instructions were???

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Reshoot.

 

..........Widder

 

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Happened to me recently, and I got a reshoot.

 

I walked up and while staging my firearms the TO asked me; "Does the shooter understand the course of fire?" I responded with "2-1-2 right?" He responded with "YES." Well after I shot it the spotters were all holding up a P!  Well it was actually a 1-3-1. TO spoke up immediately said that he had provided the wrong direction and I had the option of a re-shoot or take my time with the P. Naturally I took the re-shoot and all was well with the world. 

 

Absolutely a re-shoot!

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On 9/6/2018 at 10:02 AM, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

what should the TO have done tho?  

 

First, prior to the the stage, the TO (PM) should have read/memorized the stage.

When asked, if in doubt, say so and ask others or reread stage quickly.

 

Once the mistake was made apologize and advised that a reshoot would be required.

 

Edit, I see that it was not the TO, but the PM who made the mistake.  So do as Shooting Bull mentions below.

 

Hang down your head, Tom Dooley..

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1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

what should the TO have done tho?  

Mm Hu....in the OP it was the Posse Marshall that gave out the wrong info, not the TO......What should the TO have done??:huh: That's a good one, did the PM tell him at the on deck position?? at the loading table?? when they first arrived at the stage?? or while having a chat about where to eat lunch??:wacko: Makes ya think don't it;)

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Cheyenne thanks for posting this.  

 

It wasn’t clear to me at the time.  But in the situation we had this weekend the pm told the shooter upon arrival to the stage.  Not at the line or during the stage instructions.  In this case I would not have recommended a reshoot.  As this was a discussion prior to the reading of the stage instructions.  

 

I do agree with those who have posted that if given the instruction during the explanation or at the line then a reshoot option should be offered.  

 

Good topic.  

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2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

what should the TO have done tho?  

 

Confirm with the Posse Marshal that incorrect instructions were given.  If so, offer the shooter a re-shooter.

 

I might ask a different question though.  How would the TO know more about how the stage is supposed to be shot than the Posse Marshall? :wacko:

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I saw what i perceived to be a flaw in the instructions concerning the target sequence as given by the TO. I told him what I saw and asked permission to shoot it as I saw it, not as the other shooters were shooting.  TO gave me permission.  I finished the stage to a wild out cry from some of the other shooters.  They thought I deserved a "P".

I was finally required to reshoot as everyone else was shooting it because my way was not the "intended method" or accept the "P"

I reshot and as I was a bit upset I shot that stage better than any others at the shoot.

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should the shooter have been told to reshoot, or take the P?

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10 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

should the shooter have been told to reshoot, or take the P?

Yes

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Sounds like some poorly written stage instructions. Intent should not play into the reading of the well written stage instructions.

 

TB

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11 minutes ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

Sounds like some poorly written stage instructions. Intent should not play into the reading of the well written stage instructions.

 

TB

actually, they were crystal clear, the PM made the mistake

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OK,

 

Then I go back to my previous statement, shooter should be given a re-shoot. PMs' are not infallible, they do make mistakes, shooter should not be penalized for an error on the part of the of the PM.

 

TB 

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2 hours ago, Sinola Kid said:

Cheyenne thanks for posting this.  

 

It wasn’t clear to me at the time.  But in the situation we had this weekend the pm told the shooter upon arrival to the stage.  Not at the line or during the stage instructions.  In this case I would not have recommended a reshoot.  As this was a discussion prior to the reading of the stage instructions.  

 

I do agree with those who have posted that if given the instruction during the explanation or at the line then a reshoot option should be offered.  

 

Good topic.  

 

If this is what happened in the case of the original post, then shooter should get the P . The shooter may have gotten the wrong info from the PM but had the opportunity to get the correct info at the time the stage instructions were read to everyone. If there were any questions they could have been answered at that time.

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26 minutes ago, Double Barrel, SASS 34765 said:

 

If this is what happened in the case of the original post, then shooter should get the P . The shooter may have gotten the wrong info from the PM but had the opportunity to get the correct info at the time the stage instructions were read to everyone. If there were any questions they could have been answered at that time.

Shooter could have been the last shooter on the previous stage and if the stage instructions were read before he/she arrived, what are they to do, especially if there is not a stage book given out? 

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1 hour ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

Shooter could have been the last shooter on the previous stage and if the stage instructions were read before he/she arrived, what are they to do, especially if there is not a stage book given out? 

there was book,,   

 

as far as I know, no reshoot was required and no P was given,,,  I was bystander and offered my 2 cents of,,,  P or must reshoot,,,  I lost track because I was getting ready to go to the loading table

I was not the PM,,

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1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

there was book,,   

 

as far as I know, no reshoot was required and no P was given,,,  I was bystander and offered my 2 cents of,,,  P or must reshoot,,,  I lost track because I was getting ready to go to the loading table

I was not the PM,,

So a shooter got to shoot a stage in a way that no one else was allowed to shoot it?

