44.40 using black, for Long Range Side Match, which boolit?

[Cemetery]

Which boolit do you 44.40 shooters use when participating in the long range side matches?

 

I use Big Loobs for regular matches, and tried the 100 yard match, and as expected, these boolits went all over the place.

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Slug the bore to confirm bullet dia is correct.

 

OLG

[Tyrel Cody]

What Lumpy said, sounds like you have something weird going on.

 

I use .429 180 grain bullets from Lead Ringer. Almost full case of Goex FFG and tad of lizard litter topped with crisco. I haven't grouped on paper but have no trouble hitting 10 steel targets at 100yards.

[Cemetery]

Slug the bore to confirm bullet dia is correct.

 

OLG

 

 

What Lumpy said, sounds like you have something weird going on.

 

I use .429 180 grain bullets from Lead Ringer. Almost full case of Goex FFG and tad of lizard litter topped with crisco. I haven't grouped on paper but have no trouble hitting 10 steel targets at 100yards.

 

Using the correct dia boolit, unfortunately Big Loobs are unreliable for long range side matches since they're front heavy and at some point (25? 50? yrds) they start to tumble, it was explained to me when I tried hitting steel at 200yrds a few years ago. And an old thread over on the Open Range shows very mixed results using Big Loobs.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

Using the correct dia boolit, unfortunately Big Loobs are unreliable for long range side matches since they're front heavy and at some point (25? 50? yrds) they start to tumble, it was explained to me when I tried hitting steel at 200yrds a few years ago. (though I've heard good things about Big Loob 45.70s)

 

Really?

 

I must admit I have little experience shooting Big Lube bullets farther than normal CAS pistol target distances, but it seems to me a front heavy bullet would have less tendency to tumble than a rear heavy bullet.

 

Could I be wrong about this?

 

I size all my 200 grain Mav-Dutchman bullets to .428, which work will in my .427 and .429 diameter rifle barrels.

 

Can't see well enough to aim at a target 100 yards away.

 

Although if the piece of paper were big enough I might be able to try.

[McCandless]

This discussion on that subject might help:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=36795.0

 

They seem to recommend a well balanced bullet like this: https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/4440-lyman-427098-205gr-fn-pb/

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

The downside is that the 44-40 is not allowed in "Long Range" SASS side matches as a rifle caliber. Local exceptions aside, of course.

 

CR

[Cemetery]

 

Really?

 

I must admit I have little experience shooting Big Lube bullets farther than normal CAS pistol target distances, but it seems to me a front heavy bullet would have less tendency to tumble than a rear heavy bullet.

 

Could I be wrong about this?

 

I size all my 200 grain Mav-Dutchman bullets to .428, which work will in my .427 and .429 diameter rifle barrels.

 

Can't see well enough to aim at a target 100 yards away.

 

Although if the piece of paper were big enough I might be able to try.

 

When I was trying to ding steal at 200 yards, I was using .429 boolits in a rifle with a 30" barrel. They weren't even getting out to 200 yards with full black. People participating asked me what boolits I was using, and I said 'Big Loobs'....got the 'oh' with eye rolls, and was told about them being front heavy and such.......true or not, didn't work for me. Internet research has mixed results, I'm one of the 'didn't work for me crowd'.

[Cemetery]

This discussion on that subject might help:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=36795.0

 

They seem to recommend a well balanced bullet like this: https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/4440-lyman-427098-205gr-fn-pb/

 

This is what I was looking for, couldn't find it. The guy who wrote that, was always writing about the 44.40 and pushing it's limits in long range.

[John Boy]

Cemetery, you might want to read the write up by John Kort who has done more experimentation with the 44WCF bullet than anyone in the US ... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey

Unfortunately, the bullets John tested were cast from Accurate molds that he and David Schultz (Fairshake) developed and are not made by commercial casters for sale of the bullets. I cast the Accurate 43-220C for my Ballard Single Shot at 0.427 diameter - that will also hit the steel at 300 meters with a vernier sight. The 43-220C with the crimp groove is ideal for black and smokeless

[Cemetery]

Cemetery, you might want to read the write up by John Kort who has done more experimentation with the 44WCF bullet than anyone in the US ... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey

 

Thanks for linkage John Boy, I haven't come across this write up before.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Cemetery, what are you using for bullet lube in your BP load?

Are you using 3F granulation in the powder? What BP do you use? Do you fill the case so the bullet will compress the powder 3/32"-1/8", when you seat the bullet?

OLG

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I've used the Big Lube 44 caliber 200 gr. bullets in pistol caliber long range with good results. .430 sized for my Marlin 44-40. Most of these events are around the 100 yard Mark, so not real long range.

