John Henry Quick Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I am a black powder shooter. I love the smell and I love the mess. Maybe I'm a graying 12 year old, but there it is. I tried Clean Shot maybe 14 or 15 years ago and while it did what it was supposed to in my cap gun and cleanup was beyond easy, it was useless in my flintlocks and it never smelled like real gunpowder. Flash forward 15 years and now I'm into cartridge shooting with black powder and I did a favor for a friend who was hard up for Trail Boss by trading some for a can of Triple Seven. It's been sitting around unused until last night when I loaded up a batch of ammo for a shoot tomorrow because I know I'm not going to have the time for a proper cleanup and I thought I might finally give this stuff a try. I've read many times that 777 is 10% hotter than real gunpowder and I'm not shooting Rugers, so I decided to make reduced loads. To honor The Wire's rule about specific loads, I'll keep it vague by saying that my loads were about 2/3 full with a 1/3 filler of grits. However, I was cruising the Hodgdon site this morning and I ran across a warning not to use fillers like grits, corn meal, etc. Durn it! As many years as I've been reloading, I should have had the sense to check the website BEFORE loading, but I stupidly assumed that a gunpowder substitute could be loaded like real gunpowder. Do any of you know why this is? Would they be safe if I saved them for my Redhawk? Should I just pull the bullets and chalk it up to stupidity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 YUP-They mean NO. Bulged chambers is why-- LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 YUP-They mean NO. Bulged chambers is why-- LG Thanks - that's what I figured. I guess I'll just pull the bullets and shed a tear for the time I wasted, not only loading them, but disassembling them as well. I would just toss them, but I'd always worry that someone might find them at the dump and try to use them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I've shot 777 at major matches for about 2 years and I use a little filler (not 2/3 1/3 but just a little). I use old tumbler media since it was going to be fertilizer anyway. I know several people that use a little bit of filler in their 777 loads with no problem. I did shoot .38sp with each case full of 777 at one match and it was a pretty stout recoil....just glad I was shooting my Rugers that day. My hands were pretty sore after that match. Of course YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullett Sass 19707 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 You cant leave the filler in very long it soaks up the oils in the powder and will increase the pressures greatly as time goes by. Bullett 19707 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Howdy The way I heard it, fillers can absorb moisture over time, and that can cause them to expand and increase pressure. For what it's worth, when I first started shooting Black Powder in cartridges I was using corn meal for filler. Never had a problem. Of course, I did not let them hang around a long time. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you shoot them off soon after loading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 That's the reason I switched from grits to old tumbler media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe West Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I've used 777 since available, full case in .38 spl & 44-40 no problems. No way to know how fast or how much of it's make up is altered with a filler so I'd pull them too. I've shot old pyrodex powder cartridges with filler and no issues. With C&B I've noticed chambers loaded the day before with a wonder wad over the 777 that the shot is weaker than freshly loaded. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 John Henry - yep ring around chamber or the dreaded bulged bore because like smokeless powders Pyrodex and Triple Seven have a different pressure curve not like black powder. With fillers in Pyrodex & Triple Seven comprised of sodium benzoate, dicyandiamide, potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate the pressure curve will create an irregular increased spike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Would there be the same problem using a card wad as filler? How about a fiber wad - like felt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Would there be the same problem using a card wad as filler? How about a fiber wad - like felt? Per Hodgdon Cowboy reloading manual : A single card wad of approximately .030 may be used between the base of the bullet and the powder charge. No other wads or fillers should be used in Triple Seven loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog McGee Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 JHQ, Just go back to the old standard : Black Powder ! You can use fillers if you want ! Can't go wrong with BP ! AND it has FLAME ! Hoo YA!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Per Hodgdon Cowboy reloading manual : A single card wad of approximately .030 may be used between the base of the bullet and the powder charge. No other wads or fillers should be used in Triple Seven loads. .030 would be of nearly no use as a filler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I know some people who use Circle Fly wads as fillers....you can cut them to the length that you want. You can find them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I use app or American pioneer powder for my black sub. What a dream it is to use and shoot. No sulphur smell that I've noticed. Cleans well with windex and water. Not very corrosive I for to clean gun for a month and there was no rust at all, just soften everything back up and clean as normal. I use it in my old armies as a reduced load I have a cylinder charging ram and drop xx amount of fff and set the ball on top and ram it home seating fully. Never had any problems no hang fires, no flash overs or chain fires. If the cap goes pop the cylinder go boom. In my shot shells on a MEC I use a bushing that gives me the desired load for the wad I'm using just like smokeless, then drop the wad, add shot and crimp. Works great. In my pistol loads CAS rifle also I drop what charge I want in the case using the Dillon 550 setup it's usually between half and two thirds a case no where near a full case, we don't need them in this sport. Seat the bullet, lee factory crimp and box them. For my bp rifle loads 38-55 for plainsman I usually load about two thirds a case or less seat the bullet on the ribs rock checker and box