Rootin Tootin Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I have an old 97 (E model) that I want redone as a full race gun. Who is the best at building the fastest 97? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrunner joe #17093 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Three Cut in NC cocoaiii@windstream.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Fastest equals best ejecting/best running. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rootin Tootin Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Thanks Duece and Gunrunner........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I have an old 97 (E model) that I want redone as a full race gun. Who is the best at building the fastest 97? I'm not sure you are asking the right question. As Deuce inferred, what you want is a smooth and reliable 97. The "Fastest" is usually determined by the operator. Also. all 97s were not created equal or worn equally -- for a smith to produce a really nice and reliable match gun, he has to start with a really nice gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Many good gunsmiths are no longer working on 97s as the failure rate is so high with these guns. Shooter spends a lot of money on the work then it fails and blames the gunsmith, so back it comes for more work except unpaid. Those that do usually have a very long wait for the work. That is why many top shooters that use a 97 have several 97s ready to shoot in any match. Many say three is the right number, one main match gun, on back up for matches and one in the gunsmith shop. Others more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Everything about is true. You will have the same amount of $$ invested in 2-3 97's as one nice sxs. If you are a serious sxs shooter, you will have a backup SG that is every bit as expensive as the primary sxs,,, which equates to 4-6 pr [possible 7 97's If you elect the 1897 platform, you will eventually become a 97 mechanic,,, they do malfunction more just because of more parts to break. There are alot of worn out SASS 97's out there, however there are still low mileage 97's hitting the market from estate sales. There has been a recent release by brand new CAP of new-improved Chinese 97's that are very nice. No slicking up needed as I understand. In recent times, stage descriptions and staging has swung in favor toward the sxs. Add to that the better mechanical availability, the sxs is the favorite. The best shooters can run either equally well . I see as much fumbling of reloads with both 97 & sxs, it is a skill to consistantly load either. It still is a four gun shoot and you gotta be good with all four. For the rest of the posse and crowd, shoot and have fun. To many people spend way to many big bucks on gunsmithing that they can not realize the performance of their expenditure. Yes a smooth gun is more fun to shoot, but I am not talking about that level of smithing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40Chev Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Rather than mess with an original - wouldn't you be further ahead time and money wise to get one of the latest imports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Blastmaster, I gotta disagree. I have 4 side by sides for main match duty, (two hammered/two hammerless), none of which have required any work since they were purchased.. And now, because of WB, 3 '97s, (one Chinese two Winchesters). Two of which work, one doesn't. I have as much money invested in just purchasing the 3 '97s than the four side-by-sides. The ONLY reason the Winchester '97 was approved as a "cowboy" shotgun was because the original members of the Wild Bunch had them, and wanted to shoot them. I see more shooters fumblin' shells around the '97 then I do around a side-by-side. And I ain't talkin' about beginner shooters. The one Winchester '97 would be fine for cowboy, but since it won't feed shells outta the mag, it's kinda useless for WB. When is WB gonna approve the Auto 5 anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Actually the 97 gets a bad rap from guns that were worn out in the first place or tinkered into junk. I'm not saying they don't fail just that they will run for a long time if treated well, probably not as long as a double but many of those go down as well. The most likely parts to fail are the left side extractor and the ejector but other parts fail as well. The forearms particularly the three screw forearms. The harder you run them the faster they wear so in my opinion regular lubrication and cleaning is important. I use one 97 for my dryfire exclusively and another for matches, Cowboys and Indians does the smithing, TL is very good and very easy to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Rather than mess with an original - wouldn't you be further ahead time and money wise to get one of the latest imports? I think this is a good suggestion. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rootin Tootin Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Some years ago I bought a 93/97 from Cap and I'm still waiting for it to be approved for cowboy. It's great for WB..... Maybe it's time to consider an IAC instaed of an original 97....... Thanks for all the input...........RT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Since you are close you might try Lonnie at Run-N-Iron in NE. He is the best kept secret in CAS gunsmithing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Some of your fastest 97 shooters build their own, or should I say..... they smith them to suit their needs, etc..... I could be mistaken, but I think DEUCE works on his own 97 (when he uses it) and I think RED KNEE sets his own 97 up for his preferences. Red Knee has won the Oklahoma State speed 97 event, a Regional speed 97 event and just recently, he won the Speed 97 event at Winter Range (National Champion Speed 97 SG). And let me define preferences: some 97 shooters prefer a fast hammer fall and therefore, they might use a stiffer setting on their hammer spring. Others might prefer a nice, super easy working of the slide with minimal resistance in cocking the hammer, and therefore set their hammer spring a little lighter to their preference. Although I think my SG feels great to me, I prefer a stiff hammer spring. I have had others tell me that my hammer spring is set too strong. But I like it strong. As Deuce basically stated, you need good ejection and smooth, RELIABLE running. That will be the fastest for you. I'm not sure we have a 'BEST' smith in SASS for the 97, BUT.....we are blessed with having many GREAT 97 smiths we can trust to work on all SG's. EDIT: I own a few 97's, all of them IAC/Norinco branded. I own 3 of the more recent imports from Coyote Cap. Although some 'tweaking' was done on 2 of them, they are superb 97's and served me faithfully in big matches. If you really like the 97, you would do well to atleast consider getting one for yourself. