What is the call- Shooter doesn't fulfill stage description requirements?

[Blastmaster]

Part of the Stage Description calls for the shooter to touch the gold sack at chest level with both hands. At beep, place gold sack on table and shoot. Then take gold sack with you and place on Table B, and finish the shooting sequence.

 

What is the call if during the process, the shooter does not fullfill all stage description of the gold sack handling details. I say a Procedural.

[Captain Bill Burt]

It may not matter, but what did the shooter fail to do?

[Barry Sloe]

P.

 

Barry Sloe

[Most Wanted]

P with info supplied.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

WHEN did the failure occur?

 

Stan

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If shooter was supposed to be in a starting position of "touch the gold sack at chest level with both hands", and the shooter did not get into that starting position, the TO should not have started him.

 

The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location.

 

 

RO I handbook, page 6, article 5F.

 

 

For that, no call. If it was important, TO should have corrected shooter's starting position. Otherwise, let it go.

 

 

For the "on-the-clock handling" of the gold bag, if shooter failed to follow stage instructions about handling (a significant error in handling), then a P is earned. Your inclusion of the word "details" in the OP makes it sound like some nit-picking might be going on - is that what is happening?

 

Good luck, GJ

[Wyatt]

With both hands or in both hands?

[Blastmaster]

I gave three components to the gold sack handling.

 

1) start with gold sack at chest level and both hands touching sack.

 

2)After beep, place sack on Table A.

 

3)Take gold sack with you and place on Table B.

 

Did all three components get completed satisfactory?

 

1)Did the shooter start correctly but jump the gun (hand(s) left sack before the beep)? Yes/No

2)Did the shooter place the gold sack on Table A and not the ground before shooting started? Yes/No

3)Did the shooter take the gold sack an put on Table B and not on the ground before finishing the shooting? Yes/No

[Blastmaster]

With both hands or in both hands?

Part of the Stage Description calls for the shooter to touch the gold sack at chest level with both hands.

[Flying W Ramrod]

If the TO allowed them to start in this position, no call. If the TO said assume the position and the shooter didn't then don't start them. If the shooter demands to start in the defaulted position the following would apply

ROI Page 2

FAILURE TO ENGAGE

A “failure to engage” occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage

instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply because a

competitor “makes a mistake.” A Failure to Engage applies only to non-shooting situations such

as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite or otherwise make an attempt to complete

any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions. In such a case, in

addition to any penalties for misses, a 30-second failure to engage/Spirit of the Game penalty is

assessed.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

 

1)Did the shooter start correctly but jump the gun (hand(s) left sack before the beep)? Yes/No

2)Did the shooter place the gold sack on Table A and not the ground before shooting started? Yes/No

3)Did the shooter take the gold sack an put on Table B and not on the ground before finishing the shooting? Yes/No

 

For 1, when shooter jumps the buzzer, I say CEASE FIRE and restart the shooter. If shooter has already started shooting before I "wake up", I still call a CEASE FIRE. I give shooter another chance to start without jumping buzzer - if it takes reloading, send 'em to unloading table. Don't give them a P until after a couple of tries they don't cooperate with starting on the buzzer.

 

For 2, if answer is NO, then a P (placed bag on ground)

 

For 3, if answer is NO, then a P (placed bag on ground)

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Why not tell us specifically what the questionable action was, and how it was called. I think we got the rules and the theory of applying them figured out!

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

If you forget the bag of gold - P for brain fade. Can't see not starting with the gold in your hands, someone on the posse would notice and make a comment. Even if they forgot to hold the gold, then forgot to take it. Seems simple enough - looks like a P.

 

Seems the default mentality of the wire is to fry someone with the assumption that they were trying to game the system. Most of us will have to admit the occasional (or not so occasional) brain malfunction. I have faith in my fellow man, especially in this game, that their intentions are honorable. Hence, I am always looking for the least harmful penalty that can be applied when one is earned.

 

CR

[Ramblin Gambler]

Maybe he never placed the sack of gold on Table A. He could have just held onto it and switched hands. Or maybe he never picked up the sack till he was ready to move to table B. The description sounds kinda wonky to me. Since it said to start touching the bag and not holding the bag, it makes me think the bag might have been at chest height already, and maybe what he's getting at is that the pard didn't put the bag on Table A after the beep because he didn't pick it up till he was ready to move to Table B.

