plant and/then poke "WtC?"

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

What is the penalty for loading a shotgun "on the move" in violation of a so-called "plant & poke" or "plant then poke" club/range rule?

I found a few references to that rule on club home pages (appreciate publication of advanced notice, BTW), but not all are clear as to the PENALTY.

 

 

[Flash]

I seem to remember the penalty is a SDQ.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

PWB-When you say 'load', do you mean to have the SG in firing condition(closed/'locked')?

OLG

 

[Null N. Void]

I remember being at matches where they say you must plant then load.  However, I don't remember exactly what the penalties were.  It probably varies according to local club rules.  I just remember don't do it.

[Sedalia Dave]

At the clubs I shoot at in the North TX area it is a MSV  SDQ.  It is also well briefed at the safety meeting before the match.

 

Rule was enacted before I started CAS but as I understand it it was the result of a shooter that fell with a shotgun that had a shell(s) in the chamber but the action was open. While moving with the shotgun in this condition from one part of the stage to another the shooter tripped and fell. As he was trying to catch himself the action closed and the shotgun discharged. Fortunately no was was seriously injured. However it could have very easily resulted in the death or serious injury of one or more posse members.

 

If you think about it and what would likely happen with a SXS or pump with shells in the chamber held in both hands as you tripped and fell it is easy to see how a "safe" condition and instantly turn in to a potentially lethal one and why such a rule is a good idea.

 

The same scenario could happen moving with a lever gun with the action open and a round on the carrier.

 

To be honest I am surprised that SASS hasn't adopted the rule.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PWB-When you say 'load', do you mean to have the SG in firing condition(closed/'locked')?

OLG

 

 

No...as I understand the "rule", it forbids placing any live rounds in the action/chamber(s) while changing location; then closing the action upon arrival at the shooting location.
SHB p.43 definition is: 

Loaded Firearm – Any firearm with unfired round(s) in the action/chamber/magazine.

[evil dogooder]

The only club I've ever shot at that had it was a sdq 

[evil dogooder]

15 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

At the clubs I shoot at in the North TX area it is a SDQ.  It is also well briefed at the safety meeting before the match.

 

Rule was enacted before I started CAS but as I understand it it was the result of a shooter that fell with a shotgun that had a shell(s) in the chamber but the action was open. While moving with the shotgun in this condition from one part of the stage to another the shooter tripped and fell. As he was trying to catch himself the action closed and the shotgun discharged. Fortunately no was was seriously injured. However it could have very easily resulted in the death or serious injury of one or more posse members.

 

If you think about it and what would likely happen with a SXS or pump with shells in the chamber held in both hands as you tripped and fell it is easy to see how a "safe" condition and instantly turn in to a potentially lethal one and why such a rule is a good idea.

 

The same scenario could happen moving with a lever gun with the action open and a round on the carrier.

 

To be honest I am surprised that SASS hasn't adopted the rule.

Why So you think sass should adopt it? 

[Barry Sloe]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

To be honest I am surprised that SASS hasn't adopted the rule.

 

SASS has rules concerning what is/is not legal in regard to moving with a firearm.  We don't need to add more.

 

Currently we move with loaded revolvers and rifles.  Should those be loaded on the clock? 

Think about what you ask for before it gets delivered.

 

If a local club/range adds to the SASS rules, that is up to them.  All we can do is abide by their decision or shoot somewhere else.

 

My two cents worth,

Barry Sloe

[Juan Solo]

2 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

 

SASS has rules concerning what is/is not legal in regard to moving with a firearm.  We don't need to add more.

 

Currently we move with loaded revolvers and rifles.  Should those be loaded on the clock? 

Think about what you ask for before it gets delivered.

 

If a local club/range adds to the SASS rules, that is up to them.  All we can do is abide by their decision or shoot somewhere else.

 

My two cents worth,

Barry Sloe

 

To be fair to Dave, the revolver and the lever gun both do not have a live round in the chamber under the hammer and instead it is more akin to moving with a round on the carrier on a lever gun.

 

In all honesty I could see an argument as to why not allowing moving with a loaded but open SxS could be argued as an appropriate safety precaution.

