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Cypress Sam, SASS #10915

How do you "outrun the gun?"

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10 yrs ago, a shot per second would win nationals. Totally different game today. Averaging in the mid teens will get you a category win, roughly. I've shot 8 or 9 yrs, and when I got to a shot per sec, 10, 10, and 4 in 24, everyone else jumped faster. I've been at it 8 or 9 yrs, and now average 16 to 17 for the match, and haven't quite made the top 16 list at WR. Totally different game today. Lunger

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Maybe one day when I grow up, this might be a problem for me. I don't come anywhere no where near running a gun as fast as it can go.

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Obviously, the best advice will come from the known fast guys, like Deuce & Junky on this topic.

However, I can share my experience in my own evolution, & I have decreased my stage times significantly over the last year, & that year over the previous. Here are some things I have learned:

If I try to shoot fast, I jack a round. If I think more about fast than hitting every single target every single time, I'm going to jack a round.

I decide on a cadence, ESPECIALLY for a dump, or 4+ shots on a target that is safe for me, & it isn't as fast as I think I can shoot.

I practice, usually 300-400 rounds/week. I'm fortunate to have a setup in my backyard with a mountain as my berm.

If I have a misfire, I give the mainspring a quarter turn tighter.

If it's a cold day (like 35 degrees or colder), & I'm at a shoot where I don't get a warmup stage to test everything, I'll tighten the mainspring a quarter-turn anyway, cause I know it's more likely to misfire on a cold morning.

Even if it's a dump, focus on every single shot hitting the target. If you do that, & if you practice at least once/week, the speed will take care of itself.

 

It's a lot like golf, as others have pointed out before. If you try to hit the ball hard, it doesn't work out. If you swing smoothly & correctly, you'll be amazed at how far the ball goes & how well things turn out. That's the only thing I learned at golf, because even though I played regularly & faithfully once a year, I never got any better.

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I'm pretty much convinced that a mere mortal can't outrun a properly timed rifle.

 

I remember reading of Ed McGivern, who could fire 6 shots from a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver in 2/5 of a second with all shots hitting a playing card. I also remember reading that McGivern could pull the trigger of a semi auto pistol faster than it could reset the disconnecter. I've also seen videos of Bob Munden "bump firing" a 1911 so fast that it sounded like a machine gun.

 

I would really like to see some high speed video (super slo mo) of someone shooting fast enough to outrun the gun! I remain unconvinced.

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I run my rifle in 2.5 or slightly faster, I have a rifle that will give me fits about half the time when I run at that speed, its perfect at around 3 seconds or more, my first thought was that the problem was the loose nut behind the trigger but my other rifle runs great as fast as I can run, which is around 2.2 on a good day, with a problem less that one time in ten. The guns are as close as possible in trigger pull, stroke length and spring tension. The one that won't run (for me) is a Miroku, love the guns balance and weight but had to go back to my old Uberti. I thought I was outrunning the gun but after reading these posts I suspect the gun needs to be run differently in some way that I can't figure out. I worked with the Miroku for over 2 years but think I need to find a buyer that runs in the 3 plus second range.

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Sam

 

Thank Goodness I don't have to worry about such things

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Sorry have to disagree, locktime not a factor in CAS.

 

 

In my opinion the lock time argument is a sales gimmick and nothing more. I have seen some very lightly sprung guns run extremely fast. I am not saying that it's not possible to outrun ahammer with a light spring, but if there are shooters who can they are damn few and I have not met any.

 

 

Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs.

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J am out of state and under the weather but upon regaining my health, the second thing I am going

to do is try to "out run" my Henry Big Boy. I have heard so much BS on the wire about pards that

don't even know about Big Boys that still slam them I am going to see if there's even a glimmer of

truth to there blather!!! I will try to outrun my BB using both my regular wart hog loads and some

smokeless rounds.

 

My first task is to curry and pet my two kitty cats, Max & Kitty!!!

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Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs.

SASSmandated standard weight parts? That's a new one for me.

 

I am curious who this shooter is.

Edited by Smokestack

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What you are describing is personal timing. Heavy springs etc are bandaids.There are a couple guys commenting on this thread who achieve shot splits that cannot be measured on a timer on CAS steel. I know at least 2 of them don't depend on heavier springs to do that.And being a World champ and the like has less to do with shots splits and lock time and more about surviving for 3 days mistake free as possible.

 

 

 

Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs.

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I am out of the state and under the weather. BUT as soon as I get back to Idaho and my personal range

I plan on trying to out run my Henry Big Boy .445 Colt rifle. I will use my regular wart hog loads

of Holy black as well as some smokeless.

 

A few pards, who despite never even seen one let alone shooting one, say that Henry's can be outrun.

If so, they are the only rifle that can actually be outrun. We shall see what we shall see.

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Someone who can outrun stock wheel guns is Jerry Miculek. The S&W Performance Center makes all his wheel guns. They use heavier than stock trigger & hammer springs to reduce the hammer drop time and trigger reset time. Otherwise the gun can't keep up with the speed of his trigger finger.

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SASSmandated standard weight parts? That's a new one for me.

 

I am curious who this shooter is.

From the Shooters handbook version 21.8k

Page #3

"Any

firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited."

 

Page #4

"Replacement parts may be made from materials other than the original unless such material is

specifically prohibited."

 

I don't have the time to chase down the specific rule but before there was the Firearms Covenant lightweight materials like Titanium and such was not allowed. I don't think that has changed .