 

 

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Maybe he never placed the sack of gold on Table A. He could have just held onto it and switched hands. Or maybe he never picked up the sack till he was ready to move to table B. The description sounds kinda wonky to me. Since it said to start touching the bag and not holding the bag, it makes me think the bag might have been at chest height already, and maybe what he's getting at is that the pard didn't put the bag on Table A after the beep because he didn't pick it up till he was ready to move to Table B.

Seems you had to hold the bag at chest level, but they wanted to make sure both hands are on the bag, not just holding it by one hand. Probably not real gold.

 

CR

[Blastmaster]

 

For 1, when shooter jumps the buzzer, I say CEASE FIRE and restart the shooter. If shooter has already started shooting before I "wake up", I still call a CEASE FIRE. I give shooter another chance to start without jumping buzzer - if it takes reloading, send 'em to unloading table. Don't give them a P until after a couple of tries they don't cooperate with starting on the buzzer.

 

Very reasonable approach, but how does that (reshoot when bullet has gone downrange) play into 'the stage starts with the first shot going down range?' & 'we have 2 minutes from beep to beep to herd the World/National Championship shooters through'?

 

For 2, if answer is NO, then a P (placed bag on ground)

Or didn't place sack on table and make it stay?

 

For 3, if answer is NO, then a P (placed bag on ground)

Or didn't place sack on table? vs placing sack inside shirt from the start?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Why not tell us specifically what the questionable action was, and how it was called. I think we got the rules and the theory of applying them figured out!

 

Questionable act was not complying with all three stage descriptions for handling the gold sack. Jumping the gun/beep. One shooter was allowed to continue w/o penalty, another was Penalized, and another got a reshoot.. By different TO's.

hands on sack is just a place holder for where the hands must be so everyone starts the same. Can not hover over pistols and shells as well with sack at chest level, using both hands.

Placing sack on each table before shooting takes away the dropping of the sack down the shirt at the start ( you can be creative and drop the sack down your shirt, but then you must pull it out before reaching the next table), plus,

placing the sack on top makes the shooter be more careful, rather than tossing the sack carelessly toward Table B.

 

So is a violation of Step1 less than a violation of Step 2 & 3?

[Most Wanted]

IF (big word ) you are referring to the pre beep stance as step one then no. The TO should not start them until they are in the correct posistion. If someone jumps the start I've never seen anything other than a restart. As for any necessary movements with the bag after the beep if they are not done properly that would be a P.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

 

Questionable act was not complying with all three stage descriptions for handling the gold sack. Jumping the gun/beep. One shooter was allowed to continue w/o penalty, another was Penalized, and another got a reshoot.. By different TO's.

 

Then you have a match director and TO problem. It should be up to MD to correct problems with not awarding same penalty for a violation, when one is deserved. If the MD won't try to improve the situation, you can escalate within the club. Airing it here probably won't get anyone there to do it better.

 

But a faulted starting position, in the rule book I go by, is one the TO should never let a shooter start from. In this case, no shooter should have gotten a P for a faulted start position or been allowed to shoot all through the stage then get a reshoot.

 

But, this one's history. Try to improve the situation so that the future is more to your sense of fairness. I think is a common problem caused by TOs not staying in touch with the rules, the clubs not discussing some of these tough calls and telling everyone what the rule book says to do for a penalty, and getting everyone all on the same page. I use club Safety Briefings sometimes to cover topics where there are vastly different ways TOs try to award the wrong penalties.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Matthew Duncan]

I see one possibility that hasn't been mentioned. Shooter took the bag if gold and RAN AWAY WITH IT! Gold is what, $2,000 an ounce and a bag full might have been to great a temptation fir the Shooter to resist. If that was what happen then a "P" and a wanted poster is in order.

[Blastmaster]

Not a SASS problem

 

Maybe a MD problem if he knows about it, but usually not the case until after the shoot when he hears about it.

 

 

 

Is a TO problem. The bigger the match the more TO's are involved. Just imagine the varience with 45 posses and each posse has a handful of TO's?

 

could be a problem at every club. Not so much with matches that have only one posse.

 

 

 

As you witnessed here, there were several thoughts. Some made the call, some didn't give complete opinions, some couldn't stay on topic. A fair example of how calls are made on the line by TO's. At a match, TO has to act immediately or give awards/penalties to score keeper within a minute or so after the stage is complete.

 

Happy Trails.

[Blastmaster]

I see one possibility that hasn't been mentioned. Shooter took the bag if gold and RAN AWAY WITH IT! Gold is what, $2,000 an ounce and a bag full might have been to great a temptation fir the Shooter to resist. If that was what happen then a "P" and a wanted poster is in order.

