Is the Uberti 1873 Cattleman Black Powder Revolver legal for plainsman?

[Cherokee Sam]

Is the Uberti 1873 Cattleman Black Powder Revolver legal for plainsman?

[Noz]

No. That is a gun that was made strictly for the European market to avoid some of their more restrictive laws.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Cool gun but not legal for us!

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Nope. Not legal for CAS at all.

[Griff]

Nope. Not legal for CAS at all.

It is only not legal for Frontiersman, and therefore, also not legal for Plainsman. It is legal for other main match categories. While it isn't listed as "allowed" as a main match revolver, it's "exception" from Frontiersman infers that it is legal as a main match gun. For it is a Colt SAA replica.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Griff

[Fingers McGee]

I don't believe it is. If it is not legal for Frontiersman, then it wouldn't be a legal main match gun; which would disqualify it from the other categories as well.

 

What does the ROC say?

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Kid Rich]

Why would they not be legal for CAS? kR

[Noz]

Rules committee or WB one ruled many years ago that they were not legal.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Shooter's Handbook, page 3 -- From the "SASS FIREARMS COVENANTS" section:

 

........................Original and replicas may be used in competition provided they are in good, safe working order.

 

...............................Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not

necessarily mean it is legal for competition.

 

.....................Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict.

 

The Uberti Cattleman BP guns only look like guns used in the old west. There was no firing mechanism anything like the off-set hammer design you see on them. So they are not replicas of anything. As Noz said, they are made to allow European shooters to shoot a gun resembling a late 19th century Colt SAA, but it is not centerfire, and cannot be converted to centerfire.

 

1851s, 1860s, etc are pretty good replicas. Remington 1858s are good replicas. One could argue that the Ruger Old Army is a replica of the Rogers & Spencer or a Remington 1858. They function the same with a few refinements. Not so with the Uberti Cattleman BP revolver.

 

--Dawg

[Griff]

I went thru the OOWSS website and my copy of the short-lived,yet never adopted, SASS Firearms Covenents (2006) and found no mention of this ruling. And although developed for the European market, they were also sold here. Other'n the hammer (special firing pin), and cylinder, they use the same parts as their centerfire "Cattleman"... how is that "different". Other'n loading the cylinder out of the gun or using Uberti's loading tool, they function like the other replicas of the SAA...

 

I know they were never legal for the original "BP" category and that carried over to Frontiersman. But, only due the fact that they were not a replica of any original percussion revolver of the period. I do not recall them being outlawed for other main match categories. While any legal Frontiersman revolver can be used in any main match category, I don't find any inference that the 1873 BP Cattleman being excluded Frontiersman, makes it illegal for other main match categories.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

.....................Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict.

 

Wouldn't this statement completely rule out ruger vaqueros and new vaqueros?

 

As for the bp cattleman, I'm not really sure what the point is. Other than states and countries where SAA clones are not allowed that is.

[Three Foot Johnson]

FRONTIERSMAN

Any Main Match percussion revolver with non-adjustable sights

(Note exceptions listed re:dovetailed sights)

. (Exception: The 1873 Uberti percussion revolver is not allowed.

 

THE PLAINSMAN

This event requires two .36 caliber or larger Frontiersman Category style percussion revolvers,

shot Duelist style.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems pretty clear cut to me - not legal in Frontiersman or Plainsman, but not excluded in any other categories.

Oh, and with a little work, they CAN be converted to centerfire.

Edited December 25, 2016 by J Bar Binks, #47015

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Nope. Not legal for CAS at all.

 

Well that is your opinion, mine is they are and always have been legal main match 6 guns.

 

Rules committee or WB one ruled many years ago that they were not legal.

 

 

I am with Griff and I have also been around these parts a long time now and I do not remember any such ruling...

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

.....................Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict.

 

Wouldn't this statement completely rule out ruger vaqueros and new vaqueros? No. Ruger Vaqueros OPERATES as a single action like the original 1873 Colts.

 

As for the bp cattleman, I'm not really sure what the point is. Other than states and countries where SAA clones are not allowed that is.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

As soon as someone finds an "original" 1873 Patent Colt SAA intended to run with Percussion cylinders .. we can talk.

[Griff]

As soon as someone finds an "original" 1873 Patent Colt SAA intended to run with Percussion cylinders .. we can talk.

Would it then be appropriate to ask for the pre-1899 patents for the "Blackhawk", et al? Since none of the SAA "clones" are exact replicas, is one obligated to only use the Colt SAA or Remington 1875/90s? (No answer required, I already know the answers).

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

as I recall the 73 cap and ball is illegal period,,, having said that, the new Henrys are allowed so why not those...

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

nossir it is not illegal for categories other than frontiersman and plainsman side match, and never has been.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

 

 

.....................Firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict.

 

Wouldn't this statement completely rule out ruger vaqueros and new vaqueros? No. Ruger Vaqueros OPERATES as a single action like the original 1873 Colts.