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

at the range in question, it is private property,,, owners choice,,,, doesn't want someone else owning the range

 

sdq

[Driftwood Dan SASS #62738L]

PaleWolf  I remember a few years ago at Siuslaw River Rangers it was discussed about a rule change allowing loading a shotgun on the move if the action was not closed,  and we did that at an annual match where we shot open the door.  However I do not remember if this was Wild Bunch or a SASS stage.   Have not done it since.  Hope all is well with you miss seeing you at the matches.   Driftwood Dan

[Barry Sloe]

El Cubano - My point is be careful what you ask for. 

 

BS

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

No...as I understand the "rule", it forbids placing any live rounds in the action/chamber(s) while changing location; then closing the action upon arrival at the shooting location.
SHB p.43 definition is: 

Loaded Firearm – Any firearm with unfired round(s) in the action/chamber/magazine.

From 'The-Book'.........

"Loaded Firearm – Any firearm with unfired round(s) in the action/chamber/magazine"

If that is the rule-Then we can't move with the rifle that is staged at position 1, to position 2 and engage targets.  

What am I miss'n here(beside the targets)?

Respectfully,

OLG

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Please...for gods sake...DO NOT IMPLEMENT THE STOOPID PLANT AND POKE RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[evil dogooder]

I have to agree with phantom.  There is no need for that rule. 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

38 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

From 'The-Book'.........

"Loaded Firearm – Any firearm with unfired round(s) in the action/chamber/magazine"

If that is the rule-Then we can't move with the rifle that is staged at position 1, to position 2 and engage targets.  

What am I miss'n here(beside the targets)?

Respectfully,

OLG

Shooter handbook page 15

A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only: - Action open, round in chamber or on carrier. - Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Shooter handbook page 15

A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only: - Action open, round in chamber or on carrier. - Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

 

Thank you

That's what I remember also-I just didn't go back far enough in the hand book to locate it.

OLG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

34 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please...for gods sake...DO NOT IMPLEMENT THE STOOPID PLANT AND POKE RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

THIS 

 

OLG

[Ace_of_Hearts]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Thank you

That's what I remember also-I just didn't go back far enough in the hand book to locate it.

OLG

You are most welcome Sir!

 

[Lead Monger]

There is no penalty for moving with live round in the chamber of a shotgun with the action open.

[Bittertrigger]

As one who has fallen with my shotgun in hand and thank God it was empty because when I hit the deck it closed and went click it would have taken out the uploading officer (Yes it broke the 170)

So matter where I shoot I will always plant & poke my shotgun 

my two cents worth 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

24 minutes ago, Lead Monger said:

There is no penalty for moving with live round in the chamber of a shotgun with the action open.

 

There is no SASS rule...the "OP" asked regarding the penalty at those clubs/ranges that have the NON-SASS RULE against loading on the move.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Thank you to those who actually READ the OP and answered the question.

Penalty appears to be either a SDQ or MSV. 

(edited based on additional information)

[Oklahoma Dee]

There are two clubs that I know of, that have this rule. 

Badlands Bar 3 and the Jackson Hole Regulators.  To confirm the penalty in such a case, I suggest contacting those in charge.

[Chief Rick]

10 minutes ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

There are two clubs that I know of, that have this rule. 

Badlands Bar 3 and the Jackson Hole Regulators.  To confirm the penalty in such a case, I suggest contacting those in charge.

Jackson Hole Regulators = SDQ

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Bittertrigger said:

As one who has fallen with my shotgun in hand and thank God it was empty because when I hit the deck it closed and went click it would have taken out the uploading officer (Yes it broke the 170)

So matter where I shoot I will always plant & poke my shotgun 

my two cents worth 

I can think of many scenarios that could be dangerous. If we work hard at eliminating them all, we'll be left with no CAS game to play.

 

Know your limitations...accept  responsibility...don't force others to have to play the game with other's limitations.

 

Phantom

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

There are two clubs that I know of, that have this rule. 

Badlands Bar 3 and the Jackson Hole Regulators.  To confirm the penalty in such a case, I suggest contacting those in charge.

 

I coulda done that...figgered it was my turn to post a "WtC?" question on the Wire to see how many times the thread could go sideways before getting answers from those who might have first-hand information.

 

FWIW - I "Googled" the terms and found a number of club websites that listed that as a "club/range rule", but no references to the penalty for violation.

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Something for a few of you to think about.

 

Nobody thought this scenario up. There are at least two actual occurrences documented here. Wonder how many more have not, either because of embarrassment or the great reception proposing another rule receives?