Don't forget a MDQ for leaving the firing line with loaded guns or at least a SDQ for not going to the ULT . No trinket either at the awards. Of course, that would be the least of his worries.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

I see one possibility that hasn't been mentioned. Shooter took the bag if gold and RAN AWAY WITH IT! Gold is what, $2,000 an ounce and a bag full might have been to great a temptation fir the Shooter to resist. If that was what happen then a "P" and a wanted poster is in order.

More like $1,200 an ounce.

[Grizzly Dave]

The nature of the game in this day and age is that things like that are not commonplace at many if not most clubs around the country or world for that matter.

 

While the trend is towards an economy of words in stage instructions, in cases like this, especially in multi posse and / or annual or above matches that are likely to draw shooters from outside the clubs regulars, it is imperative to be specific in what is expected, and the associated penalties for failing to comply with the instructions so that all shooters on all posses have the same enforcement.

[Most Wanted]

A perfect example is how poorly the question was asked. Tell us stage instructions then tell us what happened. This is not that complicated but nether is running a stage.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Winter Range this year was REALLY trying to crack down on reshoots slowing down the flow. I think they mostly succeeded - posses moved through on schedule pretty well. They did get most of the posse marshals told: no reshoots without permission from Match Directors.

 

Now, I know for a fact that info did not get passed to the four or five of us who were TO'ing on either my WB or Cowboy posses.

 

Just an example of: If you have to tell more than 3 people something different to do, and you expect them to pass information on correctly and reliably, you HAVE to write it down. Best is right on a page in the Shooters Book. And request that each Marshal read that at the beginning of each day.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Blastmaster]

Winter Range this year was REALLY trying to crack down on reshoots slowing down the flow. I think they mostly succeeded - posses moved through on schedule pretty well. They did get most of the posse marshals told: no reshoots without permission from Match Directors.

 

Now, I know for a fact that info did not get passed to the four or five of us who were TO'ing on either my WB or Cowboy posses.

 

Just an example of: If you have to tell more than 3 people something different to do, and you expect them to pass information on correctly and reliably, you HAVE to write it down. Best is right on a page in the Shooters Book. And request that each Marshal read that at the beginning of each day.

 

Good luck, GJ

Thanks for sharing. This could make a whole Dr Phil show by itself. I will leave it at that.

 

 

 

While the trend is towards an economy of words in stage instructions, in cases like this, especially in multi posse and / or annual or above matches that are likely to draw shooters from outside the clubs regulars, it is imperative to be specific in what is expected, and the associated penalties for failing to comply with the instructions so that all shooters on all posses have the same enforcement.

Spot on!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Maybe I missed something, exactly what did the shooter do that calls into question whether he followed stage instructions? Without this info folks are just guessing. In the end, did the shooter get an advantage by not following the letter of the stage instructions or not?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

You all are wasting your time and brain cells. Until the poster tells us the stage instructions and what the shooter actually did it's all speculation.

What if

Could be

May be

Ike

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

If he failed to follow instructions as what to do before the "beep" no call. If the failure was after the "beep" a procedural should be assesed.

 

Blackfoot

[Blastmaster]

If he failed to follow instructions as what to do before the "beep" no call. If the failure was after the "beep" a procedural should be assesed.

 

Blackfoot

No, I don't think it would be a no call.

 

Failure (hand(s) off gold sack) happened immediately(very noticeable) before-during-and-after the sound of the beep. That is what jumping the timer is. Still no penalty but should draw a restart.

 

I believe Garrison Joe had the correct solution... Cease fire and start over... Unless you are directed to not give reshoots.. Hmmmm

 

We all seemed to agree that if the gold sack was not placed on or carried to the appropriate tables as per stage description, then a Procedural.

 

Some people had difficulty comprehending a description with minimal, but sufficient wording...to be expected and a demonstration of why more wording helps.

 

Some asked some good clarification/qualifying questions before giving their opinion. Also good. They would probably ask clarification questions for regular stage descriptions before they engaged the stage.

 

Happy Trails

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

No, I don't think it would be a no call.

 

Failure (hand(s) off gold sack) happened immediately(very noticeable) before-during-and-after the sound of the beep. That is what jumping the timer is. Still no penalty but should draw a restart.

 

I believe Garrison Joe had the correct solution... Cease fire and start over... Unless you are directed to not give reshoots.. Hmmmm

FWIW - Having worked as a Range Master for a few major matches on occasion, I can tell you that CROs and/or PMs are NOT "directed to not give reshoots"...

