McCandless Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 This happened. There is a movable prop storefront for shooter to fire his rifle and pistols and first two shotgun targets through. There is another shooting position out to the right of the prop storefront for another set of shotgun targets. Part of the base of the prop storefront (2x4s) extends into the path of the shooter. All the other shooters have successfully stepped over the prop support. This shooter finishes rifle and pistols and first shotguns in a proper manner. While moving from the first shotgun position to the next, shooter trips over the prop support, He and his shotgun end up in the dirt. Here's this. The shooter takes a face-plant rather than give up control of the shotgun. When he lands in the dirt he has both hands on the gun safely pointed down-range. Although the gun (and shooter) are in the dirt, at no time does he lose control of the gun. Pistols stay safely holstered. Shooter got back up, checks that his barrels are clear and completed the stage. Although some people said, "nice job, but dropped gun." I said "no call". (By the way, that prop was modified and no longer has an obstruction in the shooter's path.) Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 R.O. I, page 20 An open, empty long firearm that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170 safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a ―Prop Failure‖ call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance. As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered as still in their control. No call should be made until the firearm comes to rest – wherever that may be. Then determine the condition of the firearm at rest and whether or not the 170 safety rule was ever broken on its way to its final resting point in order to assess the proper penalty (if any at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Not dropped from my perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 NOT DROPPED...NO PENALTY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 dust him off and send him on his way with no penalty. I had the same thing happen to me, but as I landed I did lose control of my 97. it did stay pointed downrange. In my opinion, my hands had come off of it. I called SDQ on myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted April 27, 2016 Author Share Posted April 27, 2016 I think he had great presence of mind. Safely handled all the way through. It ruined his time, but he got great style points! Nice holsters too, great retention. A lot of pistols would have bounced out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 The stage design that places a tripping hazard in or close to a shooter's path is poor. It creates a situation that an accident is likely to occur. Either modify the storefront prop so there is no tripping hazard or avoid stage designs the have a shooter moving across the hazard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 The stage design that places a tripping hazard in or close to a shooter's path is poor. It creates a situation that an accident is likely to occur. Either modify the storefront prop so there is no tripping hazard or avoid stage designs the have a shooter moving across the hazard. I realize this has already been corrected and also that the shooter did in fact maintain control of his guns but I have another question. I would hazard a guess that even if the shooter did lose control of one or more guns there would be some posse members trying to make it a no call due to prop failure. I would argue against that for two reasons. #1, the prop didn't actually fail, it s was simply a poor design. #2, the shooter knew the prop was there so should have taken the proper precautions to avoid it. Who would be correct in using that scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 This reminds me of an incident that happened probably 10 years ago. Stage was to shoot pistols, then move forward to rifle and shotgun. One of our better senior shooters (were not very many back then) was shooting. Now picture that he was a big man about 6 foot or so and probably 200+ pounds. Shot both pistols, ran forward and stubbed his toe, probably in a small pot hole or something. Did a complete forward role, Pistols stayed in holsters. He came up, took a step to the table. Shot his long guns as required. Really wowed us and tickled/shocked him. Clean stage too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryker77 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 No drop. Ryker77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I realize this has already been corrected and also that the shooter did in fact maintain control of his guns but I have another question. I would hazard a guess that even if the shooter did lose control of one or more guns there would be some posse members trying to make it a no call due to prop failure. I would argue against that for two reasons. #1, the prop didn't actually fail, it s was simply a poor design. #2, the shooter knew the prop was there so should have taken the proper precautions to avoid it. Who would be correct in using that scenario? That can be a tough call and I generally would stand by whatever those on site called. Your case could be expanded. Say a table is a little wobbly. Everyone knows it and all but one shooter makes it through just fine. Towards the end of the match, one shooter puts their gun on the table, it wobbles and the gun falls. Did the prop fail? Did the shooter know about it? In life, we have to make some "judgement calls." