Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Nine-year old girl allowed to fire a full-automatic Uzi and kills her instructor. Much like the 7-year old who died a couple years back in a similar situation. http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2014/08/26/us/26reuters-usa-shooting-arizona.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=WireFeed&module=pocket-region®ion=pocket-region&WT.nav=pocket-region Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Nine-year old girl allowed to fire a full-automatic Uzi and kills her instructor. Much like the 7-year old who died a couple years back in a similar situation. http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2014/08/26/us/26reuters-usa-shooting-arizona.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=WireFeed&module=pocket-region®ion=pocket-region&WT.nav=pocket-region Instructor's fault. He / she is there to not only teach but to control the gun under all circumstances. The little girl is the major victim here: she'll live with that for the rest of her life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Sadly accidents happen and though this may have been preventable it simply happened and is a tragedy. Prayers up for all involved. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Preventable, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Sad and just plain stupid I will be praying for the little girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Tragically this will probably affect her for life. Prays for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Instructor's fault. He / she is there to not only teach but to control the gun under all circumstances. The little girl is the major victim here: she'll live with that for the rest of her life. + 1 Instructor at fault here. Too bad for his family and the little girl and her family. Tragic but totally preventable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugs Bonney SASS # 10171 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Forty Rod has it. I was an instructor for years. I taught dozens of kids to shoot without an injury. I could list all the stupid things this guy did but I'm sure you already know them. There is NO justification in my mind for having a first time 9 year old go anything but single load single shot. In fact In eight week courses (shooting once a week) the kids I instructed never did do anything but single load single shot. I was teaching them firearms safety and marksmanship not street survival and self defence. But then I'm old and don't go tactical with children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Tragic accident that sets of the anti's and will affect this little girl for the rest of her life, even with counciling! It shouldn't have had to happen. I have no objection to someone owning a full auto firearm...BUT, "spray and pray" is NOT the way to teach a youngster to shoot. Kids need to be taught SAFETY and accuracy. Speed and full auto can come MUCH LATER. (My neck hurts from shaking my head!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Anybody that let's a nine year shoot a fully automatic weapon is an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 a responsible instructor wouldn't have taken on a 9YO client in this situation, even if parents permission. the 'parents' shouldn't have even thought about letting their daughter attempt to handle a full auto which recoil was way to much for her age and strength. sad situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 Anybody that let's a nine year shoot a fully automatic weapon is an idiot. Agreed. There is video of this on the news accounts now. The instructor tells the girl about stance, etc., then has her shoot one shot. He then reaches down and switches the Uzi to automatic. He's leaning over her from the left. The video as released ends there, but it's really just unbelievable...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 The instructor made a terrible mistake and the parent(s) made one as well. My heart goes out to the girl. The antis, of course, will immediately decide that the girl is blameless and therefore the gun must be at fault. If the incident had been an instructor turning over the wheel of a NASCAR car to a nine year old, with her parents permission, the only difference would be that the girl would be dead as well and the car would be blameless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poet Jones 99980 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 What's next? Allow a 5 year old to fire a LAW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 This is too tragic and dumb. I've no further comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco Louie Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Second time this has happened. This time a 9 year old with a mini-Uzi , in 2008 an 8 year old killed himself trying to control a microUzi in Massachusetts. Both of those subguns are very light weight coupled with extremely high rate of fire- double that of a typical submachine gun I have a small pile of full autos, including a M11 that burns .380 at 1500+ rpm. I don't let anybody shoot it but me, way too fast unless you have experience. First time adults shoot something heavy and slow like a Swedish K 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I know some adults I wouldn't even let handle a full auto...much less a 9 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw Mike Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Agree with all - this was tragic, and avoidable. My prayers are for the little girl that will now live with this the rest of her life. What a burden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I have shot a Uzi, on full auto several times; I am a big man and it requires some strength to control. This is simply one of the most