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlin Buckhorn,SASS 51727 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 RT Fillmore has one of Cap's latest guns. It is really smooth, he loves it. When we see him this spring have him show it to you. Are we going to see you on March 20th or will you be gone on vacation again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rootin Tootin Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 Marlin, I'm back until July when we are going to be out of the country until the 18th.. ....See you the 20th...... ...RT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Blastmaster, I gotta disagree. I have 4 side by sides for main match duty, (two hammered/two hammerless), none of which have required any work since they were purchased.. And now, because of WB, 3 '97s, (one Chinese two Winchesters). Two of which work, one doesn't. I have as much money invested in just purchasing the 3 '97s than the four side-by-sides. The ONLY reason the Winchester '97 was approved as a "cowboy" shotgun was because the original members of the Wild Bunch had them, and wanted to shoot them. I see more shooters fumblin' shells around the '97 then I do around a side-by-side. And I ain't talkin' about beginner shooters. The one Winchester '97 would be fine for cowboy, but since it won't feed shells outta the mag, it's kinda useless for WB. When is WB gonna approve the Auto 5 anyway? I am not a sxs shooter, so take what I say with a grain of salt. When I posted I was thinking 'the best' race-ready, so to speak, SXS and that would be a Browning or SKB that was worked over by some of the best smiths, that reportedly sell for $1200-1500, out the door, or so I am told. As mentioned, I see fumbling of shells for both guns. I've routinely see stuck hulls in sxs and hulls that didn't eject from 97's. Some of the malfunctions are due to ammo. However, the very good shooters don't fumble and they pay close attention to their hulls and number of reloads., they can not be competitive with the other elite if they are having basic reloading issues. Griff, if you are happy with your sxs, then you have done good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadeye Duvall Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Blastmaster, I gotta disagree. I have 4 side by sides for main match duty, (two hammered/two hammerless), none of which have required any work since they were purchased.. And now, because of WB, 3 '97s, (one Chinese two Winchesters). Two of which work, one doesn't. I have as much money invested in just purchasing the 3 '97s than the four side-by-sides. The ONLY reason the Winchester '97 was approved as a "cowboy" shotgun was because the original members of the Wild Bunch had them, and wanted to shoot them. I see more shooters fumblin' shells around the '97 then I do around a side-by-side. And I ain't talkin' about beginner shooters. The one Winchester '97 would be fine for cowboy, but since it won't feed shells outta the mag, it's kinda useless for WB. When is WB gonna approve the Auto 5 anyway? Griff, I have to agree. My daughter & I shoot doubles, mostly because of the simplicity, I watch so many folks struggle with the '97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Many good gunsmiths are no longer working on 97s as the failure rate is so high with these guns. Shooter spends a lot of money on the work then it fails and blames the gunsmith, so back it comes for more work except unpaid. Those that do usually have a very long wait for the work. That is why many top shooters that use a 97 have several 97s ready to shoot in any match. Many say three is the right number, one main match gun, on back up for matches and one in the gunsmith shop. Others more.That's funny. I shoot with some of the best 97 shooters in the country. None of us say anything like this. Buy one that isn't worn out and don't give it to a smith that over works it. But what do I know. Been shooting the same one for 10 years. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 That's funny. I shoot with some of the best 97 shooters in the country. None of us say anything like this. Buy one that isn't worn out and don't give it to a smith that over works it. But what do I know. Been shooting the same one for 10 years. Stan Hey Jawbone, 3 seconds per stage (or less) 5 stages per match average 3 matches a month 12 months a year 10 years EQUALS: your SG has only been used approx 54 minutes since you've had it..... I'll give it another 10-15 years..... If you look at my figures a little different, this basically equates to about 7,200 STROKES during the 10 year span. And just so everyone knows, I agree with Stan. Don't let your SG be 'overworked' by your gunsmith. Don't let him take 5-10 years of life out of it just for the bragging rights of 'The Best and Smoothest'. I have a couple SG's with over 20,000 dryfires in them and they still stand faithful during some hard side match competition. All because the had been PROPERLY tuned/tweaked. ..........NimbleSOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Don't let your SG be 'overworked' by your gunsmith. Don't let him take 5-10 years of