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 This reminds me of an incident that happened probably 10 years ago. Stage was to shoot pistols, then move forward to rifle and shotgun. One of our better senior shooters (were not very many back then) was shooting. Now picture that he was a big man about 6 foot or so and probably 200+ pounds. Shot both pistols, ran forward and stubbed his toe, probably in a small pot hole or something. Did a complete forward role, Pistols stayed in holsters. He came up, took a step to the table. Shot his long guns as required. Really wowed us and tickled/shocked him. Clean stage too! OK, about the same time period at our range during the Texas State SASS Championships. Started in the stagecoach, shot rifle, shotgun and first pistol. Come out of stage coach, move to the boot and shoot second pistol. Cowtown Bill shoots first three in stage coach, comes out and heads for the back. as he begins to turn the corner he has hand on left pistol and coming out of holster. His feet slide out from under him and he goes down to his right side. Pops up to his knee like a slide into second base, all the while drawing pistol. As he slides to a stop he has already fired the first shot, continues on as though nothing had happened. He, too, was clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Ken Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Shooter lost control they and the gun dropped to the ground. Anytime a shooter is not in control of themself or surroundings should be a pentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Shooter lost control they and the gun dropped to the ground. Anytime a shooter is not in control of themself or surroundings should be a pentally. TRIPPING OR FALLING In the event a shooter accidentally trips or falls during a course of fire, the Chief Range Officer shall make an assessment of the shooter‘s condition and give a "Cease-Fire" command only if a safety infraction has occurred. Otherwise, the shooter will be allowed to regroup and continue with the course of fire. RO2 p.9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Shooter lost control they and the gun dropped to the ground. Anytime a shooter is not in control of themself or surroundings should be a pentally. Everyone is entitled to an opinion......Current rules state otherwise. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted April 27, 2016 Author Share Posted April 27, 2016 RO2 p.9 Everyone is entitled to an opinion......Current rules state otherwise. Stan Yep, if the shooter has the presence of mind to keep safe control over his guns while falling, and get up, roll up, bounce up, and safely continue...it's a no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Some of us bounce and roll better than others. I just go splat!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Spurs Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 dust him off and send him on his way with no penalty. I had the same thing happen to me, but as I landed I did lose control of my 97. it did stay pointed downrange. In my opinion, my hands had come off of it. I called SDQ on myself. And buy him a cold beer afterwards for controlling his guns. Shooter lost control they and the gun dropped to the ground. Anytime a shooter is not in control of themself or surroundings should be a pentally. But the gun did not drop to the ground. To say that a shooter is not control of themselves is subjective- that is why it was clarified in the rule book. Think about that for a minute.... A shooter cuts the corner of the doorway too close and runs his/her shoulder into the frame- you gonna penalize them? Or slips down on wet grass, or trips on a root. What kind of penalty should they get in those instances??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Shooter lost control they and the gun dropped to the ground. Anytime a shooter is not in control of themself or surroundings should be a pentally. Please don't be one of those people that just make up rules on the range When in doubt, make a note of the issue and reference the rule book. Everybody wins! Sounds like the prop needs a little tweakin' Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny tom Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I would be more concerned about the liability placed on those who set the stage up and the TO who assumes legal responsibility to move the shooter through the stage safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 In the spirit of let's learn from our experiences: RO1, page 4: Don’t be afraid to refuse to allow your posse to shoot an unsafe stage. Insist the stage be made safe before proceeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 No foul don't know about the harm part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Some of us bounce and roll better than others. I just go splat!!! We should start a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singin' Sue 71615 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Not 'dropped' as in 'never left his hands/control'... Did not break the 170% Did not sweep anyone. No call - straight across the board. Glad the prop is now more shooter friendly...but no call on prop failure either. Good word of advice from Boggus Deal...DON'T CROWD YOUR PROPS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Great Job !! Would be My Call ... Followed by are you OK ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Something similar happened to me a couple of years ago at the Nevada State Match. But I just fell (holding the shotgun) to my knees with my chest hitting a table (bending my badge). I shot the shotgun targets firing under and to the side of the table. Got myself up, placed the shotgun safely on the table, then shot my pistols to complete the stage. Every one clapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Doggle Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 "Nice Save!" Applause. "Next shooter." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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