plant and/then poke "WtC?"

[Hoss]

None of the ranges I regularly shoot at have a "plant & poke" rule (that will change next month when I make my first trip to Badlands Bar 3, can't wait!!!!)  that being said, in general, While I will pull my shells, I normally don,\'t insert them until I am at firing position, or within a step of it. Having once tripped over my own feet and fell with a shotgun, (a 97) I know its easy to do. and I've seen other shooters slip and fall or trip and fall. I don't move with finger in trigger guard either, but falling can cause all sorts of things to happen that we don't intend. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

So does shooting when you have a heart attack...or aneurysm. All sorts of things could happen that one doesn't intend.

 

All of a sudden we have a problem with loading a SG on the move?????

 

Lord help us...

 

Phantom

[Bittertrigger]

I have been corrected 

at the Texas Ten Horns the penalty is a MSV for violating the plant & poke rule  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So does shooting when you have a heart attack...or aneurysm. All sorts of things could happen that one doesn't intend.

 

All of a sudden we have a problem with loading a SG on the move?????

 

Lord help us...

 

Phantom

 

No difference than loading a semi-auto with a magazine on the move, either. 

This time of year-heat stroke is a real concern where I live.

OLG

[Lead Monger]

Step by step, people are trying to turn this sport into "stand and deliver". Stop it now or this sport will die.

[Ramblin Gambler]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So does shooting when you have a heart attack...or aneurysm.

 

Having a heart attack in the middle of a stage would be a penalty of sorts.  You'd get a DNF, and if it wasn't the last stage you'd wind up with a MDQ.  So ... don't do that. 

[Hairtrigger Hayes]

8 hours ago, evil dogooder said:

No I have never seen a shooter slip on shells. Yes I have seen a shooter fall on wet boardwalk. That shooter was competent enough to shift his body so his gun was pointed safely and his finger was out of the triggergaurd.

  I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you.  There definitely is a lack of competency.  either they are not correctly assessing  the condition of the range and adjusting their speed and movements accordingly,  or they are over estimating their abilities.  10s of 1000s of people participate in action shooting sports every year where you are shooting on the move.  Yet no ones dying. If you are loading on the move you need to realize that safety still comes first.  Even if it means it will hurt more when you land to keep the barrels down range. 

Being mindful of what you are "going to do" when you fall is much easier to talk about that it is to do.  And we push our limits at every match especially when pitted against a formidable opponent.  Yes we should be as careful as possible when we move but accidents still happen.  Plant and poke offers the opportunity for an accident not to become a tragedy.

[Hairtrigger Hayes]

PaleWolf,

 

I shoot at three clubs regularly that have a plant and poke rule.  The Badlands Bar 3, the Red River Valley Cowpokes and my home club, the Texas Ten Horns.  At all three of these clubs the penalty is just a Minor Safety.  We use the "basketball travel" rule that at least one foot has to be planted before loading the shotgun.  Personally I like the rule and would have no objection to SASS adopting it as an added safety measure.  Having learned to shoot cowboy at plant and poke clubs the habit became so ingrained that I plant and poke no matter where I am.  I can't see that it slows me down at all and I think it's evident it hasn't slowed T-Bone or Slick down any.  Regardless of naysayer's opinions we will continue to enforce the P&P rule at the Texas Ten Horns.

 

[Totes Magoats]

I have not shot at a plant-n-poke club either. SDQ seemed like a stiff penalty, especially for a first timer at that club.  MSV seems fair.

 

If I remember correctly, I beleive there is also a club rule about not shucking live rounds from the shotgun as well.  Is that also a MSV?

 

Totes

[evil dogooder]

1 hour ago, Hairtrigger Hayes said:

Being mindful of what you are "going to do" when you fall is much easier to talk about that it is to do.  And we push our limits at every match especially when pitted against a formidable opponent.  Yes we should be as careful as possible when we move but accidents still happen.  Plant and poke offers the opportunity for an accident not to become a tragedy.

 Sorry but we disagree.   Western 3 gun ,ispc, 3 gun and others all move with loaded firearms.  It's perfectly safe. Falling and shooting somebody isn't an accident.  It's negligence.   Getting hyped up because your competing is no excuse for not using proper safety practices

[Chance Ramsay]

Last time I was at T Bones bar 3 range rule to plant and poke m.safety 5 seconds around here Florida no call if you stop before closing

[Hairtrigger Hayes]

29 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

 Sorry but we disagree.   Western 3 gun ,ispc, 3 gun and others all move with loaded firearms.  It's perfectly safe. Falling and shooting somebody isn't an accident.  It's negligence.   Getting hyped up because your competing is no excuse for not using proper safety practices

I've got no problem agreeing to disagree, especially on the notion that an accident is negligence.  Just isn't always the case.