 

I've used Goex, Kik and Schuetzen, 2 and 3 f at various times. I have shot some smokeless when they offer separate smokeless and black powder categories. I once won the Winter Range pistol caliber long range using my black powder loads against nearly all smokeless powder shooters. I don't have experience at more than 150 yards with the 44-40. Smokin Gator

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

My experience is this;

44-40 Big Lube bullet .429 Dia.

full case of Goex 3f no over powder card. Compressed about 1/16".

 

Uberti 66 cowboy rifle, banged the 300 yard gong consistently unless it got windy. Marbles peep site and blade front site.

Uberti 73 with 30" barrel same load. Crap, crap crap. The barrel would foul out towards the end. Not enough lube to keep the fouling soft. Fouling built up and bullets went everywhere. And this is after 2 or 3 shots.

 

Our long range side match always includes pistol caliber rifles. 100, 200, and 300 yards used to be the set-up. Now becasue fo time and the number of shooters we set up a small disc at around 65 yards and they shoot off hand!

 

So maybe its the rifle and not the bullet!

Ike

[Cemetery]

Cemetery, what are you using for bullet lube in your BP load?

Are you using 3F granulation in the powder? What BP do you use? Do you fill the case so the bullet will compress the powder 3/32"-1/8", when you seat the bullet?

OLG

 

SPG loob

3F Goex OE blend with a normal primer (maybe magnum might help?).

1/8 compression.

[Cemetery]

So maybe its the rifle and not the bullet!

 

 

Or I'm really bad with off hand shooting, but we all know it's never the shooter..........

 

I plan on trying some of these Big Loobs, and the boolit from Montana Bullet Works.

 

I can see how it can be frustrating with different rifles, I had better luck dingin' steel with my 25.20 using APP and a hard cast boolit with smokeless loob, those misses where much tighter with a light weight saddle ring carbine 1892, than the 24" Uberti '66 with real black and Big Loobs......

 

At the end of the day, I can see how much fun long range can be.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

 

SPG loob

3F Goex OE blend with a normal primer (maybe magnum might help?).

1/8 compression.

Stay with the std primer.

Try DGL.

SPG is great in cold weather. not so much when warm as it 'bleeds'.

OLG

[J-BAR #18287]

Just responding to the "front end heavy" comment:

 

Arrows fly better when heavy on the front. Want to watch an arrow wobble? Put some weight back by the nock.

 

I figure the Big Lube bullet should fly like an arrow as long as it is properly stabilized by rifling.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

I used Big Lube bullets out of a Marlin in 44 mag loaded over full cases of Goex 2F. 4" groups at 100 yards all day long using a Lyman #2 rear sight. These were cast by Springfield Slim.

 

I suggest slugging the bore and sizing appropriately.

[John Boy]

I figure the Big Lube bullet should fly like an arrow as long as it is properly stabilized by rifling.

J-Bar, I thought the same as I bought every Big Lube mold except the Mav Dutchman and the 2 others.

Banging steel at cowboy distances - no issues. Start shooting paper further out especially with the rifle bullets to 600yd max distance - issues. They wouldn't group. I tested several recipes with the 400 & 500gr 45-70 bullets. In fact, I had bullets that wouldn't hit the target frame. So, I now own zero Big Lube molds and have just finished shooting the 250gr ones in my 45's

 

IMO, the molds from before the turn of the century and developed since then are those to be bought. Examples, the 454190 Ideal will group at 200yds - there are many excellent 38 Spl Ideal molds - the Ideal Dr Hudson design 32-40 and 38-55 have set many records at 200 yds offhand and my favorite Ideal 375166 for the 38-55 will knock down the Rams at 500 meters and the 45 caliber Postell - Creedmoor - Paul Matthews and Dan Theodore 'Money Bullet's are proven bullets for accuracy over the long term of decades

[J-BAR #18287]

J-Bar, I thought the same as I bought every Big Lube mold except the Mav Dutchman and the 2 others.

Banging steel at cowboy distances - no issues. Start shooting paper further out especially with the rifle bullets to 600yd max distance - issues. They wouldn't group. I tested several recipes with the 400 & 500gr 45-70 bullets. In fact, I had bullets that wouldn't hit the target frame. So, I now own zero Big Lube molds and have just finished shooting the 250gr ones in my 45's

 

IMO, the molds from before the turn of the century and developed since then are those to be bought. Examples, the 454190 Ideal will group at 200yds - there are many excellent 38 Spl Ideal molds - the Ideal Dr Hudson design 32-40 and 38-55 have set many records at 200 yds offhand and my favorite Ideal 375166 for the 38-55 will knock down the Rams at 500 meters and the 45 caliber Postell - Creedmoor - Paul Matthews and Dan Theodore 'Money Bullet's are proven bullets for accuracy over the long term of decades

 

 

I always appreciate experience over guessing...thanks for the education.