 

Yeah...that's a good call...

 

:wacko:

 

Phantom

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11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So a shooter got to shoot a stage in a way that no one else was allowed to shoot it?

 

Yeah...that's a good call...

 

:wacko:

 

Phantom

and some don't like to shoot with me because I make calls,,,, go figure,,,

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Go to Wolverine Rangers Range War web site read stage 4. Scenario was read, any questions? Shooters walk away.  One shooter asks PM if he could take SG from Pos. 1 to Pos 2. PM said yes. Shotgun was left pointing safely into berm. MD said that it was a no call...…..I don't think it really made a difference, it just wasn't brought up during the walk through. I was on the posse, but not the PM.

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27 minutes ago, Faygo Kid, SASS # 26408 said:

Go to Wolverine Rangers Range War web site read stage 4. Scenario was read, any questions? Shooters walk away.  One shooter asks PM if he could take SG from Pos. 1 to Pos 2. PM said yes. Shotgun was left pointing safely into berm. MD said that it was a no call...…..I don't think it really made a difference, it just wasn't brought up during the walk through. I was on the posse, but not the PM.

The shooter should have got a P since the instructions say to make SG safe before moving to position 2. 

 

It's irrelevant whether someone thought or thinks it doesn't make a difference.

 

Phantom

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38 minutes ago, Faygo Kid, SASS # 26408 said:

Go to Wolverine Rangers Range War web site read stage 4. Scenario was read, any questions? Shooters walk away.  One shooter asks PM if he could take SG from Pos. 1 to Pos 2. PM said yes. Shotgun was left pointing safely into berm. MD said that it was a no call...…..I don't think it really made a difference, it just wasn't brought up during the walk through. I was on the posse, but not the PM.

 

It DID make a difference. In that scenario it’s faster to take shotgun to the next position than it is to safe it then move. Smart move by the shooter but contrary to the stage instructions. P or reshoot. 

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I'm a big fan of reading the stage instructions myself. Then ask any questions to clarify, before heading to the loading table. 

 

I have seen and heard way too many PM's read the instructions using their words, not what is written.

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glad it went to the MD,,, was wondering

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

It DID make a difference. In that scenario it’s faster to take shotgun to the next position than it is to safe it then move. Smart move by the shooter but contrary to the stage instructions. P or reshoot. 

You're spot on!

 

To allow a shooter to run a stage contrary to the written description is mind boggling to me.

 

Here's the Stage:

Staging: Rifle loaded with 10 rounds, staged at POS 2. Shotgun open and empty, in hands at POS 1. Revolvers loaded with 5 rounds each, holstered.

 

gun Sequence: Shotgun ♠ Rifle ♠ Revolver

 

Scenario: Shooter starts at POS 1, with shotgun in hands, at the ready. ATB knockdown the 4 shotgun targets, any order, make shotgun safe pointing safely into the berm. Move to POS 2 and engage the 5 rifle targets in a two separate diagonal Nevada sweeps, in an X pattern, starting on any corner target (i.e., 1,2,3,2,1,4,2,5,2,4), make rifle safe pointing safely into the berm. Move to POS 3 and engage the 5 revolver targets in a two separate diagonal Nevada sweeps, in an X pattern, starting on any corner target.

 

Phantom

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9 hours ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

 

I have seen and heard way too many PM's read the instructions using their words, not what is written.

 

Very true.

 

And sometimes, the written instructions are revised WITHOUT the knowledge of the shooters until

they arrive on the stage and then they are informed of the changes.

 

Sometimes, these changes are understandable, due to weather, prop failures, etc.....

But sometimes, it makes you think something has been changed to 'help' someone (category)  and/or become a

hinderance to someone (category).

 

just my .02

 

..........Widder

 

 

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I wish we had be informed on the posse of the allowance, then I wouldn't have made a fool of myself here,,,

 

notice I never mentioned particulars,,,

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Just a comment, lest it be overlooked in all of the conversation.

 

I can't think of a situation where a P would just be dropped unless it was incorrect according to the stage instructions.. It is either a reshoot or a P. If a P is dropped and the shooter gained an advantage, it isn't fair to the other shooters unless they are all given the chance to reshoot and that could be a nightmare.

 

As the shooter was misinformed, a reshoot offer was in order.

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