tragic and stupid (especially for the girl) things I have ever seen in a fire arms fiasco! What in the hell were the parents thinking? I love to teach kids to shoot, but she should have had a single shot .22 Sad for so many reasons. Hoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 The antis, of course, will immediately decide that the girl is blameless and therefore the gun must be at fault. The girl is blameless. Could there be any other conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 The instructor made a terrible mistake and the parent(s) made one as well. My heart goes out to the girl. The antis, of course, will immediately decide that the girl is blameless and therefore the gun must be at fault. If the incident had been an instructor turning over the wheel of a NASCAR car to a nine year old, with her parents permission, the only difference would be that the girl would be dead as well and the car would be blameless. The girl is blameless. 9 year olds aren't competent to make such decisons-the instructor and the parents are the ones at fault, though all are sufficiently punished in this instance, The press again misleads with cyclical rate being used as rate of fire. An Uzi can fire a magazine in under 2 seconds, but it can't fire 1700 rounds a minute not without about 45 magazine changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Jeez, I hope this news story is printed on a big poster and winds up on the wall of every range that offers that "service". This is the 2nd time this stupidity has happened right? We need to learn faster than we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 To those saying "No 9 year old should fire full auto!" I offer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4B77PkeaU www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4B77PkeaU Yes, she is 13 in the video, but I believe she started 4 or 5 years before that. If you watch videos of events like Knob Creek you will see children safely using full auto. The instructor screwed up. He could have progressed to a magazine with 2 or 3 rounds to see if she could control it. Do a few of those. Then maybe to 5 rounds. See if she could control that. But to have her fire one or two as single shots and then go to full auto for a magazine was irresponsible. I have a feeling that since it was a commercial range, and time is money after all, the instructor was pushing the pace to get it over with and move on to the next patron. No proof of that, just a gut feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 The blame lies with the instructor and the parents. The innocent child has been severly traumatized needlessly. Accidents don't just happen. Especially with firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 As a former instructor I can tell you I would never put an Uzi in the hands of a 9 year old who had little or no firearms experience. It would take a considerable amount of range time and a detailed evaluation of his/her skills before advancing to a full auto firearm. And it would not be an Uzi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw Mike Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 To those saying "No 9 year old should fire full auto!" I offer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4B77PkeaU www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd4B77PkeaU Yes, she is 13 in the video, but I believe she started 4 or 5 years before that. If you watch videos of events like Knob Creek you will see children safely using full auto. The instructor screwed up. He could have progressed to a magazine with 2 or 3 rounds to see if she could control it. Do a few of those. Then maybe to 5 rounds. See if she could control that. But to have her fire one or two as single shots and then go to full auto for a magazine was irresponsible. I have a feeling that since it was a commercial range, and time is money after all, the instructor was pushing the pace to get it over with and move on to the next patron. No proof of that, just a gut feeling. Putting a full auto in any child's hands is still irresponsible, IMHO. They cannot possibly comprehend the risks, or safely control it in a worst case malfunction (like the gun becoming stuck firing in full auto with a jammed firing pin or worn disconnector, which would require controlling the weapon while ejecting the magazine). To be honest I wouldn't put a full auto into the hands of most shooters I see at the firing ranges, not without substantial training. Giving kids fully automatic weapons is much like drunk driving; usually nobody gets hurt, right? But when they finally do it's not pretty, at all. I think it's a safer practice to have them shoot single shots, then revolvers, then SA with 1-3 bullets maximum, until they demonstrate proficiency. The thing that will absolutely sink us as shooters is acting irresponsibly. We do that and we've done more damage than legions of anti-2nd lobbyists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Putting a full auto in any child's hands is still irresponsible, IMHO. They cannot possibly comprehend the risks, or safely control it in a worst case malfunction (like the gun becoming stuck firing in full auto with a jammed firing pin or worn disconnector, which would require controlling the weapon while ejecting the magazine). To be honest I wouldn't put a full auto into the hands of most shooters I see at the firing ranges, not without substantial training. Giving kids fully automatic weapons is much like drunk driving; usually nobody gets hurt, right? But when they finally do it's not pretty, at all. I think it's a safer practice to have them shoot single shots, then revolvers, then SA with 1-3 bullets maximum, until they demonstrate proficiency. The thing that will absolutely sink us as shooters is acting irresponsibly. We do that and we've done more damage