Lunger Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 10 yrs ago, a shot per second would win nationals. Totally different game today. Averaging in the mid teens will get you a category win, roughly. I've shot 8 or 9 yrs, and when I got to a shot per sec, 10, 10, and 4 in 24, everyone else jumped faster. I've been at it 8 or 9 yrs, and now average 16 to 17 for the match, and haven't quite made the top 16 list at WR. Totally different game today. Lunger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuse Rivers Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Maybe one day when I grow up, this might be a problem for me. I don't come anywhere no where near running a gun as fast as it can go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Payne Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Obviously, the best advice will come from the known fast guys, like Deuce & Junky on this topic. However, I can share my experience in my own evolution, & I have decreased my stage times significantly over the last year, & that year over the previous. Here are some things I have learned: If I try to shoot fast, I jack a round. If I think more about fast than hitting every single target every single time, I'm going to jack a round. I decide on a cadence, ESPECIALLY for a dump, or 4+ shots on a target that is safe for me, & it isn't as fast as I think I can shoot. I practice, usually 300-400 rounds/week. I'm fortunate to have a setup in my backyard with a mountain as my berm. If I have a misfire, I give the mainspring a quarter turn tighter. If it's a cold day (like 35 degrees or colder), & I'm at a shoot where I don't get a warmup stage to test everything, I'll tighten the mainspring a quarter-turn anyway, cause I know it's more likely to misfire on a cold morning. Even if it's a dump, focus on every single shot hitting the target. If you do that, & if you practice at least once/week, the speed will take care of itself. It's a lot like golf, as others have pointed out before. If you try to hit the ball hard, it doesn't work out. If you swing smoothly & correctly, you'll be amazed at how far the ball goes & how well things turn out. That's the only thing I learned at golf, because even though I played regularly & faithfully once a year, I never got any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 I'm pretty much convinced that a mere mortal can't outrun a properly timed rifle. I remember reading of Ed McGivern, who could fire 6 shots from a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver in 2/5 of a second with all shots hitting a playing card. I also remember reading that McGivern could pull the trigger of a semi auto pistol faster than it could reset the disconnecter. I've also seen videos of Bob Munden "bump firing" a 1911 so fast that it sounded like a machine gun. I would really like to see some high speed video (super slo mo) of someone shooting fast enough to outrun the gun! I remain unconvinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I run my rifle in 2.5 or slightly faster, I have a rifle that will give me fits about half the time when I run at that speed, its perfect at around 3 seconds or more, my first thought was that the problem was the loose nut behind the trigger but my other rifle runs great as fast as I can run, which is around 2.2 on a good day, with a problem less that one time in ten. The guns are as close as possible in trigger pull, stroke length and spring tension. The one that won't run (for me) is a Miroku, love the guns balance and weight but had to go back to my old Uberti. I thought I was outrunning the gun but after reading these posts I suspect the gun needs to be run differently in some way that I can't figure out. I worked with the Miroku for over 2 years but think I need to find a buyer that runs in the 3 plus second range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Sam Thank Goodness I don't have to worry about such things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Problem was mostly jacked rounds with light primer hits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Sorry have to disagree, locktime not a factor in CAS. In my opinion the lock time argument is a sales gimmick and nothing more. I have seen some very lightly sprung guns run extremely fast. I am not saying that it's not possible to outrun ahammer with a light spring, but if there are shooters who can they are damn few and I have not met any. Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 J am out of state and under the weather but upon regaining my health, the second thing I am going to do is try to "out run" my Henry Big Boy. I have heard so much BS on the wire about pards that don't even know about Big Boys that still slam them I am going to see if there's even a glimmer of truth to there blather!!! I will try to outrun my BB using both my regular wart hog loads and some smokeless rounds. My first task is to curry and pet my two kitty cats, Max & Kitty!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs. SASSmandated standard weight parts? That's a new one for me. I am curious who this shooter is. Edited January 12, 2017 by Smokestack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 What you are describing is personal timing. Heavy springs etc are bandaids.There are a couple guys commenting on this thread who achieve shot splits that cannot be measured on a timer on CAS steel. I know at least 2 of them don't depend on heavier springs to do that.And being a World champ and the like has less to do with shots splits and lock time and more about surviving for 3 days mistake free as possible. Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I am out of the state and under the weather. BUT as soon as I get back to Idaho and my personal range I plan on trying to out run my Henry Big Boy .445 Colt rifle. I will use my regular wart hog loads of Holy black as well as some smokeless. A few pards, who despite never even seen one let alone shooting one, say that Henry's can be outrun. If so, they are the only rifle that can actually be outrun. We shall see what we shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Someone who can outrun stock wheel guns is Jerry Miculek. The S&W Performance Center makes all his wheel guns. They use heavier than stock trigger & hammer springs to reduce the hammer drop time and trigger reset time. Otherwise the gun can't keep up with the speed of his trigger finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 SASSmandated standard weight parts? That's a new one for me. I am curious who this shooter is. From the Shooters handbook version 21.8k Page #3 "Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited." Page #4 "Replacement parts may be made from materials other than the original unless such material is specifically prohibited." I don't have the time to chase down the specific rule but before there was the Firearms Covenant lightweight materials like Titanium and such was not allowed. I don't think that has changed . As for who, I would never mention a name without the persons permission. What you are describing is personal timing. Heavy springs etc are bandaids.There are a couple guys commenting on this thread who achieve shot splits that cannot be measured on a timer on CAS steel. I know at least 2 of them don't depend on heavier springs to do that.And being a World champ and the like has less to do with shots splits and lock time and more about surviving for 3 days mistake free as possible. Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs. I agree. But, lighter parts would be a bandaid too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) The only specific "material" reference related to replacement parts I was able to find was re revolver cylinders: "Cylinders must be made of steel or iron only." SHB p.8 Edited January 13, 2017 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 The only specific "material" reference related to replacement parts I was able to find was re revolver cylinders: "Cylinders must be made of steel or iron only." SHB p.8 That was my understanding as well, thank you Palewolf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Found one more, but it is not relevant to this discussion: Brass or aluminum grip frames are allowed. (same page) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 The only specific "material" reference related to replacement parts I was able to find was re revolver cylinders: "Cylinders must be made of steel or iron only." SHB p.8 So titanium hammers and firing pins would be allowed? Like I said, IIRC before the Firearms covenant there were rules barring such thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 So titanium hammers and firing pins would be allowed? Like I said, IIRC before the Firearms covenant there were rules barring such thinks. Titanium firing pins are allowed and available. A titanium hammer would probably not work very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Titanium firing pins are allowed and available. A titanium hammer would probably not work very well. You are correct. I forgot about the marlin firing pins. Titanium hammers do work and much faster too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 You are correct. I forgot about the marlin firing pins. Titanium hammers do work and much faster too. It would appear that the rule quoted from page 4 allows titanium hammers as that material is not specifically prohibited for replacement parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I'd prefer the weight of a regular hammer to deliver the energy to the firing pin. Also like really light springs, and figure if they'll run at a .17 split during a dump with my 73, then i'm not out running it. Smokestacks splits are lower yet, and he didn't outrun it either. At regular match speed during sweeping and double tapping, and triple tapping, at a .25 to a .28 split, I have confidence I won't outrun my rifle. I once installed a lightened firing pin extension. The gun immediately had intermittent misfires. It came back out of the gun immediately and it went back to delivering nice deep dents to the primers, and perfect ignition. If I cranked the mainspring down tighter it would have worked, but the gun would not cycle easy anymore. It would have slowed me down for sure trying to operate a heavy sprung rifle. Lunger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 You are correct. I forgot about the marlin firing pins. Titanium hammers do work and much faster too. The new 'Cowboy' 97 SG, have Ti, F/Ps factory installed. OLG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 It would appear that the rule quoted from page 4 allows titanium hammers as that material is not specifically prohibited for replacement parts. Thanks PWB Good to know. I always run on the assumption that it was still not allowed. Just to clarify, would this Titanium part need to be approved by SASS? The reason I ask. From SHB page 4 Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal.......................................................................................................................for SASS Cowboy Action Shooting™. Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited. As written it would appear the material may be allowed but the actual part may not be allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Thanks PWB Good to know. I always run on the assumption that it was still not allowed. Just to clarify, would this Titanium part need to be approved by SASS? The reason I ask. From SHB page 4 Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal.......................................................................................................................for SASS Cowboy Action Shooting™. Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited. As written it would appear the material may be allowed but the actual part may not be allowed. Just to be on the safe side, I would recommend submission of an FMC to the ROC for approval before installing a Ti hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I find it interesting that the two guys with the fastest gun speed in the game say lock time doesn't matter, yet some people are still "guessing" that it does. Weird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I get ahead of myself by moving the weapon to the next target too soon and missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 That brings up the elephant hiding in the closet. Single action shooting.. Where we use guns designed pre 1900 or modern replicas. Because im sure you saw a lot of shotguns honed, funneled with a stay open notch. Or short stroked, wide lowered hammered colts. Short stoked 73s with straight triggers. Titanium parts. The leather we use. Boots. Even clothes are designed for speed. The sport has changed from what it was to, as long as it looks somewhat close the sky is the limit. 20 years ago how many of those mods would have been allowed? I had the chance to talk with judge roy bean when he came to gunsmoke a few years ago. I recieved some very interesting answers. Don't get me wrong i love this sport and the people in it. I see the sport as it is now. Not as it was. Ive only been to a few throwback shoots that went by the old rules. It was definitely different. Not better not worse. Just different. But how far is it going to erode from what it started out as? Can a human outrun the mechanics of a gun? Yes, it can be done but it takes some serious skill. Using lighter parts, heavier springs,and mods to the design can help with that too. The people that have that skill like duece and smokestack also have the knowledge to adjust their body and rhythm to achieve the maximum potential of the machine. So they will not out run it. Instead they show us the dynamics that make our jaws drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Lock time smock time......I don't believe anyone that says "they can outrun a properly tuned gun". Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Lock time smock time......I don't believe anyone that says "they can outrun a properly tuned gun". Stan Yeah bu I knew a guy who knew guy.............ah nevermind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Someone told me that a mysterious stranger knew a guy that witnessed...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.W. Sinclair Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I seem to be able to outrun my ability to shoot a gun at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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