 

As for the bp cattleman, I'm not really sure what the point is. Other than states and countries where SAA clones are not allowed that is.

I guess that depends on your definition of operates. I don't recall ever seeing an original single action colt with a transfer bar an no firing pin on the hammer. Seems like an integral part of the operating mechanism to me.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Ya don't see too many original centerfire 1860's or Spencers in this game either.

 

Good grief, shoot what ya want, within the rules of course, and go have fun. Ya'll are going to go into meltdown when someone shows up shooting an 1895 Nagant with a .32acp conversion cylinder.

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

Redwood Kid, on 26 Dec 2016 - 2:46 PM, said:

I guess that depends on your definition of operates. I don't recall ever seeing an original single action colt with a transfer bar an no firing pin on the hammer. Seems like an integral part of the operating mechanism to me.

Cock hammer, pull trigger = single action. How the internal mechanism is constructed is irrelevant to me.

Edited December 26, 2016 by I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

Ya don't see too many original centerfire 1860's or Spencers in this game either.

 

Good grief, shoot what ya want, within the rules of course, and go have fun. Ya'll are going to go into meltdown when someone shows up shooting an 1895 Nagant with a .32acp conversion cylinder.

+!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition.

 

page 9 shooter's handbook,,,,

 

it isn't an approved replica....or it wud be allowed in frontiersman...

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Cock hammer, pull trigger = single action. How the internal mechanism is constructed is irrelevant to me.

So then you are ok with the op's gun? Cock hammer, pull trigger, right?

Edited December 27, 2016 by Redwood Kid

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Piling On to Culpepper's post # 23. Read the book. Read the book the way it is written. Not how you want it to read. The Uberti Percussion 73 look-alike has NEVER been a legal Main Match Revolver.

 

Pretty soon we're gonna need lawn chairs, popcorn and peanuts

Edited December 27, 2016 by Colorado Coffinmaker

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

ha ha and I maintain it has always been a legal main match revolver

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

this is a modification of an original design..correct? then show us that it is indeed an approved modification.... if it is not listed it is not legal...

[Snakebite]

My memory of this issue may not be correct,and I have finally discarded most of the notes that I had of the many discussions while I was the Chair of the ROC. But my recollections are that the revolver in question was disapproved for use in SASS competition, at least in the USA. I'm sure that PW has his notes.... he has notes from the first Sand Box meeting in his Kindergarten class!

 

Snakebite

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

My memory of this issue may not be correct,and I have finally discarded most of the notes that I had of the many discussions while I was the Chair of the ROC. But my recollections are that the revolver in question was disapproved for use in SASS competition, at least in the USA. I'm sure that PW has his notes.... he has notes from the first Sand Box meeting in his Kindergarten class!

 

Snakebite

yup,,,

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

This discussion is indicative of one the problems associated with an "anything goes @ the monthly match level" policy.

We see firearms, equipment, and accoutrements being used on a regular basis and eventually everyone assumes those items are legal, regardless of whether they actually are or not.

 

I don't currently have immediate access to my meeting notes at which we discussed the percussion SAA for main match use in any category other than the BP cats.

 

Two past members of the ROC have the same recollection regarding that model revolver as I do...

 

That it was NOT APPROVED as a main match firearm except for those countries where civilian ownership of cartridge handguns is prohibited.

 

[Griff]

I don't currently have immediate access to my meeting notes at which we discussed the percussion SAA for main match use in any category other than the BP cats.

 

Two past members of the ROC have the same recollection regarding that model revolver as I do...

 

That it was NOT APPROVED as a main match firearm except for those countries where civilian ownership of cartridge handguns is prohibited.

 

Thank you PaleWolf. That is not quite the same as illegal for use in CAS.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is so!!!

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Piling ON .... PLUS ONE to Culpepper!! Good Grief.

[Reuben McCoy Rankin # 34239]

Piling On to Culpepper's post # 23. Read the book. Read the book the way it is written. Not how you want it to read. The Uberti Percussion 73 look-alike has NEVER been a legal Main Match Revolver.

 

Pretty soon we're gonna need lawn chairs, popcorn and peanuts

And beer!!!

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Well we are all agreed the thing is not legal for Frontiersman and Plainsman. I do not believe anyone here is advocating that it should be. But in a fantasy westworld where we welcome the Blackhawk and the Big Boy and the Old Army more or less enthusiastically, I am so at a loss why so many are so opposed to this thingie being allowed in the other main match categories? What is the possible harm or complaint? I do not use them and will not altho I own 3 of the thingies. Oh someday I may just for fun at our little local matches and no one around these parts will grouse about it.

 

Usually when PWB chimes in on the other side of an issue from me I will fold my tent and slink away into the outer darkness with my tail between me legs. Not this time. My memory still says it was approved way back in the day and not just for those commie countries far away but this one as well. I wish someone had the ear of the Judge and would tell us his thought(s) on the matter. Ah well, so it goes...