[Null N. Void]

I shot a couple of three gun stages with modern firearms that basically required you to shoot on the move.  For me, even though it was the first time with a AR-15, a 9MM cocked on the move, and a race SG cocked on the move, and, it wasn't a problem.  If you have good gun handling techniques, they will carry over.  It was a bit odd, at first, to move with firearms having a live round in the chamber and the gun cocked, but we've been trained to keep the firearm pointed down range.  It wasn't a problem, with those guns, to wait to a target was visible and then move the trigger finger to the target and shoot it.

 

For the plant, then shoot clubs, it not a problem for me.  I have the shells in my hand and as you get to the position drop them in on the last step as opposed to dropping them in earlier.  Sometimes it's faster for me to drop it in earlier but I can live with a "Plant and Then Shoot" rule so long as I can have my shells in hand as I move.  Most times, I wait till a step before the next position.  In my opinion, you can have a problem at any time and it's no different on when a SG could be dropped. 

 

You can load and drop a SG anywhere.  It's how much you practice that determines how fast you can get and how well you handle the SG. 

 

It is Action Shooting!

[Lead Monger]

This is just stoopid! If you can't move from point A to point B without falling on your face you shouldn't be playing with guns. Period.

[Buffalo Bill Mathewson, 37826]

I agree I think we should implement a MDQ for dropping dead of a heart attack while shooting with a loaded gun in hand.

8 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Having a heart attack in the middle of a stage would be a penalty of sorts.  You'd get a DNF, and if it wasn't the last stage you'd wind up with a MDQ.  So ... don't do that. 

 

[Bittertrigger]

59 minutes ago, Lead Monger said:

This is just stoopid! If you can't move from point A to point B without falling on your face you shouldn't be playing with guns. Period.

I have so much to say about your comment but it more than likely get me kicked off the wire 

Never would I tell someone they can’t play this game because they trip or dropped their guns 

The day it happens to you I hope someone has it on video and post it for all to see just how graceful you are 

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And here we go... The what ifs are coming.

 

If you move with a gun in hand, please do so in a safe manner. Finger off trigger... Maintain muzzle control (yes, even while falling).

 

It can be done...

 

Phantom

 

And we have a winner!

Keep your finger off the trigger except when actually shooting and you shouldn't have a problem.

 

One of the four rules of gun safety right?

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

So PaleWolf.. 

Ya got 2 pages ..

and the answer was finally a MSV.. 

On page 2..

Wasn't it??

 

Rance 

Thinkin' yer askin too tough of a question..

[Cowboy Junky]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:59 AM, Bittertrigger said:

Talk to T-Bone Dooley, Slick McClade or Hairtrigger Hayes about slow fire target ranges please 

I know them and they are fine folks......but that doesn't take away form the fact this is an action sport. A cocked revolver is 100 times more dangerous than a shell in an unchambered shotgun and we have no issues with that...…...lol. I don't know what folks would do if they saw you running with a hot AR...…...I guess run the other way or ban the sport at the range??????

 

Honestly the folks that don't shoot there often and DO accidently load the shotgun (as they always have with no issues) would have a better chance of doing something unsafe trying to correct the issue as people are yelling at them and confusion is in the air. This is obviously opinionate but my opinion is you are fixing a problem that doesn't need fixing. 

[Hairtrigger Hayes]

35 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I know them and they are fine folks......but that doesn't take away form the fact this is an action sport. A cocked revolver is 100 times more dangerous than a shell in an unchambered shotgun and we have no issues with that...…...lol. I don't know what folks would do if they saw you running with a hot AR...…...I guess run the other way or ban the sport at the range??????

 

Honestly the folks that don't shoot there often and DO accidently load the shotgun (as they always have with no issues) would have a better chance of doing something unsafe trying to correct the issue as people are yelling at them and confusion is in the air. This is obviously opinionate but my opinion is you are fixing a problem that doesn't need fixing. 

But we don't move with the revolver when it is cocked.

 

If we all had the luxury of having bays with berms and all movement was down range I'd probably agree the plant and poke rule was ridiculous.  But given that so many clubs can only move laterally along the firing  line combined with the fact that many shooting houses/props don't allow a lot of space and it makes for a good argument in favor of P&P.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, Hairtrigger Hayes said:

But we don't move with the revolver when it is cocked.

 

If we all had the luxury of having bays with berms and all movement was down range I'd probably agree the plant and poke rule was ridiculous.  But given that so many clubs can only move laterally along the firing  line combined with the fact that many shooting houses/props don't allow a lot of space and it makes for a good argument in favor of P&P.

That's a straw man...

 

Now what if the revolver were a breaktop ?

 

Control your muzzle... Keep your finger off the trigger.