 

The Big Lube bullets are going to have ballistic coefficients that are not much better than a round ball, you can tell that by just looking at them. Longer, slimmer bullets naturally have better BCs, which correlates with long range accuracy. So I would expect to get about the same accuracy from a Big Lube bullet as I would from a properly stabilized round ball, and I would expect accuracy would deteriorate rapidly past 100 yards. I guess I should have qualified my analogy with an arrow to that distance. I certainly would not expect very good accuracy much beyond 100 yards. I admire your courage in attempting to get good groups with a bullet that is essentially a round ball at 600 yards!

[Cemetery]

4" groups at 100 yards all day long using a Lyman #2 rear sight.

 

I was thinking of getting that rear sight, do you still us the factory front sight?

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Same 200gr bullit I always shoot :-)

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

My Henry can shoot the 44-40 Big Lube bullet accurately at 100 yards, but my 66 sure can't, using the same load. I always thought it was because of the stiffer barrel, but I am not a long range shooter by any means so that was just a guess. Plus that large meplat on the Bl bullets has to slow those things down at distance. And John Boy, the "Fairshake" bullet is available at www.whyteleatherworks.com , just have to ask nicely, as they aren't on the website. I use them in my pistols when I know I am going to encounter some stubborn knock-down targets at a SASS match as they are heavier than the 200 grain Big Lube.

[John Boy]

And John Boy, the "Fairshake" bullet is available at www.whyteleatherworks.com , just have to ask nicely, as they aren't on the website.

Thanks Slim

Cemetery, did you read this? It's the 44 WCF bullet you should buy! Mark has an excellent casting reputation

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

" Longer, slimmer bullets naturally have better BCs, which correlates with long range accuracy".

 

Not sure about the comment on a longer, slimmer bullet. Looking at the various 45-70 500+ grain bullets none of them are longer and slimmer. They do bang targets out to 1000 yards!.

Ike

And again, the right bullet and load for each individual rifle is imperative. What works in one probably will not work in another. Like I said my 66, 44-40 with Big Lube bullets and 3f GOEX does a great job at 300 yards if the wind is down. My long barrel 73 not so much with the same load,

Ike

[J-BAR #18287]

" Longer, slimmer bullets naturally have better BCs, which correlates with long range accuracy".

 

Not sure about the comment on a longer, slimmer bullet. Looking at the various 45-70 500+ grain bullets none of them are longer and slimmer. They do bang targets out to 1000 yards!.

Ike

And again, the right bullet and load for each individual rifle is imperative. What works in one probably will not work in another. Like I said my 66, 44-40 with Big Lube bullets and 3f GOEX does a great job at 300 yards if the wind is down. My long barrel 73 not so much with the same load,

Ike

 

 

Come on Ike, you know as well as I do that increased mass helps improve the ballistic coefficient. Expecting a .45 caliber round ball weighing about 200 grains to be as accurate at long ranges as a 500 grain .45 caliber bullet is nonsense.

 

Google BCs:

 

.451 Round Ball has a ballistic coefficient of 0.064

 

a 405 grain bullet in a 45-70 has a BC of 0.281

 

a 129 grain bullet in a 6.5 Creedmore has a BC of 0.485

 

...and long range accuracy would improve in that order.

 

The longer and "skinnier" a projectile is in comparison to its frontal area, the better it will cut through air resistance. It's why rockets are long and skinny instead of spherical.

 

I'm delighted you get good results with your .44-40 at long range. But if you get smaller groups at long range with your .44-40 than your .45-70, something is screwy.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

200 gr. for 100 Yds, and under. 220-240 gr for 200 and beyond.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I use a bullet cast from the RCBS 44-200-FN mold. It weighs in a bit more than 200 grains, closer to 215 grains - with my alloy anyway. For close range CAS shooting, I use a cast 160 grain FN from a modified Lee mold, or Badman Bullet's 165 grainer.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Has anyone used the fairshake bullet from whytes in the rifle for 5-6 stages? I can shoot that many with the mav Dutchman 44 in my Marlin and was checking out getting the fairshake to try out. If they didn't work in the rifle I could use them in the revolvers. Smokin Gator

[John Boy]

Has anyone used the fairshake bullet from whytes in the rifle for 5-6 stages?

 

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=257351&p=3344101

One should be able to determine the lube capacity from the picture of the bullet

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

It looks pretty good. But No, I can't tell how deep the lube grooves are and how much lube it really holds. Smokin Gator

[John Boy]

But No, I can't tell how deep the lube grooves are and how much lube it really holds.

Get your paper - pen and calculator out ... Let us know the answer

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-210B-D.png

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I originally asked if anyone had been able to shoot 5-6 stages out of their rifle with the bullet, not exactly how much lube the bullet holds. Even if it held the exact same amount as the Big Lube bullet, because of the different design it still might not work as well. But thanks. Smokin Gator