WTC

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Howdy

                We all know that we are all safety officers on the range..this is the question, if no spotters or the TO see.

 a safety violation but someone in the gallery says they have , what actuall weight does that have, does a discussion take place  for consideration or is it a no call  ??

[Curly Red Ryder]

IMO, only the officials can juge and make a call even for a safety violation (TO, Spotters, LTofficer and ULT officer).

[Dutch Coroner]

Heard about this happening once at a state match. One of the overall match range/safety officers stopped to watch a shooter, saw a safety infraction tha none of the posse officials saw, made the MDQ call and it stood.  My recollection is it was ONLY because they were one of the match officials.  If you aren’t spotting, running the timer or running the loading or unloading table, it’s a no call.

 

Dutch

[Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life]

We're all supposed to be safety officers so if someone other than the spotters or the TO sees a safety violation, they should report it as safety comes first.  I haven't seen something like this occur at a match though and hope I get backed up on this opinion.  

 

Shooter's Handbook Version 22.2 November 20, 2017 page 11

"All shooters are expected to remain alert for actions by others that are unsafe.  Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed, unsafe situation.  It is expected that the matter will quickly be corrected and not repeated.  Any argument concerning the correction of a safety related matter will result in that shooter being ejected from the range.  Please refer to the Safety Rules section of this handbook for all Safety Rules."

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

I agree with Lorelei but will await the correct decision 'from on high'

 

[Yusta B.]

From Shooters Handbook:

 

Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any
participant about an observed, unsafe situation.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

IMO, "confront" is key word, and if done politely should be accepted, and appreciated, by shooter.   TO should be given "heads up" on your observation also. However,  I, personally, do not think observer should insist on a penalty assessment.....not to say Lorelei was suggesting  penalty.

[Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life]

Billy,

I agree that "confront" can seem a little harsh.  I don't think it is meant to be harsh though.  I personally would bring it to the TO's attention (I don't like to confront people directly myself) and only if he didn't address the safety issue would I carry it any further to other match officials.  I do feel though that sometimes not calling a penalty is OK, but then again, when DO you call a penalty?  Does calling a penalty make the shooter more likely to not repeat the safety violation or not?  I know I've had penalties called on me that certainly made me more aware, but then again just being made aware of a situation would have made me try 1,000 times harder to never do it again.  That's just me.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

22 minutes ago, Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life said:

Billy,

I agree that "confront" can seem a little harsh.  I don't think it is meant to be harsh though.  I personally would bring it to the TO's attention (I don't like to confront people directly myself) and only if he didn't address the safety issue would I carry it any further to other match officials.  I do feel though that sometimes not calling a penalty is OK, but then again, when DO you call a penalty?  Does calling a penalty make the shooter more likely to not repeat the safety violation or not?  I know I've had penalties called on me that certainly made me more aware, but then again just being made aware of a situation would have made me try 1,000 times harder to never do it again.  That's just me.

You are quite right, making shooter aware of the violation in some manner would hopefully produce a good acceptance. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Examples:

Shooter coming off the stage to the ULT sweeping another shooter (or the ULTO) with the muzzle of a long gun; unobserved by the T/O or spotters.

Shooter sweeps others behind the line while removing/returning long guns from/to guncart.

Shooter sweeps another shooter at the LT while holstering a loaded revolver into a crossdraw holster.

Shooter steps away from LT with holstered loaded revolvers to go to cart to return ammo boxes or retrieve SG ammo.

Shooter walking around with a cocked (unloaded) revolver after being cleared at the ULT.

Frontiersman "pre-capping" charged revolvers (or cylinders) before going to the LT.

...

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

No penalty, really? If the shooter sweeps someone on the line you call it and they get the MDQ/SDQ deserved.  Behind the line they sweep someone and no penalty? How did the safety infraction become less important. And in not issuing the penalty you are in fact giving that shooter an advantage over their competition.