[Bittertrigger]

47 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I know them and they are fine folks......but that doesn't take away form the fact this is an action sport. A cocked revolver is 100 times more dangerous than a shell in an unchambered shotgun and we have no issues with that...…...lol. I don't know what folks would do if they saw you running with a hot AR...…...I guess run the other way or ban the sport at the range??????

 

Honestly the folks that don't shoot there often and DO accidently load the shotgun (as they always have with no issues) would have a better chance of doing something unsafe trying to correct the issue as people are yelling at them and confusion is in the air. This is obviously opinionate but my opinion is you are fixing a problem that doesn't need fixing. 

At all three of their ranges you plant & poke 

and they are not a slow fire range 

[Palo Verde, SASS # 56522]

On 8/6/2018 at 11:17 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

What is the penalty for loading a shotgun "on the move" in violation of a so-called "plant & poke" or "plant then poke" club/range rule?

I found a few references to that rule on club home pages (appreciate publication of advanced notice, BTW), but not all are clear as to the PENALTY.

 

 

 

Why don't you just call the Clubs and ask? Oh, that's right, I forgot, you don't make phone calls --- even when asked to do so.

 

And, as others above have said,  a local Club's or Range's Rules are theirs and some obviously wonder why you are even concerned. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

52 minutes ago, Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 said:

 

Why don't you just call the Clubs and ask? Oh, that's right, I forgot, you don't make phone calls --- even when asked to do so.

 

And, as others above have said,  a local Club's or Range's Rules are theirs and some obviously wonder why you are even concerned. 

 

I already addressed the suggestion to "just call the Clubs" back on page one of this thread.

I don't need to justify the reasons I posted this inquiry on the Wire to you or anyone else.

 

...and as far as making phone calls, if your request was related to the FMC that was submitted to the ROC, I had it "flagged" for follow-up, but it "fell off" the front page of my email string due to other ROC discussions. If you require any additional explanation regarding that application or wish to appeal the ruling...send it via EMAIL. 

[Lead Monger]

Place your rifle, shotgun and both revolvers on the table in front of you. Stage calls for 4 shotshells so place them on the table also. You don't need holsters or cartridge belts any more because drawing and reholstering can be dangerous. There is no longer a need for the "basketball rule" because no movement is allowed. Don't even think about shuffling your feet. The paper targets are directly in front of the table so no need for the 170 rule. The cone of fire is now 20 degrees. Never, ever can you have two firearms in hand at the same time. Loaded or not. Forget Gunfighter. 

Might as well just shoot Bullseye, in doors!

[Palo Verde, SASS # 56522]

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I already addressed the suggestion to "just call the Clubs" back on page one of this thread.

I don't need to justify the reasons I posted this inquiry on the Wire to you or anyone else.

 

...and as far as making phone calls, if your request was related to the FMC that was submitted to the ROC, I had it "flagged" for follow-up, but it "fell off" the front page of my email string due to other ROC discussions. If you require any additional explanation regarding that application or wish to appeal the ruling...send it via EMAIL. 

 

"I don't need to justify the reasons I posted this inquiry on the Wire to you or anyone else."    Friend, there is a difference between "justification" and "explanation" but my comment was not intended to solicit either -- it was a rhetorical suggestion --- much as others have suggested in this thread.

And,,, let us not for get that it is a mighty small pond, my friend. 

 

"if your request was related to the FMC "  Well, I guess you wouldn't have anyway of knowing, would you? Explanations and appeals were not for which I requested the call. I would not have brought up this issue on the Wire, but since you chose to, I will assume it is now open season  .  I will state that I found it disappointing that all members of the ROC did not get to weigh in on the issue.

 

"but it "fell off" the front page of my email string" I certainly understand. I had that happen once. I hate it when that happens. I even had a check get lost in the mail once.   And, my greatest thanks and sympathies for all the time you spend on other ROC discussions and my sincere wishes that you get to open all those emails soon..  

[Griff]

Oh MY GAWD... The Sky is Falling!  The end of cowboy action shooting is near!

 

From my beginnings in Cowboy Action Shooting I have wondered why there is no rule requiring the trigger finger be kept outside the trigger guard during movement.  Over time, I've learned that most TOs don't look that closely at the shooter's hand, usually just the direction of the barrel; I'm guilty of that myowndangedself, so am not finding any fault with other TOs.

 

 

 

P.S.:  If you want to be absolutely safe... stay in bed all day.  Unless of course, you live in an earthquake, tornado or hurricane area, maybe along a busy highway or even a dirt farm road...  If you want to shoot and have fun, simply obey the rules at whatever club you happen to be at...   be mindful of how your actions affect others present... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 said:

...

"if your request was related to the FMC "  Well, I guess you wouldn't have anyway of knowing, would you?

I had (apparently in error) assumed it was related due to the "subject" of the email...I NOW realize it was sent as an unrelated reply to the notification.

Explanations and appeals were not for which I requested the call. I would not have brought up this issue on the Wire, but since you chose to, I will assume it is now open season  .  