 

As for who, I would never mention a name without the persons permission.

 

 

What you are describing is personal timing. Heavy springs etc are bandaids.There are a couple guys commenting on this thread who achieve shot splits that cannot be measured on a timer on CAS steel. I know at least 2 of them don't depend on heavier springs to do that.And being a World champ and the like has less to do with shots splits and lock time and more about surviving for 3 days mistake free as possible.

 

 

 

Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs.

 

 

I agree. But, lighter parts would be a bandaid too.

  • Like 1

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The only specific "material" reference related to replacement parts I was able to find was re revolver cylinders:

 

"Cylinders must be made of steel or iron only."

SHB p.8

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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The only specific "material" reference related to replacement parts I was able to find was re revolver cylinders:

 

"Cylinders must be made of steel or iron only."

SHB p.8

That was my understanding as well, thank you Palewolf.

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Found one more, but it is not relevant to this discussion:

 

Brass or aluminum grip frames are allowed.

(same page)

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The only specific "material" reference related to replacement parts I was able to find was re revolver cylinders:

 

"Cylinders must be made of steel or iron only."

SHB p.8

 

So titanium hammers and firing pins would be allowed?

 

Like I said, IIRC before the Firearms covenant there were rules barring such thinks.

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So titanium hammers and firing pins would be allowed?

 

Like I said, IIRC before the Firearms covenant there were rules barring such thinks.

Titanium firing pins are allowed and available. A titanium hammer would probably not work very well.

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Titanium firing pins are allowed and available. A titanium hammer would probably not work very well.

 

You are correct. I forgot about the marlin firing pins. Titanium hammers do work and much faster too.

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You are correct. I forgot about the marlin firing pins. Titanium hammers do work and much faster too.

It would appear that the rule quoted from page 4 allows titanium hammers as that material is not specifically prohibited for replacement parts.

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I'd prefer the weight of a regular hammer to deliver the energy to the firing pin. Also like really light springs, and figure if they'll run at a .17 split during a dump with my 73, then i'm not out running it. Smokestacks splits are lower yet, and he didn't outrun it either. At regular match speed during sweeping and double tapping, and triple tapping, at a .25 to a .28 split, I have confidence I won't outrun my rifle. I once installed a lightened firing pin extension. The gun immediately had intermittent misfires. It came back out of the gun immediately and it went back to delivering nice deep dents to the primers, and perfect ignition. If I cranked the mainspring down tighter it would have worked, but the gun would not cycle easy anymore. It would have slowed me down for sure trying to operate a heavy sprung rifle. Lunger

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You are correct. I forgot about the marlin firing pins. Titanium hammers do work and much faster too.

The new 'Cowboy' 97 SG, have Ti, F/Ps factory installed.

OLG

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It would appear that the rule quoted from page 4 allows titanium hammers as that material is not specifically prohibited for replacement parts.

 

 

Thanks PWB

Good to know. I always run on the assumption that it was still not allowed.

Just to clarify, would this Titanium part need to be approved by SASS?

 

The reason I ask. From SHB page 4

Just because a manufacturer

designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not

necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as

allowed are approved. All others are illegal.......................................................................................................................for SASS Cowboy Action Shooting™. Any

firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited.

 

As written it would appear the material may be allowed but the actual part may not be allowed.

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Thanks PWB

Good to know. I always run on the assumption that it was still not allowed.

Just to clarify, would this Titanium part need to be approved by SASS?

 

The reason I ask. From SHB page 4

Just because a manufacturer

designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not

necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as

allowed are approved. All others are illegal.......................................................................................................................for SASS Cowboy Action Shooting™. Any

firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited.

 

As written it would appear the material may be allowed but the actual part may not be allowed.

Just to be on the safe side, I would recommend submission of an FMC to the ROC for approval before installing a Ti hammer.

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I find it interesting that the two guys with the fastest gun speed in the game say lock time doesn't matter, yet some people are still "guessing" that it does. Weird

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That brings up the elephant hiding in the closet. Single action shooting.. Where we use guns designed pre 1900 or modern replicas. Because im sure you saw a lot of shotguns honed, funneled with a stay open notch. Or short stroked, wide lowered hammered colts. Short stoked 73s with straight triggers. Titanium parts. The leather we use. Boots. Even clothes are designed for speed.

 

The sport has changed from what it was to, as long as it looks somewhat close the sky is the limit. 20 years ago how many of those mods would have been allowed? I had the chance to talk with judge roy bean when he came to gunsmoke a few years ago. I recieved some very interesting answers.

 

Don't get me wrong i love this sport and the people in it. I see the sport as it is now. Not as it was. Ive only been to a few throwback shoots that went by the old rules. It was definitely different. Not better not worse. Just different. But how far is it going to erode from what it started out as?

 

 

Can a human outrun the mechanics of a gun? Yes, it can be done but it takes some serious skill. Using lighter parts, heavier springs,and mods to the design can help with that too.

 

The people that have that skill like duece and smokestack also have the knowledge to adjust their body and rhythm to achieve the maximum potential of the machine. So they will not out run it. Instead they show us the dynamics that make our jaws drop.

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Lock time smock time......I don't believe anyone that says "they can outrun a properly tuned gun".

 

Stan

Yeah bu I knew a guy who knew guy.............ah nevermind

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Someone told me that a mysterious stranger knew a guy that witnessed...... :P

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I seem to be able to outrun my ability to shoot a gun at times.

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