 

Break the rules you earn whatever penalty comes with it. On or off the line. And we are all safety officers, if you see it call it.

 

Ike

[Ace_of_Hearts]

We have all done things that we didn't know we did.

That is why it i always appreciated when someone brings our "mistakes" to our attention.

When walking through a crowd of people (as in returning to your gun cart) You need to be doubly cautious about muzzle position. Carry them high!

YOU ARE NOT AT A SKEET OR TRAP RANGE!

 

 

[Attica Jack #23953]

All participants in a cowboy shoot are range officers....we are playing with real guns and real ammo.  Any one can call a safety violation.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

To go further with my post I intentionally didn't give an example but PWB has mentioned a close example of reholstering with a cross draw...this particular instance occurred with myself last w'end on the line.

 

Stage was from 3 positions [ all tables ] all movement right to left, pistols were last.Spotters & TO all called clean..next shooter on the LT said I swept him  when taking pistol from the cross draw as I reached the table[ last position ]As I did draw the pistol earlier I may have broken the 170, others say I didn't ..I took on board what had happened & was okay with a SDQ if awarded, no penalty was given however a valuable lesson for myself ..'don't change the way I use the cross draw as in normally I would have the pistol out & downrange before I moved to the next position.

Without hesitation if I knew  for sure  I Was wrong  I would have SDQ myself .

[Kirk James]

Was Curley Red Ryder correct, and the other posse members let the shooter know as a warning?  If a posse member wants to let the posse marshal know they can.  Is that the clarification?  Sounds right to me.  Just by reading some members responses on other threads, I am not sure I would want them making a call at a state, national or world level without agreement of a spotter or TO.   Don't mean to be negative, but just read through the threads on spotting, WTC and others and you will see some opinions different from guidelines we are given. 

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

4 hours ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

All participants in a cowboy shoot are range officers....we are playing with real guns and real ammo.  Any one can call a safety violation.

It is expected the Chief Range Officer will be the responsible party for observing and resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas.  However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the CRO should call the infraction to a CRO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved.

ref SHB v22.3 pg 18

§ONLY Posse and Match Officials may judge a shooter whether on or away from the firing line

ref ROII course slide 115

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Look at PaleWolf's post for examples.

 

Plus the he paragraph listed on page 18

 

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

SHB 22.3 Page 18

It is expected the Chief Range Officer will be the responsible party for observing and resolving
all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas. However,
as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction
not witnessed by the CRO should call the infraction to a CRO’s attention, at which time the
matter will be resolved.

 

I believe this to say, If you see a violation, inform the CRO, he, and only he, will make the call.

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

22 hours ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

To go further with my post I intentionally didn't give an example but PWB has mentioned a close example of reholstering with a cross draw...this particular instance occurred with myself last w'end on the line.

 

Stage was from 3 positions [ all tables ] all movement right to left, pistols were last.Spotters & TO all called clean..next shooter on the LT said I swept him  when taking pistol from the cross draw as I reached the table[ last position ]As I did draw the pistol earlier I may have broken the 170, others say I didn't ..I took on board what had happened & was okay with a SDQ if awarded, no penalty was given however a valuable lesson for myself ..'don't change the way I use the cross draw as in normally I would have the pistol out & downrange before I moved to the next position.

Without hesitation if I knew  for sure  I Was wrong  I would have SDQ myself .

If it was a loaded gun and you swept someone then it's a Match DQ.,..not a SDQ?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

3 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

If it was a loaded gun and you swept someone then it's a Match DQ.,..not a SDQ?

 

This is true...both in the example re holstering at the LT and in the situation mentioned by the OP re drawing a loaded revolver during stage engagement.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

9 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

If it was a loaded gun and you swept someone then it's a Match DQ.,..not a SDQ?

 

Howdy Jackaroo..Yep can't argue with that mate, I kept relating incorrectly to a SDQ & not a MDQ.