them. As you noticed I very well could have been loading a smokeless powder in everything except the old armies. I spoke with the rep from the makers of app and was told with it it was better not to compress it and to leave room for air in the cases. It was not prone to flashover like real black and most subs. I just get a good load and loaded it without the recommended filler. If I get good result I keep it if it's no shooting well I increase the load marginally and try it again, if that doesn't help I reduce the starting load and see if its better than the increased loads was if not I add to the previous increased load. Never took more than a couple tests to find the sweet spot which is large with bp and subs compared to some smokeless powders. I liked it so much I got in to the habit of buing it by the case at EOT. Still have 3/4 case of ff and a half a case of fff iirc. Haven't been shooting black lately caps and ball became hard to find in bulk and you go through roughly two boxes for a warmup and match. Plus you spend most of the time between shooting a stage charging the revolvers, no bp cartridge isn't any more work than smokeless but frontiersman take heart and dedication to shoot every match. I would pull the bullets trash the powder/filler blob and reload without filler using either the sub you have or aap if you can get it. Of the two types of pullers I have the dead blow hammer type but several times wished I had the type that you attach to you loader and put the round in the shell holder raise the round tighten the puller and then lower the press pulling the bullet out of the case time wise both probably take the same but the later meadthod is easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yusta - a wad at the base of the bullet is not filler. It protects the bullet base during the gas explosion of Triple Seven. There are 3 principles when shooting bullets:for accurate groups * a sharp base that is not gas stripped of lead * the bullet is presented directly to the bore axis * the bullet diameter is sufficient so that it obturates in the groove of the barrel Again, fillers in Triple Seven creates an abnormal spiked pressure curve when the gases explode. Black powder gases do not explode - it deflagurates and the pressure curve is much different than Triple Seven. And any BPCR shooter worth a pound of salt will use a wad at the bullet base to protect the base also And you'll probably ask - why no wad shooting smokeless? One should shoot bullets with an alloy hardness that in accordance with the pressure of the load to preclude deforming the bullet base. The alloy formula is BHN times 1,422 = "Minimum" Chamber Pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 That's the reason I switched from grits to old tumbler media. Now there is a good idea. I never thought of that. I got a whole bucket of corn cob media thats now going to find a new home in some cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 JHQ, Just go back to the old standard : Black Powder ! You can use fillers if you want ! Can't go wrong with BP ! AND it has FLAME ! Hoo YA!!!!!!!!!!! Mad Dog, I agree most wholeheartedly! I'm going to give that stuff back to my buddy and forget about it. I don't even know what made me even consider using the fake stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 To all of you, I thank you! I tried pulling the bullets with my handy-dandy Lyman bullet puller, but they wouldn't come out! I guess when I say heavy crimp, I really mean heavy crimp because I was whacking the snot out of them, but the bullets wouldn't budge! I thought about getting one of those fancy collet style pullers, but they all say that they are for jacketed bullets only. I suppose I'll probably just drop them in the middle of the Potomac so no one can ever find them and try to use them - there's only 50 of them and I'm not hard up for components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 To all of you, I thank you! I tried pulling the bullets with my handy-dandy Lyman bullet puller, but they wouldn't come out! I guess when I say heavy crimp, I really mean heavy crimp because I was whacking the snot out of them, but the bullets wouldn't budge! I thought about getting one of those fancy collet style pullers, but they all say that they are for jacketed bullets only. I suppose I'll probably just drop them in the middle of the Potomac so no one can ever find them and try to use them - there's only 50 of them and I'm not hard up for components. With a kinetic bullet puller it sometime works better to strike it on a block of lead or other very hard, somewhat immovable surface. This worked much better for me than striking on wood or any table. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 With a kinetic bullet puller it sometime works better to strike it on a block of lead or other very hard, somewhat immovable surface. This worked much better for me than striking on wood or any table. YMMV I was whacking them on my driveway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I was whacking them on my driveway! Wow! That's some crimp ! :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 No problem, Gunny. I have a bottle of Goex with your name on it. BTW, I used 777 today in my (working) C&B pistol, same volume as the Swiss stuff you got me, no problems with it. In fact, almost no soot in the barrel or cylinder, and just as much smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 No problem, Gunny. I have a bottle of Goex with your name on it. BTW, I used 777 today in my (working) C&B pistol, same volume as the Swiss stuff you got me, no problems with it. In fact, almost no soot in the barrel or cylinder, and just as much smoke. I'll bring the 777 to the next match along with the brass you wanted. I have a habit of over-cleaning my guns anyway, so soot doesn't bother me a bit! When are you going to get a second C&B and bring them to play? I'm so hooked on my Remingtons that my 73's might start collecting rust. The only thing that might bring me back to FC would be a pair of 73's or Vaqueros in .44 WCF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I was whacking them on my driveway! If the bullet protrudes past the top of reloading press, with a die removed, you can also pull them with a large side cutter pliers using the press handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I'll bring the 777 to the next match along with the brass you wanted. I have a habit of over-cleaning my guns anyway, so soot doesn't bother me a bit! When are you going to get a second C&B and bring them to play? I'm so hooked on my Remingtons