 

In the first case the firearm discharged and IIRC broke the 170 before doing so. Fortunately it did not injure any one. In the second death or serious injury was avoided because the hammer fell on an empty chamber.  It has been pointed out that only shooters that do not know their limitations need to worry about this happening to them or that those that are in favor of this rule are stoopid or otherwise incompetent.

 

In all honesty can you say you have NEVER seen a  shooter fall or come close to falling simply because they stepped on their own expended rifle brass or shotgun hulls. Never mind slipping on a wet board walk, wet grass, or mud because that only happens to shooters that don't know their limitations or are otherwise just plain stoopid.  

 

Yes we have a lot of rules and no one wants the rule book to grow any larger; but does this one need to be written in blood before people recognize it as a real hazard and not one made up by someone that was too cautious???

 

[Bittertrigger]

8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I can think of many scenarios that could be dangerous. If we work hard at eliminating them all, we'll be left with no CAS game to play.

 

Know your limitations...accept  responsibility...don't force others to have to play the game with other's limitations.

 

Phantom

There is a third club that has the Plant & Poke rule, Texas Ten Horns and it was in place before my incident. It was how I was taught from the beginning, if you think about it your SKB Shotgun or pump Shotgun is cock when it’s open, mine at that time was a hammers shotgun. Not going to play the

would-a-could-a or should-a with anyone we all know stuff can happen. How many times have we heard of someone shooting them selfs in the leg because they cock the pistol and pulled the trigger while it’s still in the holster and we have a rule for that but it happens. Not trying to force my limitations on anybody, I come to your range and I will someday, I will play it by your range rules and when you come to our range and I hope you do you’ll play by our rules. It’s not a bad rule or a good rule it’s judt a rule that some play by is all, and to answer the OP question at the Texas Ten Horns it’s a SDQ 

[evil dogooder]

6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Something for a few of you to think about.

 

Nobody thought this scenario up. There are at least two actual occurrences documented here. Wonder how many more have not, either because of embarrassment or the great reception proposing another rule receives?

 

In the first case the firearm discharged and IIRC broke the 170 before doing so. Fortunately it did not injure any one. In the second death or serious injury was avoided because the hammer fell on an empty chamber.  It has been pointed out that only shooters that do not know their limitations need to worry about this happening to them or that those that are in favor of this rule are stoopid or otherwise incompetent.

 

In all honesty can you say you have NEVER seen a  shooter fall or come close to falling simply because they stepped on their own expended rifle brass or shotgun hulls. Never mind slipping on a wet board walk, wet grass, or mud because that only happens to shooters that don't know their limitations or are otherwise just plain stoopid.  

 

Yes we have a lot of rules and no one wants the rule book to grow any larger; but does this one need to be written in blood before people recognize it as a real hazard and not one made up by someone that was too cautious???

 

No I have never seen a shooter slip on shells. Yes I have seen a shooter fall on wet boardwalk. That shooter was competent enough to shift his body so his gun was pointed safely and his finger was out of the triggergaurd.

  I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you.  There definitely is a lack of competency.  either they are not correctly assessing  the condition of the range and adjusting their speed and movements accordingly,  or they are over estimating their abilities.  10s of 1000s of people participate in action shooting sports every year where you are shooting on the move.  Yet no ones dying. If you are loading on the move you need to realize that safety still comes first.  Even if it means it will hurt more when you land to keep the barrels down range. 

[Cowboy Junky]

15 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please...for gods sake...DO NOT IMPLEMENT THE STOOPID PLANT AND POKE RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

X10......lol. SASS has some of the tightest safety rules in shooting sports today and they don't even see it as an issue. These ranges that take issue probably started as slow fire target ranges and were unfamiliar with practical shooting disciplines.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

And here we go... The what ifs are coming.

 

If you move with a gun in hand, please do so in a safe manner. Finger off trigger... Maintain muzzle control (yes, even while falling).

 

It can be done...

 

Phantom

[Bittertrigger]

Here is a thought 

At Pistol Caliber Carbine Match I shot at the rule was if you are not shooting while moving Your Trigger Finger HAD to be off the trigger and outside the guard 

You get to load while on the move and it reduces the chance of a fall/discharge 

Just a thought 

[Bittertrigger]

7 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

X10......lol. SASS has some of the tightest safety rules in shooting sports today and they don't even see it as an issue. These ranges that take issue probably started as slow fire target ranges and were unfamiliar with practical shooting disciplines.  

Talk to T-Bone Dooley, Slick McClade or Hairtrigger Hayes about slow fire target ranges please