I will state that I found it disappointing that all members of the ROC did not get to weigh in on the issue.

The unanimous decision regarding the FMC was made by the ROC as a group over a period of time.
As representative of the ROC, I was directed to inform you of the final ruling...I do apologize for the delay.

 

"but it "fell off" the front page of my email string" I certainly understand. I had that happen once. I hate it when that happens. I even had a check get lost in the mail once.   And, my greatest thanks and sympathies for all the time you spend on other ROC discussions and my sincere wishes that you get to open all those emails soon..  

Thanks!

Next time I'll "flag" and PIN requested responses such as yours so that an extended email string won't move them off the front page.
Most of the ROC "discussions" are archived for future reference or for the purpose of tallying the "votes" on various issues while waiting for all of the Committee members to weigh in with their opinions or additional questions.

 

 

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

whats an FMC?

 

[Yusta B.]

Take this with a little salt & perhaps a bit of pepper. To the best of my feeble knowledge I believe this "plant & poke" requirement, at one club I am familiar with, is the result of a requirement the club insurance company specified as a result of a lawsuit brought by a shooter who was narrowly MISSED by a shotgun blast caused by another shooter moving from one shooting position to another and tripping while carrying an open loaded SXS. He got himself a great lawyer & a payoff which caused the insurer to require this rule. I don't agree or disagree with the rule but I follow it whenever it is announced at the safety meeting of any club I shoot at.

 

A few posters who are comparing our regs with other shooting disciplines might consider how comfortable they would be with everyone carrying their SXS as some of the trap shooters do - open, barrels draped over the shoulder & pointing at your face as you pass by. There is a very good reason at least one local club close to me has this rule. It isn't going to add minutes to anyone's score to have one foot planted before you load. If you can't stand to follow the rule then don't shoot at the clubs that have it. Simple as that. There - that should get us another page ........

[Flying W Ramrod]

Range rules be range rules.

However, if the club is stating "SASS RULES APPLY" and don't publish any exceptions, I'd ask for my money back and put them on the "do not resuscitate" list. Too many other clubs, that do follow SASS rules, to shoot at to suffer through this.

 

[Null N. Void]

The "insurance company says you must do this" came up when I was the Secretary/Treasurer of a club.  I decided to check the source document as opposed to hearsay.  When I went through the policy paragraph by paragraph, there was not a word about you must plant and poke or you can't load on the move.  

 

I just suggest that you check the insurance policy. When I checked, there was general liability wording but nothing specific to shooting styles.  There actually wasn't much about shooting. 

 

Just check what you have.  What I found is it wasn't what I assumed.

 

NNV

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

what's an FMC?

 

Quote

SASS recognizes the desire to enhance firearm performance.  Firearms manufacturers, importers, gunsmiths, and the membership as a whole must use caution in any quest to develop mechanisms designed to enhance the operation of firearms for Cowboy Action Shooting™.  Any firearm modification not specifically referenced in this Handbook is prohibited.  Parties interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration application from SASS Headquarters.  Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the only source of approval.  Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal.  

 

The use of a non-SASS legal firearm results in a Stage Disqualification (SDQ) for each stage the illegal firearm is used.  Penalties for illegal equipment/items and firearms are not awarded in arrears, but should be corrected before the competitor shoots the next stage. 

 

SHB p.32 - SECTION 6 - FIREARM COVENANTS

 

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

 Is winter over yet??

[T-Bone SASS #36388]

P & P is a rule at the Bar 3 Shooting range and has been since 2004. It's a Minor Safety 10 sec penalty. The rule has never stopped the winner from winning or the loser from losing. Yes, I did get sued early on by a shooter who fell, the out come cost some money and I learned a lot. If you own your club and want to continue to own it the  P $ P is a good rule,  Facts are ???? When your name is on the responsible .......... Line, and YOU'RE the one that stands to loose YOUR range, YOU might change your mind as to safety aspects.  After the P $ P rule has been in place for so many "safe" years of operation, why would you take away a safety rule????? If you do, and something happens, it turns into an easy case for the plaintiff to WIN.  You can add safety rules, but taking them away is very costly if an incident does  happen.  If something should happen on a range and God I hope it never does, the good ole boy that gets shot might not sue you or the range, but his family will because they don't give a Damn about You, Your Game, Your range, Your Family or SASS. They are worried about themselves and how their family is going to survive after a tragedy  or loss of a family member. If you think I'm wrong, please go to the court house and watch wrongful or negligent death cases.  Now that all this has been said I hope that this tread gets taken down because it could be used against you or your range someday.  Remember, if a HOT cup of coffee gets a Million dollars, then how much will  Daddy (the sole provider for his family), or Granddad ( the deacon of the Church and pillar of the community get),,,,,????? Hmmmm!