than legions of anti-2nd lobbyists. I've seen a lot of people at the range that I don't care to see with ANY firearm. I've seen some with semi-auto pistols drilling holes in the air by being unable to control it and inadvertently bump firing. I agree that there should be a progression to slowly increase their skill levels. But that goes for adults, too. It would have to be a case by case judgment call. I've only shot full auto a few times, and that with an MP-5, so I have no idea of how an UZI on full auto feels (only shot a semi-auto UZI a few times, too). But, as I wrote, The instructor screwed up. He could have progressed to a magazine with 2 or 3 rounds to see if she could control it. Do a few of those. Then maybe to 5 rounds. See if she could control that. But to have her fire one or two as single shots and then go to full auto for a magazine was irresponsible. I'm not saying it's a good idea, or that all children are capable of it, just that the reaction of "No kid should be allowed to fire full auto" is, in my opinion, wrong. Case by case and with LOTS of supervision. Don't just put it in their hands and have them hold down the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlaw Mike Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 But, as I wrote, I'm not saying it's a good idea, or that all children are capable of it, just that the reaction of "No kid should be allowed to fire full auto" is, in my opinion, wrong. Case by case and with LOTS of supervision. Don't just put it in their hands and have them hold down the trigger. Thanks for a thorough answer. You didn't respond to one statement however, the problem with children not being equipped to deal with malfunctions that cause out of control full auto fire. That's a pretty big hole. I am not saying adults are either - but they're certainly more capable of controlling the weapon under such an event. I stand by the charge: Giving kids a full auto weapon is much like drunk driving; most of the time nothing bad happens, but when it does, it ain't purty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thanks for a thorough answer. You didn't respond to one statement however, the problem with children not being equipped to deal with malfunctions that cause out of control full auto fire. That's a pretty big hole. I am not saying adults are either - but they're certainly more capable of controlling the weapon under such an event. I stand by the charge: Giving kids a full auto weapon is much like drunk driving; most of the time nothing bad happens, but when it does, it ain't purty. I thought the "lots of supervision" would cover that. Someone right there to grab the gun or the hands holding the gun. And, as you point out, you could apply the same thing to adults. See my comments above about drilling holes in the air with a semi-auto pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Thanks for a thorough answer. You didn't respond to one statement however, the problem with children not being equipped to deal with malfunctions that cause out of control full auto fire. That's a pretty big hole. I am not saying adults are either - but they're certainly more capable of controlling the weapon under such an event. I stand by the charge: Giving kids a full auto weapon is much like drunk driving; most of the time nothing bad happens, but when it does, it ain't purty. If for some reason, a kid was shooting a full auto gun. It should Never have a fully loaded mag. Never. 3-4 rounds max. I would prefer giving them an empty automatic weapon and they could make pew pew pew sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Sadly, this is a real tragedy for all concerned. It also brings to mind, pictures of adults shooting AK 47s, in full auto, into the air. There is no place for stupidity around firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I've seen a lot of people at the range that I don't care to see with ANY firearm. I've seen some with semi-auto pistols drilling holes in the air by being unable to control it and inadvertently bump firing. I agree that there should be a progression to slowly increase their skill levels. But that goes for adults, too. It would have to be a case by case judgment call. I've only shot full auto a few times, and that with an MP-5, so I have no idea of how an UZI on full auto feels (only shot a semi-auto UZI a few times, too). But, as I wrote, I'm not saying it's a good idea, or that all children are capable of it, just that the reaction of "No kid should be allowed to fire full auto" is, in my opinion, wrong. Case by case and with LOTS of supervision. Don't just put it in their hands and have them hold down the trigger. Same old BS argument used by a lot of people for a lot of things. One person MIGHT be able to do something therefore there should be no standards. YOUNG CHILDREN should not be playing with full auto firearms. PERIOD. The videos of a seven year old shooting full autos makes the gun community look like idiots because one irresponsible adult let them do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 The girl is blameless. Could there be any other conclusion? Of course the girl is blameless. In my post I took that as a fact and stated what the conclusion would be based on that fact. "the gun must be the guilty party" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawhorse Kid Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 What the hell was a 9 year old doing with an uzi is beyond me. Most adults would have a time trying to control one......a kid ain't goin to have a chance. This should have never happened. I am all for teaching a kid to use and handle firearms...but use some sense. I can just hear the safetycrats sharpening their axes and pitchforks right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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