They may be told that any reshoots given must be justified under the rules and signed off by a match official so as to prevent granting UNjustified reshoots (e.g. "buddy posses") or misapplication of the rules for granting same.

 

We all seemed to agree that if the gold sack was not placed on or carried to the appropriate tables as per stage description, then a Procedural.

 

Some people had difficulty comprehending a description with minimal, but sufficient wording...to be expected and a demonstration of why more wording helps.

 

Some asked some good clarification/qualifying questions before giving their opinion. Also good. They would probably ask clarification questions for regular stage descriptions before they engaged the stage.

 

Happy Trails

[Flying W Ramrod]

No we don't all agree regarding the penalty

ROI Page 31 "Procedural – an unintentional action where the competitor does not follow the Stage

instructions, can include actions/omissions other than firing a round e.g. failure to adhere to

category requirements."

 

ROI Page 30 "Failure to engage – willfully or intentionally disregarding the stage instructions in order to

obtain a competitive advantage and is not simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.”

Applies only to non-shooting situations such as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of

dynamite or otherwise make an attempt to complete any other non-shooting procedure written

within the stage instructions."

 

Where did the "unintentional action" take place? Sounds more like "willfully or intentionally disregarding".

 

 

ROI Page 6 "F) The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location. It is not

considered a faulted position or location for allowing a shooter to start without appropriately

loaded guns or available ammunition on their person."

 

The questions should be:

Why did the TO allow the shooter to start in a defaulted position?

Why, if noticing the defaulted position, didn't the TO stop the shooter and restart in a non-defaulted position?

 

 

 

[Charlie Whiskers]

Several years ago at our State shoot we went with a Stage Marshall for each stage. That person stays there and reads and explains that stage to every posse coming through. Each stage is explained to the Stage Marshall pre-shoot by the person or person's that wrote them and any questions, if there are any the SM may have, are explained then.There's no individual interpretation of the stage instructions by any Posse Marshall by doing that. Any questions are answered by the Stage Marshall. Since we started doing that 99% of the P's are due to brain fade by the shooter. I know that for a fact because I wrote one of the stages and got a P on it.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Several years ago at our State shoot we went with a Stage Marshall for each stage. That person stays there and reads and explains that stage to every posse coming through. Each stage is explained to the Stage Marshall pre-shoot by the person or person's that wrote them and any questions, if there are any the SM may have, are explained then.There's no individual interpretation of the stage instructions by any Posse Marshall by doing that. Any questions are answered by the Stage Marshall. Since we started doing that 99% of the P's are due to brain fade by the shooter. I know that for a fact because I wrote one of the stages and got a P on it.

Experience with berm marshals in other locations made their use virtually obsolete. In some cases these "gods" took over total control of the stages from the posse marshal and others on the stage to the point most shooters wanted them banished. I personally saw a berm marshal at a regional shoot insist on running the timer for every shooter in the match. When challenged the match director stood by his berm marshal. I saw berm marshals over ride spotters on hits and misses, ie call misses not seen by any other range official. I saw berm marshals impose other penalties on shooters not called by any stage official other than themselves. Another issue with berm marshals, is that they need to shoot the match at a different day than everyone else. I have seen the weather for these earlier days to be far better than the actual match (ie clear versus pouring down rain). Shooters in their categories were very upset about that situation.

[Most Wanted]

Anybody that's going to complain that one shooter had better weather than them hasn't shot enough. I've been on both sides of that and it bothers me more if I'm the one with the good weather. If I beat someone I want it as equal as possible. But that's not reality. But for other reasons not as bad as GCK said I don't think berm marshalls work.

[Charlie Whiskers]

Experience with berm marshals in other locations made their use virtually obsolete. In some cases these "gods" took over total control of the stages from the posse marshal and others on the stage to the point most shooters wanted them banished. I personally saw a berm marshal at a regional shoot insist on running the timer for every shooter in the match. When challenged the match director stood by his berm marshal. I saw berm marshals over ride spotters on hits and misses, ie call misses not seen by any other range official. I saw berm marshals impose other penalties on shooters not called by any stage official other than themselves. Another issue with berm marshals, is that they need to shoot the match at a different day than everyone else. I have seen the weather for these earlier days to be far better than the actual match (ie clear versus pouring down rain). Shooters in their categories were very upset about that situation.

 

We made it clear once the stage is read and questions asked the SM which is what we call them, leaves the stage in charge of the PM and TO's. He or she can watch but not interfere unless during the shooting a question arises. Then they answer what ever the question may be and goes and sits down. Their sole job is reading the stage, not running it. So far it's worked out very well.