life out of it just for the bragging rights of 'The Best and Smoothest'. Best advice on the page. Hands down. Second Best: Buy a repro and make it a race gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo casey #19191 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Hey Griff,About your 97 not feeding from the tube.Take a look at a little screw on the right side of the frame.It mite be holding the plate out enough to keep it from feeding from the tube.I've seen a couple of 97's that the screw was to long.You can look straight down from the top & see the tip of the screw touching the plate... Largo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 That's funny. I shoot with some of the best 97 shooters in the country. None of us say anything like this. Buy one that isn't worn out and don't give it to a smith that over works it. But what do I know. Been shooting the same one for 10 years. Stan Yes, sir. People who grouch about the failure rate of 97s may have merely listened to the urban myths, may have had experience with the $4-500 97s they bought off tables at the local monthlies, or merely want to say: "I have a SXS and it is the best". As said, there are a lot of worn-out 97s in the world and 97s that have been poorly smithed, and some folks are still trying to shoot them in competition. The really good 97s are still around but bring good money. The 97 is a complicated gun and it takes a lot of study and experience to really understand what is going on inside. But, for many reasons, folks try to work on 97s themselves and get frustrated with them when they don't work. My 97 has also been serving me for 10 years. Part of an 97s annual maintenance should include a new left extractor and a new ejector spring -- properly fitted (but, that said, mine has not been changed for 4-5 years ). Yes, 97s break, as do all the guns and gear we use. I once watched a top shooter at Winter Range as he shot an 8-shotgun stage using his SXS as a single shot -- 97s have troubles too, '73s have trouble, Marlins have trouble -- and it is a well know fact that "Guns go to Winter Range to Die" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulshan 20262 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Hey Griff,About your 97 not feeding from the tube.Take a look at a little screw on the right side of the frame.It mite be holding the plate out enough to keep it from feeding from the tube.I've seen a couple of 97's that the screw was to long.You can look straight down from the top & see the tip of the screw touching the plate... Largo If by "the plate" you mean the shell guide, commonly called the flag, that little screw is the shell guide stop. It is not supposed to hold the guide out, it is to stop its downward travel so the carrier will bring it up to do its job when the carrier comes up with the next shell. The pivot point on the guide has a friction spring washer to make it move with the carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 About the 97 not feeding from the tube....did someone take off too much of the sides of the elevator housing or the shell retainers? Or possibly there is rust in the tube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo casey #19191 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 OK OK...I don't know all the terminoligy for 97 parts.I do know that after filing down the little screw that was pushing the GUIDE plate out they would feed just fine from the tube.. Largo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel B Carpenter Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 To answer you question Squibber in Arizona did good work on my WBAS '97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Cap, SASS Life #14184 Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 CAUTION !!!!!! I was alerted to this post by a very concerned 97 shooter, whom asked me to respond with factual description of the problem. You may be a candidate for a blown up 97 !!!! SERIOUSLY !!!! if I understand you correctly, you have filed off the tip of the shell flag screw that was jumping over the bottom of the shell flag and pushing the shell flag outward, not allowing feeding from the mag tube ! Is that a correct discription ? If you have removed metal from that shell flag screw, it may not now be long enough to contact the bottom if the shell flag and force the shell flag up, when closing the action. If that shell flag doesn't come up to block the breech opening as a live round comes up on the carrier, there will be nothing to stop the lighter base of a loaded round from spinning at the top of the (rounded) inside frame. If that loaded round can spin sideways, caused by the shell flag not stopping the spinning, the base of the live round can spin outside the breech and the right extractor will be directly in-line with the primer of that live round. If you slam the action shut, the extractor will puncture the primer and discharge that round outside the frame, causing severe damage and possibly destroying the shotgun. The good side (if there even is a good side to this fiasco), is that the shot charge from the loaded and fired out-of-battery shell, will exit harmlessly down the barrel, the plastic and brass (or metal) base of the cartridge will explode out the side and HOPEFULLY not hurt anyone ! EXCEPT THE GUN ! It will more than likely split the frame at the weakest point, which is the right side of the rear of the frame. The bolt will not exit the frame and hurt you real bad like a Marlin will. This problem was the reason for the banning of all Marlin hammered pump shotguns in SASS. PLEASE TAKE THIS CAUTION SERIOUSLY!! "Coyote Cap" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 CAUTION !!!!!! I was alerted to this post by a very concerned 97 shooter, whom asked me to respond with factual description of the problem. You may be a candidate for a blown up 97 !!!! SERIOUSLY !!!! if I understand you correctly, you have filed off the tip of the shell flag screw that was jumping over the bottom of the shell flag and pushing the shell flag outward, not