that my 73's might start collecting rust. The only thing that might bring me back to FC would be a pair of 73's or Vaqueros in .44 WCF. I need to fix my second one (main spring broke) and get another pair of holsters, since both C&B revolvers have 7 1/2" barrels. Are you perchance bringing that spiffy new 73 you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I have used fillers for BP and the low pressure subs for years with no problems BUT. I did take heed to the practice of using backer rod as a filler for BP subs. The argument presented was that backer rod actually disintegrated almost instantly and was thus the equivalent of air space. Not being sure how this would apply to use with the subs I stopped such use and went to grits for use as a filler in all of my smoky cartridges. I do sift grits to remove as much of the dust as possible and I pack grits topped loads a bit tighter than full BP loads. I now only use subs+filler in 44Win and 45Colt rifle loads, while full case loads of the little Cowboy45Special is my go to for revolvers at the moment. My pair of 44Win revolvers are being put on the fast track for a pair of 44spl cylinders to allow full load 44Russian cartridges. Grits are a pain to drop from most powder measures and do tend to clog the works down rather quickly, even after sifting as much dust as possible but I tend to think that when packed tightly, they are simply inert and only add slightly to the overall weight of the projectile. PS:The above mention of air space with subs is a bit of of a mystery to me. I have not seen any official claim that air space in subs is equal to air space in BP cartridges?? I think the subs I have used(Clean Shot, APP and Pinnacle) actually recommended full case BUT non-compressed loads for best results. I have seen many references to fokes getting poor results with less than full case BP substitute loads but none have included dangerous situations from air space. I do not know so YMMV?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ah uses filler,,, Just filler-up till you get 3/16 of an inch compression when you seat the bullet. SEE the case is filled. Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 I need to fix my second one (main spring broke) and get another pair of holsters, since both C&B revolvers have 7 1/2" barrels. Are you perchance bringing that spiffy new 73 you got? I *WILL* be bringing it! I got it this weekend and took it to the IWLA range with 75 rounds of full-bore .44 WCF and the cases popped out with not a trace of fouling on the outside! The carrier was still spotless at the end of the session! Cody did his magic and she shoots like a dream! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Henry Quick Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ah uses filler,,, Just filler-up till you get 3/16 of an inch compression when you seat the bullet. SEE the case is filled. Jabez Cowboy Roger that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rodgers Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I have used 777 in FFFG witness my uberti model p's in 44/40. Just hold on. A full load of 777 is great in the 44 Russian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I have used 777 in FFFG witness my uberti model p's in 44/40. Just hold on. A full load of 777 is great in the 44 Russian. The label on the bottle says in red, 777 3f is not to be used in cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Trapper Tom Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I'm new to the wire even though I've been shooting cas for almost nine years. After knob Creek made me match directori started checking it out. I've learned a lot from those of you that frequent the wire I shoot frontier cartridge using RS. Used triple seven for awhile. I found that I got more smoke using RS This is what concerns me. I've always been an individuals that likes to load when I am in the mood. At such times I make an entire day of it. Hence I will suddenly load 600 to 800 rounds in a two to three day period. Therefore keeping a lot of ammo loaded for months at a time. I use cornmeal for a filler.y My shooting partner, Cedar River Kid, taught me most everything I know about reloading. He loads on the fly. I have never had an issue, I shoot ruger new vaqueros in 45lc. Also a uberti 73. After reading these posts I have to admit I'm getting worried. Some of my ammo sits loaded for up to 9 months at a time. I've never felt any problems nor detected any. However, other particapants have always said that I put off a lot more smoke. We shoot the same powder/cornmeal load. After reading your post I'm worried about damaging my revolvers or rifle. Close inspection so far shows no damage, assuming I know what to look for. I currently have 1100 rounds loaded. Although I have never had a single issue in nine years, do I need to change my habits to avoid potential consequences that could effect fellow shooters Thanks for any input. Tennessee Trapper Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I would not tend to think of months as long term storage. Even then, is there enough moisture difference between the grits and the loading powders for there to be some great disparity that would actually cause excessively rapid moisture transfer?? Knowing how grits (or meal) are packaged and stored, I really doubt it. I suspect that if there were an actual transfer, it would be moisture going from the meal to the powder. What if any role would graphite and/or other powder coatings play in this. Famous last words, my experience with short term storage, one year or less, has never indicated any problems with my particular BP substitute loads! I think there might be instances where 'the factory' just never tested there products for certain situations, and so, you will always get a firm "NO" in the place of an honest "We really do not know" and they are not going to invest huge sums of money into testing for something that only pops up rarely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Trapper Tom Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Thanks Slowhand Bob, I'm disabled retired and spend a lot of time home alone. Tend to have to much time worrying. Its good to hear some support towards not having to pull the bullets. Which incidently I would do if I needed. In addition to what you said about the moisture, I have always kept the cornmeal sealed and in the safe with the dehumidifier. It keeps it perfectly dry and it meters really good from my lee powder drop. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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