allowing feeding from the mag tube ! Is that a correct discription ? If you have removed metal from that shell flag screw, it may not now be long enough to contact the bottom if the shell flag and force the shell flag up, when closing the action. If that shell flag doesn't come up to block the breech opening as a live round comes up on the carrier, there will be nothing to stop the lighter base of a loaded round from spinning at the top of the (rounded) inside frame. If that loaded round can spin sideways, caused by the shell flag not stopping the spinning, the base of the live round can spin outside the breech and the right extractor will be directly in-line with the primer of that live round. If you slam the action shut, the extractor will puncture the primer and discharge that round outside the frame, causing severe damage and possibly destroying the shotgun. The good side (if there even is a good side to this fiasco), is that the shot charge from the loaded and fired out-of-battery shell, will exit harmlessly down the barrel, the plastic and brass (or metal) base of the cartridge will explode out the side and HOPEFULLY not hurt anyone ! EXCEPT THE GUN ! It will more than likely split the frame at the weakest point, which is the right side of the rear of the frame. The bolt will not exit the frame and hurt you real bad like a Marlin will. This problem was the reason for the banning of all Marlin hammered pump shotguns in SASS. PLEASE TAKE THIS CAUTION SERIOUSLY!! "Coyote Cap" I've seen a couple blow up because of a malfunctioning flag and it's not fun being anywhere in the neighborhood when it happens. Just ask Notorius or Colorado Big Al, I'm sure either of them will share their experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 CAUTION !!!!!! I was alerted to this post by a very concerned 97 shooter, whom asked me to respond with factual description of the problem. You may be a candidate for a blown up 97 !!!! SERIOUSLY !!!! if I understand you correctly, you have filed off the tip of the shell flag screw that was jumping over the bottom of the shell flag and pushing the shell flag outward, not allowing feeding from the mag tube ! Is that a correct discription ? If you have removed metal from that shell flag screw, it may not now be long enough to contact the bottom if the shell flag and force the shell flag up, when closing the action. If that shell flag doesn't come up to block the breech opening as a live round comes up on the carrier, there will be nothing to stop the lighter base of a loaded round from spinning at the top of the (rounded) inside frame. If that loaded round can spin sideways, caused by the shell flag not stopping the spinning, the base of the live round can spin outside the breech and the right extractor will be directly in-line with the primer of that live round. If you slam the action shut, the extractor will puncture the primer and discharge that round outside the frame, causing severe damage and possibly destroying the shotgun. The good side (if there even is a good side to this fiasco), is that the shot charge from the loaded and fired out-of-battery shell, will exit harmlessly down the barrel, the plastic and brass (or metal) base of the cartridge will explode out the side and HOPEFULLY not hurt anyone ! EXCEPT THE GUN ! It will more than likely split the frame at the weakest point, which is the right side of the rear of the frame. The bolt will not exit the frame and hurt you real bad like a Marlin will. This problem was the reason for the banning of all Marlin hammered pump shotguns in SASS. PLEASE TAKE THIS CAUTION SERIOUSLY!! "Coyote Cap" Tried to PM you with particulars and photos. I don't wanna tie up a thread that's kinda drifted off outta the subject, but would like to have more input... You can PM me with an email address & I'll respond via that avenue. Oh yeah, the gun ain't getting used until it works PROPERLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Hey Griff,About your 97 not feeding from the tube.Take a look at a little screw on the right side of the frame.It mite be holding the plate out enough to keep it from feeding from the tube.I've seen a couple of 97's that the screw was to long.You can look straight down from the top & see the tip of the screw touching the plate... Largo Sure doesn't seem so. If anything is holding the flag out away from the side of the receiver, it's the release buttons for magazine stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outrider, SASS #72622 Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I bought a 1904 takedown that came from Lassiter a few years ago. (Knock on wood) It has run great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 (Knock on wood) It has run great!Good thing you don't have to go out of your way to do that. It's not like it has a sissy modern plastic stock! ETA: says the hypocrite with plastic gunfighter grips on every main match Vaquero...doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Fargo SASS # 1910 Life TG Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Cowboys & Indian store, Jim Bowie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bud #15821 Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 It has been my experience that the fastest '97 is made by Winchester, Remington, Estate, and Fiocchi, depending on what's least expensive. If the sear won't break until the lifter is behind the bolt, the ejector functions properly, and the flag raises reliably, the only other limitation is practice. If the hammer spring is light enough that you can pull the bolt back before the shot has broken, you or your gunsmith is doing it wrong. The "fastest" '97 may be a handicap. A gentleman once handed me a super-slick and tricked out '97 and asked me what I thought. I went from port-arms to firing position and the bolt closed and locked. I thought that I didn't want to have to hold onto the bolt with my thumb while I brought it to my shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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